Crazy Justice finally has a Steam page up, Battle Royale will be free all other modes a purchase

Quoting: BeamboomI disagree with this - that's not ALL it is. The by far biggest advantage with consoles, is that the software by and large is written specifically for that platform - and that platform is the exact same on all machines so the optimising for that specific hardware can be maximised. That leads to ultra smooth experiences across the board that simply put we hardly ever experience on PC, even on hardware three times the cost of a console. Yeah it's more "PC in a console" now than before, true, but the differences are still significant. So even if they are less powerful on paper, the software makes far, faaaar better use of the power there is. The "add more hardware to the problem" attitude in the PC world is quite frankly a disgrace.

So I am a defender of consoles, albeit now being a PC gamer I was a console gamer myself in the PS3 era, and they do indeed serve a purpose and I cal totally understand those who chose to be so.
And some of the exclusives are simply astonishing in their polish and sheer production value. Let's just admit that too. Yeah yeah hate exclusives, etc. But as a gamer, some of them are simply marvellous to experience.

Sorry but i have to disagree.
Are they all the same - Yes.
Does the software make use of all the power - Maybe
Is the hardware comparable ? NO. Not really.
I never meant to excuse poor optimization with "add more hardware" . The point I was trying to make is you CAN upgrade a PC with a newer graphics card rather than build a whole new one. With consoles you can A)Never upgrade B)Not always have backwards compatibility
It does not matter how polished exclusives are. They are by definition an anti-consumer practice. Buy this or you can never play the game you like. The game should be multiplatform and the winner should be whoever delivers the best experience , not who locks the game down.
As for the so called ultra-smooth experiences I could get into the whole FPS thing , but I don't want to seem like a snob so I'll leave it here.

Quoting: razing32With consoles you can A)Never upgrade

... And that is also a blessing. In fact, I'd say that's one of the arguments FOR. Keep in mind that a console doesn't cost more than just a GPU on PC. That is a core point here. And the prospect of purchasing a machine that will stay relevant within that sphere for... 8 years? All new games will run smooth on that machine for almost a decade ahead. With the cost of just a graphics card. Some would say that is a good deal, and I would agree with them.

It's like buying a stereo for your livingroom. You don't want to tear it apart and swap DAC or lasers or whatnot - you just want a box that works for the entire lifespan of that box. It's the same with consoles.

Quoting: razing32B)Not always have backwards compatibility

That's almost non existent. The principle is: One console, one pool of games. Next console, new pool of games.

There are absolutely arguments against consoles, just as there are against PC gaming. But I think it is important to maintain the nuances in these kind of discussions. To talk about consoles as "all evil" and their users as "sheep" or "dumb" - as many PC elitists enjoy doing - is just flat out stupid.


Last edited by Beamboom on 3 August 2018 at 8:19 am UTC

Quoting: razing32Sorry but i have to disagree.
Are they all the same - Yes.
Does the software make use of all the power - Maybe
Is the hardware comparable ? NO. Not really.
I never meant to excuse poor optimization with "add more hardware" . The point I was trying to make is you CAN upgrade a PC with a newer graphics card rather than build a whole new one. With consoles you can A)Never upgrade B)Not always have backwards compatibility
It does not matter how polished exclusives are. They are by definition an anti-consumer practice. Buy this or you can never play the game you like. The game should be multiplatform and the winner should be whoever delivers the best experience , not who locks the game down.
As for the so called ultra-smooth experiences I could get into the whole FPS thing , but I don't want to seem like a snob so I'll leave it here.

Well, the same applies for smartphone market. The big difference is that you have way more harware there, but you can end up with the same limitations.

From my point of view, is a market for a group of people in this world. I mean, I fell the same as you about their limitations, but I also have many friends that really appreciates this limitations in some way. For instances, they don't care about upgrading (if not once every 5-7 years) or if it runs @144 fps. They just want a piece of hardware that runs the games they like without having to deal with anything out of paying the game, pushing the install button and start playing.

Quoting: Beamboom

Quoting: razing32With consoles you can A)Never upgrade

... And that is also a blessing. In fact, I'd say that's one of the arguments FOR. Keep in mind that a console doesn't cost more than just a GPU on PC. That is a core point here. And the prospect of purchasing a machine that will stay relevant within that sphere for... 8 years? All new games will run smooth on that machine for almost a decade ahead. With the cost of just a graphics card. Some would say that is a good deal, and I would agree with them.

It's like buying a stereo for your livingroom. You don't want to tear it apart and swap DAC or lasers or whatnot - you just want a box that works for the entire lifespan of that box. It's the same with consoles.

Quoting: razing32B)Not always have backwards compatibility

That's almost non existent. The principle is: One console, one pool of games. Next console, new pool of games.

There are absolutely arguments against consoles, just as there are against PC gaming. But I think it is important to maintain the nuances in these kind of discussions. To talk about consoles as "all evil" and their users as "sheep" or "dumb" - as many PC elitists enjoy doing - is just flat out stupid.

A)Not sure how that is a blessing. It is a lack of control . You lose control over hardware you own.
And I feel the stereo analogy falls flat. You can use a stereo indefinetly. CDs from the 90s work in 2018. There is no standard change with every stereo console

B)Please don't put words in my mouth. I am not a PC elitist. Just looking at the facts.
On computers you have backwards compatibility on consoles you do not (with minor exceptions)
I can play old linux games on modern Linux distros.
I can play old windows games on Windows or wine.
I cannot play Xbox or Xbox360 games on an XboxOne and i cannot play PS1 or Ps2 games on a Ps4. Again there are exceptions but it is in the hands of the publisher not the consumer.

Just to make it clear , I don't hate console players.
We are all gamers.
I just don't like publishers locking our favorite games to a specific hardware platform to strong arm us into buying said platform.
Imagine only being able to listen to rock music in a Ford , Hip-hop in a Cadillac and Pop in a Toyota. That's how silly these exclusives are. The games should be on all platforms and hardware should sell based on what it offers to the end consumer. But that's just my opinion.

Quoting: x_wing

Quoting: razing32Sorry but i have to disagree.
Are they all the same - Yes.
Does the software make use of all the power - Maybe
Is the hardware comparable ? NO. Not really.
I never meant to excuse poor optimization with "add more hardware" . The point I was trying to make is you CAN upgrade a PC with a newer graphics card rather than build a whole new one. With consoles you can A)Never upgrade B)Not always have backwards compatibility
It does not matter how polished exclusives are. They are by definition an anti-consumer practice. Buy this or you can never play the game you like. The game should be multiplatform and the winner should be whoever delivers the best experience , not who locks the game down.
As for the so called ultra-smooth experiences I could get into the whole FPS thing , but I don't want to seem like a snob so I'll leave it here.

Well, the same applies for smartphone market. The big difference is that you have way more harware there, but you can end up with the same limitations.

From my point of view, is a market for a group of people in this world. I mean, I fell the same as you about their limitations, but I also have many friends that really appreciates this limitations in some way. For instances, they don't care about upgrading (if not once every 5-7 years) or if it runs @144 fps. They just want a piece of hardware that runs the games they like without having to deal with anything out of paying the game, pushing the install button and start playing.

Phones are not really comparable. You lack the choice and customization you have available on PC.
I get not caring about upgrading and just wanting to play games but on Windows and even Ubuntu it's easy to install steam , download a game and play .
My issue is with the game being locked to a single hardware platform.

Quoting: razing32B)Please don't put words in my mouth. I am not a PC elitist.

I didn't say you were. I were talking in general, about those elitists who do have that attitude towards console gamers. They annoy me.

The comparison with a stereo were simply to illustrate that a console is a box that do deliver as intended for their entire lifespan. That is the purpose. A console owner do not want to fiddle with upgrades. It's not why they buy a console. They buy a console much like they buy a toaster, or TV, or stereo: They just want it to work, unaltered and unmaintained, for their intended life span. So from their perspective, the "not upgradeable" is an argument for, not against, purchase.

And quite frankly - for me personally that is one of the most appealing sides of console gaming. One purchase and you're done for a long time, without missing out on anything.

Quoting: Beamboom

Quoting: razing32B)Please don't put words in my mouth. I am not a PC elitist.

I didn't say you were. I were talking in general, about those elitists who do have that attitude towards console gamers. They annoy me.

The comparison with a stereo were simply to illustrate that a console is a box that do deliver as intended for their entire lifespan. That is the purpose. A console owner do not want to fiddle with upgrades. It's not why they buy a console. They buy a console much like they buy a toaster, or TV, or stereo: They just want it to work, unaltered and unmaintained, for their intended life span. So from their perspective, the "not upgradeable" is an argument for, not against, purchase.

And quite frankly - for me personally that is one of the most appealing sides of console gaming. One purchase and you're done for a long time, without missing out on anything.

I get what you meant about the stereo now. Still pre-built PCs are a thing.
Just feel the consoles may seem to solve the issue and to some extent do , but it just feels like a wasted investment in my opinion.
A pre-built PC for roughly the same money can have similar power or more and can always be upgraded.
The one thing I feel consoles lose most on is MODS. I cannot begin to say how many hours i spent on Mods in Hearts of Iron , Skyrim , Civilization and many more. Also let's not forget one little detail . The company that makes the console has complete control over publishing on said console. If you make a PC game you can sell it regardless if Microsoft/Apple likes it or not. (won't bring up Linux as we are so decentralized there is no way anyone can have a lockdown). You can always sell directly to the end consumer.
To each their own I guess.

Quoting: razing32Phones are not really comparable. You lack the choice and customization you have available on PC.
I get not caring about upgrading and just wanting to play games but on Windows and even Ubuntu it's easy to install steam , download a game and play .
My issue is with the game being locked to a single hardware platform.

I wasn't comparing the PC vs Smartphone, just mentioned it in order to show you how we accept a more limited market sometimes.

And believe me, console gamers don't care about customization (out of changing a background). There is a lot of people that doesn't have any idea of how a PC works so they prefer to go into a black box that guaranties that everything they see in the market will work (I remember one friend mentioning as an advantage that he doesn't have to take care of graphics settings on the console). What we see as easy and simple, could mean a nightmare for others.


Last edited by x_wing on 4 August 2018 at 1:36 am UTC

Quoting: razing32I get what you meant about the stereo now. Still pre-built PCs are a thing.

... Not when the PC performance ratrace continues the day after the purchase. Then you buy a machine that's outdated shortly after purchase (essentially when the next BIG title kicks in that utilise the latest gen GPUs. Typically a title the average games wants to play). If all the software were built for that particular prebuilt PC, *then* it would be comparable.
I just can't stress this enough, because it's a core reason why consoles has become as large as they are.

Quoting: razing32Just feel the consoles may seem to solve the issue and to some extent do , but it just feels like a wasted investment in my opinion.

I were of the same opinion as you, until GTA4 came out and I just could not be arsed to wait for the PC version, I was too big of a fan of the franchise. So I purchased GTA4 bundled with a PS3 :). And eight years later I can firmly reassure you that those few hundred dollars were well spent, weighted in hours of entertainment.

Quoting: razing32The one thing I feel consoles lose most on is MODS.

Yup that is a loss. And player made maps etc.

Quoting: razing32Also let's not forget one little detail . The company that makes the console has complete control over publishing on said console.

True. But to be bluntly honest here - I don't really think one miss out on much. Pretty much all titles of a certain magnitude/significance ends up on consoles - or arrive there first. But if one is interested in the undergrowth/underground of the gaming world, or are after very very niche stuff, then PC is the natural direction to seek.
Also, a huge share of the "retro gaming" are (or at least used to be) on PC only. If that's your cup of tea the choice is obvious.

As for me, I was long dreaming of Valves "Steam boxes" to establish a kind of hardware "generation" reference due to their popularity, and maybe bring some, if only a few drops, of that console longevity/hardware optimisation over to the PC world. That would have been wonderful, imo.