Campo Santo, developer of Firewatch has joined Valve

It seems very unlikely, but if we have to stop providing access to GOG services and GOG content permanently (not because of any breach by you), we will try to give you at least sixty (60) days advance notice by posting a note on www.gog.com and sending an email to every registered users – during that time you should be able to download any GOG content you purchased.

So they make clear, that you still will be permitted to use your purchases (backed up naturally).

Also, they point out this:

If you would like us to delete your account please contact our Support Team here. Termination will not affect already existing rights or obligations of us or you.

I.e. you can close GOG account yourself, and still have the right to use your purchases.

Plus :

In the very unlikely situation that we have to stop running GOG.com we'll do our best to give you advance notice, so that you can download and safely store all your DRM-free content.

This is how I see it: The games are neither owned by the user nor Steam/GOG. The developer/publisher is the only one actually owning the game in its entirety. If a developer/publisher releases a game without DRM, they are OK with you to back up this game and use it however you want for personal usage.

It's complicated. Full ownership can only be attributed to the publisher / creator or whoever holds the rights on this work. They give you partial ownership of it. I.e. you can use it, but you can't for example start making copies of it for others. Your ownership can extend to something like first sale doctrine, though it's a moot topic for digital goods.

But overall yes, you don't have complete ownership. However focus on DRM-free doesn't imply that you need full one (i.e. like copy to others). DRM-free simply means that the owner should not prevent / restrict you from using it, if you legally paid for it. So it means ability to back it up, not depending on any service existing / not existing and so on.


Last edited by Shmerl on 22 April 2018 at 8:16 pm UTC

Can you move these games to another of your machines using an external HDD?

Yes you can. Get yourself informed before dumping rants.

To illustrate it: Apotheon. Comes with normal binaries (or the shell script). Double click these - game starts. No Steam client started beforehand, no Steam client starts in the background.

They quite clearly say a few key points here:

1. Steam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of Content and Services onto your computer.

That precludes manual installation from the backup you referred to. I.e. doing it manually would be violation of their TOS.

2. This license ends upon termination of (a) this Agreement or (b) a Subscription that includes the license.

I.e. if your account is terminated or Steam closes down (both would mean end of the subscription naturally), you aren't allowed to install or use those games anymore.

All that fits into restriction on digital goods after purchase.

That's a license agreement. Not DRM. Besides: It says something about the initial download and installation. Nothing about backups.

I think the term DRM generally only applies to technical measures that restrict the use of a product. Licenses and legal restrictions are a related but separate subject.

I think the term DRM generally only applies to technical measures that restrict the use of a product. Licenses and legal restrictions are a related but separate subject.

I'd agree. Licenses and legal measures may be Rights Management, but they are not Digital. Although there are odd interactions--it has been pointed out that many lame encryption schemes exist not so much out of any hope of stopping anyone from accessing the encrypted content as to trigger massive legal penalties for the defeating of encryption in e.g. the DMCA.

I think the term DRM generally only applies to technical measures that restrict the use of a product. Licenses and legal restrictions are a related but separate subject.

If TOS requires you to use Steam to install the game, and then you go ahead and install it without it, DMCA-1201 and similar anti-circumvention garbage would treat it as a violation, which indirectly indicates that something like Steam is DRM because of that TOS. DRM was always about a combination of "measures" with legal garbage attached to them.


Last edited by Shmerl on 22 April 2018 at 9:17 pm UTC

And this whole discussion is why, on the GOG forums, we refer to these games as "games you can play without the Steam client".

If you call them DRM-free, arguments ensue. Calling them "games you can play without the Steam client" accurately describes them, while avoiding the arguments.

And this whole discussion is why, on the GOG forums, we refer to these games as "games you can play without the Steam client".

If you call them DRM-free, arguments ensue. Calling them "games you can play without the Steam client" accurately describes them, while avoiding the arguments.

Well... Crysis 3 and Battlefield 1 are "games you can play without the Steam client", but they are not DRMFREE at all...

Seriously, I can accept DRM for subscription services like Origin Access, because the games are not yours (for 5U$D per month You can play a lot of games without actually buying them)... Valve must take a note of that.

I recommend DRM exclusively for Online Multiplayer games, because cheaters must be exterminated from the gaming world and DRM can help.. Lan multiplayers must be DRMFREE

But, infecting a SINGLEPLAYER game (like LIS or Fallout 4, for example) with DRM is something I don't accept...
When a company infect a SINGLEPLAYER game with DRM (call it Denuvo, Steamworks, Uplay, whatever) is because that company really doesn't trust in their consumers... And when a gaming company doesn't trust in Us, the consumers, it doesn't deserve our money... Is that simple..

It will be useful to have a list of Steam games for Linux that can run without the client running in the background...

This list doesn't help much because it has a lot of Windows only games..

It's just that some keep claiming that Steam isn't DRM. Arguments that explain how it is DRM were brought many times, so I'm not sure why this topic comes up every so often, but I guess some define DRM only in limited way, that's why they can think that Steam itself isn't one.

*Sigh*

Technically-speaking, Steam isn't DRM... It is an "ecosystem" and just like the Apple iStore or Google Play Store, you're effectively locked-in to that ecosystem indefinitely.

Admittedly, Valve Software have made some aspects of that ecosystem more appealing than they otherwise would be - such as the "buy it once, play it on any supported operating system" thing... But at the end of the day, you're still forced into Valve Software's ecosystem.

Yes GOG.com - my preferred game store (these days, I only buy from Steam if the game is not available through or not likely to come to GOG.com) - offers its games without any form of DRM... And that's important - but so is the advantage of not being locked into a proprietary ecosystem, in fact they're probably just as important as each other.

You can choose to lock yourself into GOG.com's ecosystem of course, with "Galaxy" or whatever they call it... But for the time being, this is optional and as far as we know, not likely to change in the foreseeable future.

In other words, the people arguing GOG.com over Steam above have a very valid point, but they have the terminology completely wrong...


Last edited by Cyba.Cowboy on 23 April 2018 at 2:41 am UTC

Lock-in is surely a problem, and Steam has it too. But DRM and lock-in aren't the same thing. Though they can be related in practice (such as DRM causing lock-in).

But DRM and lock-in aren't the same thing. Though they can be related in practice (such as DRM causing lock-in).

That's what I just said, except in much more detail...


Last edited by Cyba.Cowboy on 23 April 2018 at 3:27 am UTC

I liked the part where you guys talked about Steam/GOG/DRM for the billionth time.

I liked the part where you guys talked about Steam/GOG/DRM for the billionth time.

Indeed... the interesting information is that Henry was formally known as Gordon who was tired of fighting aliens invasion and decided to retired himself in a watchtower in Wyoming! ^_^


Last edited by riusma on 23 April 2018 at 7:07 am UTC

It is impossible to do the same with Steam games..
Can you move these games to another of your machines using an external HDD?

One word: YES.

But I don't know why go GOG vs. Steam war when this thread ain't about that at all. Go fancy your preffered game saler in one of the threads about that.

For the actual news, I hope this new game is better than the first one.


Last edited by bolokanar on 23 April 2018 at 8:37 am UTC

Other people are discussion HL3 when getting this news, we're talking about DRM... :-/

I like it Valve's getting into making games again. I don't expect HL3 to be ever made. It couldn't ever live up to the expectations. Portal 3 would be nice, although Portal Stories: Mel was, difficulty-wise, better than I would ever expect of a Valve Portal. Let's see what they're coming up with. Something like Firewatch would make me happy as well.

2.1 We give you and other GOG users the personal right (known legally as a 'licence') to use GOG services and to download and/or stream (depending on the content) and use GOG content. This licence is for your personal use. We can stop or suspend this licence in some situations, which are explained later on.

3.1 To buy GOG content from GOG services, and in some cases to play/use GOG content where our partners require use of a GOG account, you will need to set up a GOG account. This will involve creating a password (which is encrypted so we can’t access it) and a username, plus giving us (for identification purposes) your email address. Please make sure your login credentials are kept secure and your account is used properly. In your GOG Account settings you can also optionally set your country of residence, birthday and avatar. Our Privacy Policy gives more detail about the information we collect from you and how we use it and protect it. It's at Privacy Policy.

3.3 Your GOG account and GOG content are personal to you and cannot be shared with, sold, gifted or transferred to anyone else. Your access to and use of them is subject to GOG’s rules which are set out here, as updated or amended when necessary.

11. RULES FOR USING GOG SERVICES

11.1 Please follow these rules regarding the GOG services and GOG content. Please read these rules carefully since failure to follow them (particularly those in relation to cheating) will be considered a material breach of this Agreement, which could lead to suspension or cancellation of your access to GOG Services. Here are the rules:

17.2. Our right to terminate the Agreement. If you materially breach this Agreement, we reserve the right to suspend or cancel your access to GOG services and GOG content. By material breach of the Agreement we mean a serious breach which could cause significant harm to GOG, GOG users, as well as, in particular breach of the provisions of section 11 above. If we suspend or cancel your access to GOG services or GOG conent we'll take reasonable steps to contact you to explain why we've done this and what (if anything) you can do as a result.

22.1 We may change this Agreement if it's necessary e.g. for legal reasons or to reflect changes in GOG services or GOG content. If so, we will make the changed Agreement available online at here and (if you have a GOG account) email you to let you know about the changes

22.3 If you don't agree to those changes (regardless of whether you email us), then unfortunately we must ask you to cease using GOG services and GOG content. We're sorry we have to say that, but we hope you'll appreciate that for GOG.com to work properly we need to have everyone using it under the same rules instead of different people having different rules. That's why we encourage you to get in contact if you have queries or concerns.

GOG tries to hide it with casual language, but by this very strict definition of DRM you have invented the website and service itself are also DRM.

I think the term DRM generally only applies to technical measures that restrict the use of a product. Licenses and legal restrictions are a related but separate subject.

If TOS requires you to use Steam to install the game, and then you go ahead and install it without it, DMCA-1201 and similar anti-circumvention garbage would treat it as a violation, which indirectly indicates that something like Steam is DRM because of that TOS. DRM was always about a combination of "measures" with legal garbage attached to them.

Let me get this straight, you are saying that you can buy a game on GOG and then go to piratebay and download it from there, and the GOG TOS allows that? I thought that you still need to download it from gog.com ....

Guys this topic leads nowhere... :(

Like jens said:

it is either 100% one side or 100% the other, nearly no in-between, at least not outspoken

Well, it isn't. It's required for initial download, not reinstallation. End of discussion.

I trust their TOS more than your assumptions. So the discussion ends pretty much when you try to say it's OK to violate their TOS when using their games.

Okay, but as others have pointed out above, all vendors have Terms of Service. The point at issue here is whether the Steam client, per se, is DRM; whether it's used to manage those Terms. It isn't. You're moving the goalposts.


Last edited by Dunc on 23 April 2018 at 3:05 pm UTC