Campo Santo, developer of Firewatch has joined Valve

Quoting: MblackwellSearch for the words "backup" and "copy" in the Steam TOS and be amazed.

The only mention of backup that I see is about backing up your system itself, before using any beta versions (I assume as a precaution in case they bork your whole system). So it's unrelated to the above:

QuoteIf you decide to install and/or use Beta Software, you shall only use it in compliance with its purposes, i.e. for testing and improvement purposes and in any case not on a system or for purposes where the malfunction of the Beta Software can cause any kind of damage. In particular, maintain full backups of any system that you choose to install Beta Software on.

Regarding copying, here is the relevant part I assume you are referring to:

QuoteYou may not use the Content and Services for any purpose other than the permitted access to Steam and your Subscriptions, and to make personal, non-commercial use of your Subscriptions, except as otherwise permitted by this Agreement or applicable Subscription Terms.

QuoteExcept as otherwise permitted under this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use), or under applicable law notwithstanding these restrictions, you may not, in whole or in part, copy, photocopy, reproduce, publish, distribute, translate, reverse engineer, derive source code from, modify, disassemble, decompile, create derivative works based on, or remove any proprietary notices or labels from the Content and Services or any software accessed via Steam without the prior consent, in writing, of Valve.

TL;DR: you may not copy.


Last edited by Shmerl on 26 April 2018 at 1:33 am UTC

That means I'm not allowed to make a copy of this application: https://store.steampowered.com/app/404790/

This really shows that legal speech is not literal 100% fit for *every and all* cases in real life. That's just how it is. Ideally, it should be, and I think everybody agrees on that. But I don't think it's possible every time. Every single legal document has this problem.

Edit: As English is not my native tongue: What does "may not" mean? Shouldn't it be "must not" for a definitive "don't ever do this"?


Last edited by Doc Angelo on 26 April 2018 at 10:14 am UTC

Quoting: Doc AngeloEdit: As English is not my native tongue: What does "may not" mean? Shouldn't it be "must not" for a definitive "don't ever do this"?

It means "you are not allowed to" in this context.

Quoting: Maelrane

Quoting: Doc AngeloValve can still release the game on Steam without DRM protection. Half-Life 2 is DRM free for example.

Steam itself is DRM.

Albeit it's the only one I accept and can live with, it is, per definition, DRM.

People seem to have this misconception about steam. It is NOT DRM. It is a storefront which provides optional DRM. It is up to developers to use it. You can publish to steam without using the steam DRM. It's really easy to tell if a game has been DRMed. Run the executable from a terminal. If it changes your steam status then it's using the steam API and most likely will refuse to run without steam. If not then you can copy and move that game around and it will run just fine without steam. I know for example super hot is DRM free. There are others. Honestly even the DRM valve provides is really weak. They tell you on the steam works developer page not to rely on it for preventing piracy so even valve recognizes it's weak. Honestly I wouldn't even call it DRM. From a development standpoint it's a single method call that just ensures your game is running through steam which is technically DRM but it's also just a damn easy way to make sure any following calls to the steam API will go through.


Last edited by Scoopta on 26 April 2018 at 10:32 am UTC

Quoting: GuestA storefront that can remove titles from your hard drive without your permission is, to me, if not DRM in name, then DRM in nature.
The reliance on Steam for many games is just as bad. No Steam? Can't play. Sometimes that turns into no Steam online, can't play. Technicalities aside, it's worth remembering that you can only play your games so long as Valve permit, and while it's technically possible to unhook some titles from Steam via (country dependent) legal personal backups, Valve don't exactly encourage that. Nothing against Valve there, more that people should really be more aware of what Steam really is.

I mean, this thread got derailed so much anyway, what the hell.

You're not wrong regarding DRMed titles on Steam. But this talk is about games on Steam without DRM. You can play those whenever you like.

Quoting: GuestNot necessarily. The games may depend on Steam features or libraries (there are games I cannot run because the "steam runtime" libs are borked).

There are some games that need specific libraries to run. That's an old problem with Linux gaming. I remember that I had to run Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri with a line like this: "LD_PRELOAD=/path/to/libraries ./SMAX". I bought this game retail on a disc, not for or via Steam. If anything, Valve made this more easy with their libs. A lot, I think.

If a game has certain features like leader boards or achievement but works otherwise, there is no problem if it still works as intended.

If there is no mechanism preventing you from copying the game files to another machine (without Steam installed) and the game still runs, there are DRM issues.

Quoting: GuestAnd you have to manually copy away from any Steam control. Otherwise Valve can basically delete your game anytime they want.

I assume you are talking about keys from various reseller sites that get deactivated when there was fraud involved. That of course sucks, but I made it a habit to never buy keys from dubious sources.

Apart from that, I never heard that Valve removed a game from a library.


Last edited by Doc Angelo on 26 April 2018 at 5:58 pm UTC

Quoting: GuestNeg. I mean they can delete your access to the game, and remove it from your hard drive entirely.

Never heard of that. Why would they do that? Do you have a source for that?

Quoting: GuestYes, I have a source. Me. In details here, it was a demo, downloaded via Steam itself. It was later decided (either by Valve themselves, or a ratings board) that the demo wasn't suitable for the country. The next time I fired up Steam, the game (demo, in this case) was summarily removed in its entirety - without notification to me. I had to go hunting for what happened.

Thanks for the answer! Out of interest: Which developer decided to do that and which game was it?

Quoting: GuestRebellion, with Sega as publisher. Demo was AvP (2010).

I assume it was this game and demo: https://steamdb.info/app/34200/depots/

Just out of interest: Did you really check the file system and all the files and the directory were gone? Or was the directory still there, and the last update was just "empty" and therefor updated the game directory with completely nothing - essentially deleting all files (except the directory)?

After some googling, I only found some demos and games that were delisted in the store, but still downloadable and accessible for people who already owned it.

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Scoopta

Quoting: Maelrane

Quoting: Doc AngeloValve can still release the game on Steam without DRM protection. Half-Life 2 is DRM free for example.

Steam itself is DRM.

Albeit it's the only one I accept and can live with, it is, per definition, DRM.

People seem to have this misconception about steam. It is NOT DRM. It is a storefront which provides optional DRM. It is up to developers to use it. You can publish to steam without using the steam DRM. It's really easy to tell if a game has been DRMed. Run the executable from a terminal. If it changes your steam status then it's using the steam API and most likely will refuse to run without steam. If not then you can copy and move that game around and it will run just fine without steam. I know for example super hot is DRM free. There are others. Honestly even the DRM valve provides is really weak. They tell you on the steam works developer page not to rely on it for preventing piracy so even valve recognizes it's weak. Honestly I wouldn't even call it DRM. From a development standpoint it's a single method call that just ensures your game is running through steam which is technically DRM but it's also just a damn easy way to make sure any following calls to the steam API will go through.

A storefront that can remove titles from your hard drive without your permission is, to me, if not DRM in name, then DRM in nature.
The reliance on Steam for many games is just as bad. No Steam? Can't play. Sometimes that turns into no Steam online, can't play. Technicalities aside, it's worth remembering that you can only play your games so long as Valve permit, and while it's technically possible to unhook some titles from Steam via (country dependent) legal personal backups, Valve don't exactly encourage that. Nothing against Valve there, more that people should really be more aware of what Steam really is.

I mean, this thread got derailed so much anyway, what the hell.

I disagree simply because once you download a game from steam(assuming it doesn't use the steam DRM) nothing stops you from making a backup of it. Even if steam died the games on steam that don't use the DRM could still be played without going out of your way to circumvent anything. That's why I say steam is primarily a storefront not just DRM.