Harebrained Schemes confirm again Linux support for BATTLETECH is a high priority

Quoting: devnullIt's virtue signaling and identity politics, nothing more.

Exactly. Nothing more. (Not sure I'd use the same terms you do, but I don't care enough to take the bait.)

I know many people feel strongly about these issues for various reasons, but I still don't see why you pretend this is somehow relevant to the topic. So what if the game lets you choose a pronoun or put a beard on a lady? Makes no damn difference to my enjoyment of a game.

QuoteI know many people feel strongly about these issues for various reasons, but I still don't see why you pretend this is somehow relevant to the topic.

Because it wasn't just putting a beard on a lady.

Quoting: devnullThis isn't Life is Strange where left/alt left liberal correctly fits the games narrative. It's literally about battling robots.

But there is gender diversity out in the real world and (a lot of) science fiction. The maker of the original Battletech himself is heavily involved in the development of this game, so it can be as nuanced as he wants it to be. Most people have gotten over the fact that these people exist and are prevalent through our society and media. Their appearance doesn't signal that their gender identity needs to be addressed or discussed (nor encapsulate specific political leanings).

Why do we need to be constantly coddled in some white male heterosexual power fantasy? Surely that's the "agenda pushing" here as it's scope is narrower and message more specific.

Quoting: Patola

Quoting: slaapliedjeWhat? I knew about homosexual animals, I also know those are mutations (yes Dawkins himself said so in the video you linked. The "Pirate" is your mutation there. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm saying that's just the way it is, and that yes some animals are bi, some are gay, but if there weren't a large portion of them that were straight/bi they would die off, right? Like literally no one would be reproducing and the species would have no progenitors.

Wow. You've got your biology all wrong again. It seems you are not understanding. Let me try and explain: homo, bi and transsexuality have been verified as ubiquitous phenotypes in virtually all mammals. That means they are ancient and appeared even before mammals themselves. What's more, they have an enormous variety of manifestations and uses, and are associated to a large amount of different reproductive strategies.

That, alone, completely invalidates calling any of these things a "mutation". They are complex, they are often very specific, and they are impossible to appear in one generation. They take eons to evolve and take form. Genetically, they are composed of many genes acting simultaneously in a specific environment and population, and sometimes helped by epigenetics.

So, when you try to shift the perspective to "heterosexual+cis" for animals and try to characterize other strategies as a "mutation", it doesn't work. It is just absurd. Things are not this way. And while nothing in science can be said as definitively "proven", the evidence for the necessary presence of homo, bi and transexuality in animals is so overwhelming that it is unreasonable to argue otherwise. Specially if you try to argue otherwise with no hard data to present. You're just talking out of nothing, with not even a single scientific citation. You haven't even looked at my citations to respond to them. If these phenomena are occasional, how come so superior species are thoroughly described in Bruce Bagemihl's book? If it is just a fluke, how come he got so many photographs of large groups of animals consistently doing those things?

I'm pretty sure you're arguing just to argue here. Dawkins himself referred to them as a mutation. But that these were necessary for evolution. "An individual could then mutate" In all of the metaphor that he uses here explains reproduction within species quiet well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUxt--mMjwA

Quoting: PatolaNow, let's get on to "literally no one would be reproducing and the species would have no progenitors". I specifically addressed this point two times. But I can say more. This is simply not true. If you don't even know what the Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium and Ka/Ks is, you shouldn't really try to give an opinion: these are basics of population genetics, a hugely complicated field of biology with equations that precisely calculate the odds and reproductive output, beating any opinionated feeling about the matter. And they show that you are utterly wrong, because reproductive strategies are not straightforward. They sometimes involve copies of genes in relatives. They sometimes gain reproductive advantages through indirect means. They sometimes carry an opportunist feature that might not work every time, but when it works it offsets the failures by a large margin, and become largely adaptive. They sometimes work in balance with phenotypes designated by other genes, like the Evolutionary Stable Strategy I mentioned. Yes, it's a constant struggle to try and put these variables in equations, but it is doable - and then the numbers match the experimental data, showing that non-obvious reproductive strategies actually provide an edge to the species. It is difficult to explain because there are lots of cases, and each one has its own way of grinding that extra percentage points to the gene to get it in the next generations, and extracting the evolutionary pressure and advantages of just one of these usually might take at least decades of research. These are done by sociobiology (in the case of animals in general) and evolutionary psychology (in the specific case of hominins like us). There are lots of weird aspects to these matters, like why female spotted hyenas have erectable penises even though they greatly encumber copulation and pregnancy and the subtle social rewards, bonding and pacts of sex in primate species. None of these aspects could be dismissed by "mutation" or "error" or "mistake", again, they are complex traces which show the typical complexity and "illusion of design" of ages-long adaptations.

I never said that a mutation was an error. While mutation has a negative feel about it, it shouldn't in the mind of evolution, if it weren't for mutations in evolution... well evolution would not be a thing. Evolution doesn't work without it.

Mammals in general need a male and female to reproduce, this is fact. This is part of what makes them mammals. Though I guess chemically we've done this? https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4909-virgin-birth-mammal-rewrites-rules-of-biology/

Quoting: slaapliedjeThere was a video with Bill Nye where he discusses Bonobos, and he mentions a book that specifies that they being homosexual was more common within zoos or captivity.

Quoting: PatolaThat is a possible methodological failure of some studies which gauged homo and bisexuality in bonobos, true. However, it has not been settled. It still an ongoing investigation. And not all bonobo studies are with captive animals. Many are field studies. But there's more. Even if all the studies were made with captive bonobos, there are things that could not be simply explained by saying that they are more prone to heterosexuality in the wild. The homo and bisexual behavior exhibits a large amount of specific characteristics to clearly distinguish it from heterosexual behavior; where do these come from? They are shown to be instinctive and inherited; how did these instincts appear? The answer is, they did evolve because although the frequency in the wild might be different from captivity, the evolutionary history of the species had evolutionary pressure for these mating tactics to appear.

This book had a large field study and one in zoos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohFOHvcTC6I

Quoting: slaapliedjeSo tell me, let's say a plane with a sports team crashes on a deserted island. They spend 10 years there, bonding and surviving and living off the land. Eventually maybe they decide they need to let off some testosterone and start homosexual acts. This is pretty much their only course outside a wank here and there, or pure abstinence. Now let's say they come back to civilization, pretty sure there'd still be jerks that said they could have held out for 10 years..

Quoting: PatolaNow you're antropomorphizing animals to advance your point. It's not how this works. Biology is not a matter of feelings or comparing animals to humans, specially if you trying to analyze evolutionary history which makes such feelings and instincts appear on the first place. A male could be a surrogate for a female and there is a small set of situations where it is indeed the cause for homosexual acts in humans; the testosterone needs to be channeled, the energy needs to be spent, and e.g. in prisons this is indeed common. It might even be the seed for the appearance of certain homo, bi and/or transexual adaptation in our evolutionary past. But this is one of a large amount of cases in humans that does not automatically translate to animal behavior, and could have a varied number of different evolutionary outcomes. Take into account that even in our species, there is a large numbers of homosexual preferences, like males who prefer masculine males, others who prefer feminine males, females who shift their orientation through time according to the environment, and the likes. Usually, every different preference is an evolved intuitive strategy that comes from diverse origins. There is no single "mutation" that accounts for complex behaviors for something so strictly evolved as sexuality.

I'm not trying to anthropomorphize anything. I'm putting forth the situation where, because we have evolved the way we are, that if there was an island of all males, we would simply die off, because humanity as it stands needs both genders to propagate the species. Maybe one day in the far future we'll be like the Goobacks from South Park, where there is no gender and we all reproduce asexually or within labs.

Quoting: slaapliedjeLet's say they happen to luck out and somehow they had crashed on an island, but there were wars everywhere else and mankind had completely wiped each other out. So here's one team of all guys on a deserted island. Guess what? That's an evolutionary dead end. This is why there is no such thing as heteronormative. It's REQUIRED by evolution to actually BE ABLE to evolve! It doesn't matter if people have evolved and some of them have homosexual tendencies (I agree with the spectrum, people aren't 100% gay or 100% straight.)

This is why I say that homosexual/bisexual tendencies ARE an evolutionary thing. Apparently you missed me saying that in my other post. I said that it's an evolutionary thing due to overpopulation in a confined area. As per the Bonobos in a zoo being more likely to be homosexual than ones out in the wild.

Quoting: PatolaMaybe you are talking about the Mouse Utopia experiment, where indeed in an overpopulation setting the homosexual behavior of the population increased (specially in females). But I sorta missed your point here.

My point was as an evolutionary thing, I think it's built into the DNA of multiple species to handle over population by handling the birth gender/sexuality of it's members. So much of this discussion though has tried to separate humans from other animals. We're just like them, we just have cooler toys.

Quoting: slaapliedjeHell, with some of my previous hetero relationships, I'd rather go gay then have another like that!

Quoting: PatolaDon't antropomorphize. We are not discussing change of preferences in a human being's lifetime. We are discussing evolution and the appearance and evolution of homo, bi and transsexual traits. This is what allows or constrains the preferences to exist, these are the ultimate explanation.

Why is change of preference not an evolutionary thing as well, or even the possibility of one. As per my earlier all-male deserted island scenario. It's just as situational as it is evolutionary. Hell, evolution pretty much IS situational. Creature lives in habitat A, and survives there, but when that habitat starts to degrade and become unlivable (by whatever means), then either that species dies, or it evolves so it can move to habitat B, and so on.

Quoting: slaapliedjeBUT (all caps!) the reason for this discussion is the completely unnecessary inclusion of non-gendered people (yup, that's what I'm calling anyone who doesn't fit the yin/yang, pick one, don't be greedy like bisexuals.) in video games. Okay, let's say some science fiction writer starts writing a book now, and includes people of ambiguous sexuality/gender, and it becomes this huge hit and everyone's cool with it.

Quoting: PatolaI've cut the rest of your comment, because it is something we can agree with. I am not only annoyed by all this Social Justice ideology, I do legitimately fear it as the new type of censorship, oppression and tyranny. So, as I said, I am only mildly annoyed by the Battletech inclusion of "they" as a valid singular pronoun, but I am quite worried of this trend as a larger deterrent to free expression, and I wouldn't like to see it win at the end of the day.

Funny thing is, I think we're both agreeing on the same thing, we're just using different terms to define what we're talking about. :P

Quoting: NotYourRealName

Quoting: devnullThis isn't Life is Strange where left/alt left liberal correctly fits the games narrative. It's literally about battling robots.

But there is gender diversity out in the real world and (a lot of) science fiction. The maker of the original Battletech himself is heavily involved in the development of this game, so it can be as nuanced as he wants it to be. Most people have gotten over the fact that these people exist and are prevalent through our society and media. Their appearance doesn't signal that their gender identity needs to be addressed or discussed (nor encapsulate specific political leanings).

Why do we need to be constantly coddled in some white male heterosexual power fantasy? Surely that's the "agenda pushing" here as it's scope is narrower and message more specific.

See, that's the problem here though. Yes, I'm a white male. Do I think I'm special because of that? No. But I am tired of being called racist, misogynist, bigoted, etc just because I was born white and with man bits. We're now in a place in society where people are leaving open source projects because they are implementing codes of conduct which make them fear of potentially offending someone, we should probably step back for a moment and rethink what we're doing to each other. https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LLVM-Rafael-Espindola

It's reverse bigotry. "I'm so oppressed, white people all hate me, I'm so picked on." Face it, we're all assholes to each other. We just got to be not assholes enough so we don't kill each other.

As far as gender diversity being out there? For mankind you have Male/Female. Then Male that wants/thinks/is becoming female and you have female that wants/thinks/is becoming male. Let's just say 0 all the way to 1. It's Still binary, but with varying 0.x to 1 in between. I suggest we could just refer to each other as She/He/It. But you know that'll get shortened to SHIT. So when referring to mankind, I think I will just call them all SHITS and go on with my day. :)


Last edited by slaapliedje on 10 May 2018 at 5:53 am UTC

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: NotYourRealName

Quoting: devnullThis isn't Life is Strange where left/alt left liberal correctly fits the games narrative. It's literally about battling robots.

But there is gender diversity out in the real world and (a lot of) science fiction. The maker of the original Battletech himself is heavily involved in the development of this game, so it can be as nuanced as he wants it to be. Most people have gotten over the fact that these people exist and are prevalent through our society and media. Their appearance doesn't signal that their gender identity needs to be addressed or discussed (nor encapsulate specific political leanings).

Why do we need to be constantly coddled in some white male heterosexual power fantasy? Surely that's the "agenda pushing" here as it's scope is narrower and message more specific.

See, that's the problem here though. Yes, I'm a white male. Do I think I'm special because of that? No. But I am tired of being called racist, misogynist, bigoted, etc just because I was born white and with man bits. We're now in a place in society where people are leaving open source projects because they are implementing codes of conduct which make them fear of potentially offending someone, we should probably step back for a moment and rethink what we're doing to each other. https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LLVM-Rafael-Espindola

It's reverse bigotry. "I'm so oppressed, white people all hate me, I'm so picked on." Face it, we're all assholes to each other. We just got to be not assholes enough so we don't kill each other.

As far as gender diversity being out there? For mankind you have Male/Female. Then Male that wants/thinks/is becoming female and you have female that wants/thinks/is becoming male. Let's just say 0 all the way to 1. It's Still binary, but with varying 0.x to 1 in between. I suggest we could just refer to each other as She/He/It. But you know that'll get shortened to SHIT. So when referring to mankind, I think I will just call them all SHITS and go on with my day. :)

I'm a white male too. No one is calling us racist, misogynistic or bigoted because of this. Whoever has (apparently) done that is guilty of being both sexist and racist. I've heard this repeatedly bought up by right wing critics who try to straw-man arguments for inclusivity.

I've heard of that open source code of conduct, and I do wonder what particular passages are so repugnant that would cause them to leave the project. I've never had any problems myself & the codes seem largely natural and sensible.

You see, it's not reverse bigotry. They want the same thing as you (i.e. not making assumptions about you based on factors they have no control over). I'm sorry you have such a depressing view on humanity. I find that people are largely helpful and understanding to one another despite the vocal minority trying to convince us otherwise.

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: slaapliedjeSee, that's the problem here though. Yes, I'm a white male. Do I think I'm special because of that? No. But I am tired of being called racist, misogynist, bigoted, etc just because I was born white and with man bits. We're now in a place in society where people are leaving open source projects because they are implementing codes of conduct which make them fear of potentially offending someone, we should probably step back for a moment and rethink what we're doing to each other. https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LLVM-Rafael-Espindola

Don't trust what that site reports. Always go to the source and read it for yourself. The reason for Raphael quitting was not fear of offence, it was basically because there was a forced political inclusion code of conduct at all. The community used to be just focused on the technical side and stayed away from politics.

Yeah, my point was that it builds an environment of fear of being able to communicate without offending someone. Not that that was the reason Rafael left.

Quoting: NotYourRealName

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: NotYourRealName

Quoting: devnullThis isn't Life is Strange where left/alt left liberal correctly fits the games narrative. It's literally about battling robots.

But there is gender diversity out in the real world and (a lot of) science fiction. The maker of the original Battletech himself is heavily involved in the development of this game, so it can be as nuanced as he wants it to be. Most people have gotten over the fact that these people exist and are prevalent through our society and media. Their appearance doesn't signal that their gender identity needs to be addressed or discussed (nor encapsulate specific political leanings).

Why do we need to be constantly coddled in some white male heterosexual power fantasy? Surely that's the "agenda pushing" here as it's scope is narrower and message more specific.

See, that's the problem here though. Yes, I'm a white male. Do I think I'm special because of that? No. But I am tired of being called racist, misogynist, bigoted, etc just because I was born white and with man bits. We're now in a place in society where people are leaving open source projects because they are implementing codes of conduct which make them fear of potentially offending someone, we should probably step back for a moment and rethink what we're doing to each other. https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LLVM-Rafael-Espindola

It's reverse bigotry. "I'm so oppressed, white people all hate me, I'm so picked on." Face it, we're all assholes to each other. We just got to be not assholes enough so we don't kill each other.

As far as gender diversity being out there? For mankind you have Male/Female. Then Male that wants/thinks/is becoming female and you have female that wants/thinks/is becoming male. Let's just say 0 all the way to 1. It's Still binary, but with varying 0.x to 1 in between. I suggest we could just refer to each other as She/He/It. But you know that'll get shortened to SHIT. So when referring to mankind, I think I will just call them all SHITS and go on with my day. :)

I'm a white male too. No one is calling us racist, misogynistic or bigoted because of this. Whoever has (apparently) done that is guilty of being both sexist and racist. I've heard this repeatedly bought up by right wing critics who try to straw-man arguments for inclusivity.

I've heard of that open source code of conduct, and I do wonder what particular passages are so repugnant that would cause them to leave the project. I've never had any problems myself & the codes seem largely natural and sensible.

You see, it's not reverse bigotry. They want the same thing as you (i.e. not making assumptions about you based on factors they have no control over). I'm sorry you have such a depressing view on humanity. I find that people are largely helpful and understanding to one another despite the vocal minority trying to convince us otherwise.

Well, when there are companies who are hiring people because of their race or gender and not based on their skill level because 'we have too many white males here' (and yes, this is a thing that's happening apparently), it is basically bigotry, right? I believe some developers of FreeBSD left after they instituted the code of conduct as well. Forced diversity is dumb, and against anti-discriminatory laws.

A friend of mine said the company he works for had a higher management person comment that there were too many white people in the office he works at. How's that for reverse bigotry?

I'd agree with people largely being helpful and understanding. And being we're fans of gaming on Linux, we sort of know how vocal a minority can be :) Unfortunately some vocal minority groups are annoying the majority. Maybe that's the perspective of the people who game on Windows too? "We don't want those filthy Linux users playing games with us, don't port!" Or something..

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: NotYourRealName

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: NotYourRealName

Quoting: devnullThis isn't Life is Strange where left/alt left liberal correctly fits the games narrative. It's literally about battling robots.

But there is gender diversity out in the real world and (a lot of) science fiction. The maker of the original Battletech himself is heavily involved in the development of this game, so it can be as nuanced as he wants it to be. Most people have gotten over the fact that these people exist and are prevalent through our society and media. Their appearance doesn't signal that their gender identity needs to be addressed or discussed (nor encapsulate specific political leanings).

Why do we need to be constantly coddled in some white male heterosexual power fantasy? Surely that's the "agenda pushing" here as it's scope is narrower and message more specific.

See, that's the problem here though. Yes, I'm a white male. Do I think I'm special because of that? No. But I am tired of being called racist, misogynist, bigoted, etc just because I was born white and with man bits. We're now in a place in society where people are leaving open source projects because they are implementing codes of conduct which make them fear of potentially offending someone, we should probably step back for a moment and rethink what we're doing to each other. https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LLVM-Rafael-Espindola

It's reverse bigotry. "I'm so oppressed, white people all hate me, I'm so picked on." Face it, we're all assholes to each other. We just got to be not assholes enough so we don't kill each other.

As far as gender diversity being out there? For mankind you have Male/Female. Then Male that wants/thinks/is becoming female and you have female that wants/thinks/is becoming male. Let's just say 0 all the way to 1. It's Still binary, but with varying 0.x to 1 in between. I suggest we could just refer to each other as She/He/It. But you know that'll get shortened to SHIT. So when referring to mankind, I think I will just call them all SHITS and go on with my day. :)

I'm a white male too. No one is calling us racist, misogynistic or bigoted because of this. Whoever has (apparently) done that is guilty of being both sexist and racist. I've heard this repeatedly bought up by right wing critics who try to straw-man arguments for inclusivity.

I've heard of that open source code of conduct, and I do wonder what particular passages are so repugnant that would cause them to leave the project. I've never had any problems myself & the codes seem largely natural and sensible.

You see, it's not reverse bigotry. They want the same thing as you (i.e. not making assumptions about you based on factors they have no control over). I'm sorry you have such a depressing view on humanity. I find that people are largely helpful and understanding to one another despite the vocal minority trying to convince us otherwise.

Well, when there are companies who are hiring people because of their race or gender and not based on their skill level because 'we have too many white males here' (and yes, this is a thing that's happening apparently), it is basically bigotry, right? I believe some developers of FreeBSD left after they instituted the code of conduct as well. Forced diversity is dumb, and against anti-discriminatory laws.

A friend of mine said the company he works for had a higher management person comment that there were too many white people in the office he works at. How's that for reverse bigotry?

I'd agree with people largely being helpful and understanding. And being we're fans of gaming on Linux, we sort of know how vocal a minority can be :) Unfortunately some vocal minority groups are annoying the majority. Maybe that's the perspective of the people who game on Windows too? "We don't want those filthy Linux users playing games with us, don't port!" Or something..

Lol. Yep - that's usually the argument that I hear straight after.

It's true. There is a glut of us in these professions. But that's what happens when our collective ancestors colonize lands. It usually takes GENERATIONS for other populations to adapt to that way of thinking. There's also the social engineering aspects which have influenced generations of women to keep out of our professions. It might be a bitter pill, but with the many, many privileges we enjoy compared to other groups, I'm prepared to do my bit. If we don't, then we'd end up in segregation, which would suck more for all of us. It's also an issue that's over-represented by the right wing. There was a poll at one stage with people desperate to get stories of people who'd lost their job to a less qualified minority (and they couldn't get any). At the end of the day, it depends on whether you're an altruistic individual.

I also really don't understand that FreeBSD thing. What bit are they particularly offended by that would cause them to leave? It'd be great if we could "keep politics out of it", but then some bad apple is going to do something stupid which ends up making someone's life hell. Is it worth taking away all the protections against harassment because a few people have a persecution complex? That they *might* be accused of having bad conduct? And people call us snowflakes...

Yeah, I agree. I suppose that Linux desktop users would be the proportionate equivalent of transsexuals? (I think non-heterosexual is way too high at 12%). The non-inclusive argument for Battletech would be the equivalent of a small group of Windows users not wanting a Linux port because they're worried about what people would think about Windows? lol. Maybe that similie needs some work ;) (and it's a poor comparison as we all have a choice in our operating systems :P )


Last edited by NotYourRealName on 11 May 2018 at 5:14 am UTC

Quoting: Eike

Quoting: slaapliedjeThis is why there is no such thing as heteronormative.

IMHO, you're just misinterpreting the term. It's not used to say that being hetero is unnormal, it's supposed to say that being hetero is not a norm/standard to be set for everybody. There's different people, and that's ok.

Nothing about video games is necessary. Their contents (and their very existence) are up to the makers/artists. Question is, why do you think artists shoulnd't put non-hetros in their art?

Sorry, but this totally describes what you are doing at this very moment: You want to dictate the makers of the game to stop such "completely unnecessary inclusion". They are "the original writers" of their game.

My point is it isn't really their original art. Battletech has a huge amount of backstory to it from decades of novels, games, etc.

That'd be the equivalent of me creating a Star Wars novel and revealing that Luke wasn't a hermit because of... whatever the Last Jedi explained, he was depressed because he failed to kill Ben Solo? Or that he was supposed to? But instead Luke became a hermit because he really wanted to be a woman. People would be pissed, right?

Same with the new Klingons in Star Trek: Discovery. I mean why? Why recreate them for the 3rd time?

My point being, if you're going to make a game/novel/movie, stick within the bounds of what came before you. Or just make up a different universe yourself. On that note, when can Jedi live in the vacuum of space? Or make them selves a solid/yet not solid manifestation across the universe? Sorry, that movie was terrible...