Campo Santo, developer of Firewatch has joined Valve

Let me get this straight, you are saying that you can buy a game on GOG and then go to piratebay and download it from there, and the GOG TOS allows that? I thought that you still need to download it from gog.com ....

GOG allows you to install the game from the personal backup. Steam does not (they don't necessarily enforce that for each game, but they still don't allow it). Analyze the difference.


Last edited by Shmerl on 23 April 2018 at 3:15 pm UTC

Okay, but as others have pointed out above, all vendors have Terms of Service.

Yes, and it's important what those terms are. I don't agree with claims above that GOG terms are the same.

Let me get this straight, you are saying that you can buy a game on GOG and then go to piratebay and download it from there, and the GOG TOS allows that? I thought that you still need to download it from gog.com ....

GOG allows you to install the game from the personal backup. Steam does not (they don't necessarily enforce that for each game, but they still don't allow it). Analyze the difference.

That's really confusing, so Steam TOS don't allow you to backup your games, and yet in my steam library when I right click a game there is "Backup Game Files"

That's really confusing, so Steam TOS don't allow you to backup your games, and yet in my steam library when I right click a game there is "Backup Game Files"

And I assume same Steam client is needed to perform restore from it? I said TOS doesn't allow manual backup restore which is a requirement for DRM-free.


Last edited by Shmerl on 23 April 2018 at 4:32 pm UTC

"Steam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of Content and Services onto your computer."
@Shmerl You have a problem with these words "require the automatic download and installation"
I can't understand your interpretation of that as TOS not allowing manual backup. I mean clicking "Backup Game Files" is not an automatic process.
To summarize:
1. Steam TOS wording says that it needs to install and auto-update your games, and if you move your games you can't auto-update so that means you break the TOS.
2. They have not clarified what happens with your purchased games if they shut the store down.
3. Valve are evil so if they do close the store they won't allow you to play the DRM-Free games that you have purchased.
Am I missing something?


EDIT:How do I tag a user? @ doesn't work.


Last edited by BOYSSSSS on 23 April 2018 at 5:48 pm UTC

I mean clicking "Backup Game Files" is not an automatic process.

The problem is with restoring from backup. Do you need Steam client to restore what Steam client backed up?

I mean clicking "Backup Game Files" is not an automatic process.

The problem is with restoring from backup. Do you need Steam client to restore what Steam client backed up?

Yes, but again nothing is said in the TOS about backups.
It seems you have a problem with the wording "require the automatic download and installation" of the TOS, no matter how you look at it the steam backup is not automatic so by that logic Valve is giving you a tool to break their TOS.

Yes

So you can't restore it without the Steam client. It's very well aligned with the TOS, which implies that it's required for installation (which should cover official backup restoration). And you aren't even allowed to use the client in case when you aren't Steam user anymore. Or you simply won't be able to, if Steam closes down and all you are left with are some DRMed backups. That means in those scenarios, your backups will be useless. Q.E.D.

All that illustrates quite well that Steam is DRMed by its nature. DRM-free scenario would mean that you can back up your package, and restore it later without any requirement for such clients, both technical and contractual.


Last edited by Shmerl on 23 April 2018 at 6:11 pm UTC

The Backup/Restore-Wizard is a tool within Steam. You don't have to use this feature to back up your games. You can backup any game by just copying/compressing the game folder. DRMed games won't work without Steam, of course. But the ones without DRM do.

The only thing that is left are the different interpretations of the vague TOS of both Steam and GOG.

One thing to consider: If developers/publisher would know that the user wouldn't be allowed to play their game without a Steam account anyway, why would they choose to not use DRM? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


Last edited by Doc Angelo on 23 April 2018 at 6:20 pm UTC

The Backup/Restore-Wizard is a tool within Steam. You don't have to use this feature to back up your games. You can backup any game by just copying/compressing the game folder.

That's not what TOS says. Technically you can copy files yourself, but it would run afoul of TOS saying that you need their client for installation. At least that's how I understand it. And that's what my point above was. And if it's incorrect, why does the official backup tool make it impossible to restore it back without the client?


Last edited by Shmerl on 23 April 2018 at 6:21 pm UTC

Sigh, I get what you mean, you need the client to install or restore and Valve don't have an official position on what they will do if they close (although I remember they said there would be a way for steam users to play their games if that ever happened)
Then again you assume they are just evil and will make sure their users lose all their games, which would make no sense, GabeN would become the most hated person on the planet :D

I really don't get all the fuss about the dependency to Steam authentication. When I purchase a game I do this with the purpose of playing the game on my preferred (and only) gaming device. Steam on Linux allows me to do this without any of the heavy DRM stuff the poor Windows people have to deal with (I would not accept that too). No requirement to install something as root or whatsoever. Combined with convenience Steam offers (e.g. auto update, just one party for money transfer, etc.) and the willingness of Valve to invest some resources in Linux the perfect match for me.

I should add that I'm not a collector. I rarely watch a movie twice or read a book twice. Same with games, I think I have never finished a game more than once. May be that is the reason why I can easily accept the risk that there is a very minimal chance that my game library ends up empty when Valve closes their doors. That said I don't think that this will happen in my life time. I think chances are much much higher that sooner than this my games wont start anymore* due to the game having a dependency to some outdated library that is no longer there. Having a game on your external hd wont't help you in this case either ;).

Steam has I guess indeed some limited legal and technical control over my purchased games. But hey, these are only games, not over something personal like my job, kids, personal photo archive, whatever. I can certainly live with the restrictions. And furthermore, if Steam authentication makes publishers and developers think that their have some control (and I sympathize with their wishes for control) regardless or not if this has any practical effect, then I'm happily willing to accept this in its current form and help them with this feeling to get more and more big games to Linux land.

Anyway, to each his own, I prefer to play my games now and easily move on, than to archive them till the end of time.

* without considerable effort

Edit: typos.


Last edited by jens on 23 April 2018 at 6:30 pm UTC

And if it's incorrect, why does the official backup tool make it impossible to restore it back without the client?

Because you could give the game to a user that hasn't paid for the game.


Last edited by BOYSSSSS on 23 April 2018 at 6:28 pm UTC

Then again you assume they are just evil and will make sure their users lose all their games, which would make no sense, GabeN would become the most hated person on the planet :D

No, I don't assume anything. I'm working with current facts. There is TOS (legal document), and there is their client. All hypothetical "what would happen if" can be based on that, not on what they didn't say.

And DRM free means, that you now can make a backup, and legally install it later, even if the store closes down. That you can establish now, explicitly.

And if it's incorrect, why does the official backup tool make it impossible to restore it back without the client?

Because you could give the game to a user that hasn't paid for the game.

Which implies DRM logic, bingo! Now you are starting to get the point.


Last edited by Shmerl on 23 April 2018 at 7:32 pm UTC

So, Half Life 3 will be set in a a vast, eerie, solitary laboratory complex with Alyx on a radio? Sounds good.

Which implies DRM logic, bingo! Now you are starting to get the point.

So you consider DRM the ability to prevent a Steam user from giving a game to another Steam user? You have Steam Family Sharing for that. This Steam backup tool needs to be able to backup DRM-Free AND DRM games so theres no surprise there being some obstacle, although I don't see what the point of it is, you can just copy and archive your Games.
I consider a game DRM-Free, if I can copy the game to another PC and play it without the Steam Client and Internet connection.
Obviously that's not enough for you.

Which implies DRM logic, bingo! Now you are starting to get the point.

So you consider DRM the ability to prevent a Steam user from giving a game to another Steam user?

I was talking about the intent of the DRM, not about the user. Trying to "prevent copying" is preemptive policing that DRM attempts to achieve. It doesn't care whether user wants to copy it for personal backup (which should be perfectly fine). DRM can't distinguish the purpose of copying. I.e. it uses presumption of guilt by default, that's exactly why DRM is overreaching and unethical.


Last edited by Shmerl on 23 April 2018 at 8:58 pm UTC

Which implies DRM logic, bingo! Now you are starting to get the point.

So you consider DRM the ability to prevent a Steam user from giving a game to another Steam user?

I was talking about the intent of the DRM, not about the user. Trying to "prevent copying" is preemptive policing that DRM attempts to achieve. It doesn't care whether user wants to copy it for personal backup (which should be perfectly fine). DRM can't distinguish the purpose of copying. I.e. it uses presumption of guilt by default, that's exactly why DRM is overreaching and unethical.

Again you answer one of my points and ignore the others. Would you agree that Steam Backup Tool is used for games that are supposed to have DRM and that the reason there is an obstacle put in Steam Backup Tool is extra protection for those games that do have DRM?
Do you acknowledge that there are DRM-Free games from Steam that you can just copy to another computer without Steam and play them?

Again you answer one of my points and ignore the others. Would you agree that Steam Backup Tool is used for games that are supposed to have DRM and that the reason there is an obstacle put in Steam Backup Tool is extra protection for those games that do have DRM?

Steam backup is the tool Steam authorize you to use to backup / restore. Manual method is not allowed according to Steam TOS. So Steam doesn't care whether games use some internal DRM or not, Steam itself is DRM in this case. This is quite clear, I'm not sure what needs more clarification in this case.

Do you acknowledge that there are DRM-Free games from Steam that you can just copy to another computer without Steam and play them?

I don't acknowledge that you can legally do it. Steam TOS forbids it.

Steam itself is DRM.

Albeit it's the only one I accept and can live with, it is, per definition, DRM.

I don't think so. But maybe we have different definitions of what DRM means.

The Steam client is the very same as GOG Galaxy or the GOG website. You can buy and download games. Valve has their own DRM implementation (part of Steamworks), but it's completely optional. As a developer or publisher, you don't have to use the DRM tools provided by Steam, or your own DRM. You can just not use any DRM and still have your game on Steam.

http://steam.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_DRM-free_games

Don't even try to argue with fanatics, it won't lead anywhere.

The one who behaves like a fanatic here is you. You cant stand on your argument, so you have to call someone else a fanatic.
I can see some DRM-FREE fanatics here, to the point that they don't buy LINUX games because they are only on Steam, ridiculous.