Valve officially confirm a new version of 'Steam Play' which includes a modified version of Wine

Quoting: F.UltraIf I where Feral I would negotiate the license sooner than today and do a same day release by using the proton wrapper (for the games where Proton works) and then release the native port with full performance and support later. That way they will not loose sales with this change while still being able to produce a proper native port later.

Yep, makes perfect sense for porters to do that. In fact some already did exactly that in the past first using Wine, and then releasing a better performing port (Icculus for Dear Esther if I remember correctly).


Last edited by Shmerl on 23 August 2018 at 3:55 am UTC

I am thinking about to create a new steam account just for Proton games...
The idea of playing Bioshock or Dishonored again, knowing that they will be counted as games sold on Linux, is a tempting idea.

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: mirowell I am not pessimistic about this, surely it will do lots and lots of good.
I am just afraid that too many people will blame "linux" for the less performance and more bugs, not understanding that this is not a native build, that there is dx->vulkan translation and .dll emulation aka at least one additional layer which makes things slower and more buggy.

That is a point, actually one of the most solid "con" points I've seen. Something like this happened with the Steam Machines only it was about bad ports.

This is why you have to enable non-whitelist games in your settings, and then it warns you that it is unsupported. Even then, there will still be a bunch of idiots that blame Linux. Certain things can't be helped, and certain bridges just have to be crossed when you get to them. But what's important right now is that Valve has sprayed some nitrous into the engine and we're just getting going.

Quoting: GuestOh absolutely, it's a good thing, and I don't mean to diminish the work Valve is doing. But Valve isn't doing quite as much as people think - for example, Valve isn't making any game work through wine directly. Well, that can be argued via dxvk, but the point I guess I'm trying to make is that while the impact might be large to users, the effort itself from Valve is actually not equivalent.

Hrm . . . more generally, it's an interesting question of value: Who deserves more kudos, someone who spends a lot of effort for a result that has little impact, or someone who spends little effort for a result that has a lot of impact?
Of course in this case it's more like, group A spend a lot of effort building most of what makes things work and outfit B puts on some finishing touches that allow it to be more broadly and easily used. On the other hand, one might ask if the Wine community on its own had shown many signs of ever turning Wine into something that worked transparently? And my answer would be "no", and that includes Lutris as far as I can tell from some of the other conversations around here in recent months. I even wonder if one problem might have been, if Wine started to Just Work, Codeweavers would be out of a job. An outsider coming and shaking things up may have been more important than we know.

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: liamdawe

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: liamdawe

Quoting: GuestSo now that I've had time to think about this news more, I thought I'd try add more discussion points.

Disclaimer: I personally find it odd that people are praising Valve so much here. Valve didn't make wine. Or dxvk. Or actually any of the tools that make this possible. They're just packaging it into Steam.

Let's be clear though, Valve did fund the development of DXVK - so essentially, yes they did make. They've been funding it through all but the first what, two releases?

I meant its original creation - I didn't think Valve was responsible for that?

Just really want to point out that Valve see and fund things that are very useful, and that's not to be underestimated, but I personally dislike the treatment that it's all and entirely Valve doing everything.

Thing is, I feel Valve have been exceptionally clear on the situation. Who people choose to champion is their business.

In the case of DXVK, they couldn't have been clearer even noting when funding started. The point is, while Valve didn't start these projects, it is the one that's pulling them together, funding them and making something bigger out of it. That benefits everyone too, since it's open source.

Oh absolutely, it's a good thing, and I don't mean to diminish the work Valve is doing. But Valve isn't doing quite as much as people think - for example, Valve isn't making any game work through wine directly. Well, that can be argued via dxvk, but the point I guess I'm trying to make is that while the impact might be large to users, the effort itself from Valve is actually not equivalent.

If it makes people feel better I can point out really great things Valve have done (mostly around Vulkan tooling and drivers). But I have to ask: if wine didn't exist, if dxvk didn't exist, would Valve have tried to create either?

Doing something which requires minimal effort and produces maximal results is the very definition of a smart move. If it is done for a greater good, or at least not for just selfish reasons, it is a good thing. What Valve is doing is what only they could have done. No one else can put in Wine in side of steam and do a Quality control of the games that work.

Quoting: GuestI'm sure I will get attacked for this, but here goes. As per usual, disclaimer, my thoughts are my own and not that of VP, etc..

A big issue here is, does Proton really mean "Linux support" ? I don't think it does. Here's why.

When you get a port to Linux, even if it's by a third party, a lot of work has been done to bring that game over to the platform... even if a D3D wrapper has been used etc (i'm not going to go into the "lazy wrapper" argument). The porter is selling you a product that is certified by them to work with Linux, and has official backing of the original developer/publisher. If something doesn't work, or breaks, there is an official support method available. It is someones job to provide help on getting it working, and to fix that if it doesnt.

With Proton, the original developer and/or publisher doesn't have to do anything - that includes support the game running in any way on Linux. It is effectively the same situation has it has been for years with Wine - if it runs, great.. if not, it's not the original dev/publishers problem. They wont support you. As far as they are concerned, even if you bought on Linux, and it shows up on their ticker that it was a Linux sale, you bought a Windows product, and you are not running it via an officially supported method.

Nor will it be Valve's problem. There is no way they are going to provide support for every issue running every game on Linux. Nor will they be any more able to deal with bugs in those games on Proton than the Wine developers are. It could be years, or never, before you get a fix for a particular game not working. Or the next build of Proton could break a previously working game.

So, while I can see how Valve thinks this is a good thing for getting games on Linux, and getting gamers over to Linux, it in turn has a big impact to those of us who were bringing games over to Linux officially. I don't see how Proton is going to help us with the big issue of getting publishers interested in Linux as a platform... in fact, I see it doing the opposite.

You're absolutely right, but none of it matters. The question, the only real question, is whether this maneuver (and perhaps other related maneuvers) can actually drive an increase in Linux use. Network effects ultimately rule over the sort of issue you bring up--if Linux has a strong desktop marketshare, publishers will ultimately release on, or want to port to, Linux. Even if there's a solution of sorts through Wine, the sales will be stronger with a real Linux release. If Linux does not have a strong desktop marketshare, publishers will ultimately not release on Linux. Bigger marketshares get paid attention to, smaller marketshares do not.
The only reason desktop/gaming Linux gets as much attention as it does is its very large marketshare in most computing areas other than the desktop. It is a niche gaming/desktop OS, but not a niche OS overall. But that only takes us so far.

Some interesting stuff :)

QuoteFrom Jeremy White at Codeweavers:
"Yesterday, Valve announced a new feature in Steam Play that allows Windows titles to run on the Linux version of Steam using Wine.

We have been working directly with Valve for two years on this effort, and the launch yesterday was one of the most joyful days of my career, for a variety of reasons. First, the personal – my sons both grew up using Linux. My older son graduated from college, got a job, and eventually bought a Windows PC so he could play his favorite games. My younger son is still in college, and he remains a die hard Linux user. Last night, he was able to install and run the few Windows games he craved on his Linux laptop.

Second, the professional – I have long felt that computer games are the key to any successful computer operating system. Sure, you absolutely need to be able to do productive work on your computer, but your heart is not in it until you can play. Without that joy, Linux, and the variety of Linux based operating systems (e.g. SteamOS, ChromeOS) are going to struggle to claim a meaningful share of the market. Valve has been providing amazing support for gaming on Linux for many years now, and we are proud to join them in expanding the range of high quality games that are available to Linux users.

This still remains a long, hard journey, but perhaps this marks the beginning of the mythical Year Of The Linux Desktop.

I hope that Proton brings you as much joy as it has brought me. And now excuse me, I have some, er, testing, to do..."

Oh and i think this would be a good news to get posted :)

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nvidia-39654-linux

Quoting: mirooh well, I am really not that happy as most people.

from now on I'm really afraid that too many publishers will use this as an excuse not to provide native linux builds in case it runs "well enough" with proton/wine.

since this is now to be built-in, most people will not have to understand what wine even is, they will take the running binary for granted. hence what is to expect is less performance and continuous direct x instead of opengl or vulkan

this would totally be acceptable for older/legacy titles, but I really think too many will jump on that train that it runs with proton and that there is no need to compile it for linux.
we'll see.

Looks likes this is happening a bunch of people have been requesting a Linux port of City of Brass; the developer finally replied with a link to the announcement of Steam Play.

One more thing about Valve leveraging existing Open source Technologies: Isn't "Not reinventing the wheel" one of the most important aspects of FOSS? How would have Wine developers felt if Valve had developed their own alternative to wine rather than using wine? And what would be the purpose of FOSS if people don't use it to make ever bigger projects. Reason people are gushing about Valve is because they are removing a bottleneck which no one could have.

I think this is good:
1) Valve is pushing Vulkan. They clearly state: if you want good compatibility with all platforms: use vulkan, nothing else.
2) Using vulkan it takes the biggest burden against linux out of the way: a good 3D API
and controversial
3) This might install wine as middle ware for gaming. Both Windows and Linux have major problems playing older games. Try installing GTA up to IV and have it work... It's not native on Linux, and on Windows 10 it throws so much garbage in your face, you'd better give it up.
Proton and the controller compatibility would make Linux (or if it works on Windows too) *the* platform to use to play GTA up to IV(!).
Now the middleware needs to step down the amount of windows specifics, and concentrate on the gaming specifics.
Let Valve handle the lower part, and it would be fantastic. Games that you can install and play 10 years from now... I would love to play quake again. But I won't because I need to get all the data from the CD-ROMS, that means, I first need to have a player somewhere in the network.
Then I need to find the most recent quake engine and read how to set it up, because my original binaries won't work.
It would be like GOG, but working.

Final Fantasy VI worked like a charm.
Final Fantasy X unfortunately not (yet ^_^)

Can't wait to further test the damn out of Proton.

Quoting: oldeschool

Quoting: mirooh well, I am really not that happy as most people.

from now on I'm really afraid that too many publishers will use this as an excuse not to provide native linux builds in case it runs "well enough" with proton/wine.

since this is now to be built-in, most people will not have to understand what wine even is, they will take the running binary for granted. hence what is to expect is less performance and continuous direct x instead of opengl or vulkan

this would totally be acceptable for older/legacy titles, but I really think too many will jump on that train that it runs with proton and that there is no need to compile it for linux.
we'll see.

Looks likes this is happening a bunch of people have been requesting a Linux port of City of Brass; the developer finally replied with a link to the announcement of Steam Play.

Well, I replied asking for Vulkan support, then :D
Should not be *that* complicated, improves experience on all platforms, and makes baby steps towards a Linux port? WIN-WIN-WIN!

Quoting: F.Ultra

Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: dubigrasuWhat? Of course it matters! It matters to me anyway. I have a deep respect for Feral and I'm curious in which way this it affects them.

I mean it doesn't matter in the sense that it should provide positive outcome for Linux gaming either way. Feral might need to change something, and hopefully the right way. For one I hope they'll start releasing DRM-free games.

If I where Feral I would negotiate the license sooner than today and do a same day release by using the proton wrapper (for the games where Proton works) and then release the native port with full performance and support later. That way they will not loose sales with this change while still being able to produce a proper native port later.

Havent Feral in the past stated that once they have announced a port is coming from them, we are free to buy it from Steam even when the Linux build is not yet released. I would guess that Feral would simply need to either amend their contracts to include that they get a % of profits from purchases before their native port goes live of those that are listed as Linux purchasors using proton. Or it could be that their existing contract already handles this position already.

This was the best news since steam client releasing eight years ago. I'm so happy!!!
Now it's important that linux gamers percentage grows, so that big brands will begin having interest to porting games to linux natively. My first wish is Arma4.

Quoting: bradgy

Quoting: NonjuffoHave you tested RS2014 with Proton? That title is a serious mess of uplay, hardware dongles and ... Denuvo? WTH? Pretty sure that DRM wasn't there in 2014. Maybe that is the "remastering" they did later.

I haven't yet no, and I haven't played it under Wine for a while, although the last time was post the Remaster, which suggests if Ubi have shoehorned UPlay and Denuvo in, it's happened recently. Really hope that's not the case, as it worked well under Wine before, and I was hoping the integration into Steam/Big Picture would mean a lot easier set up under Linux in the future. I'll test and report back when I can.

Thanks. I think UPlay has always been there in some form, so that shouldn't be a problem. Could be that it interacts with the actual program only if it already exists on the system, otherwise it just logs in to the account inside the game.

Due to it's unique nature, this is the only Windows "game" I'd really like to get back. Not enough to overcome my laziness to install and mess with WINE though. Well, not just WINE, but a whole VM with PCI passthrough. Is this Proton thing contained within Steam or a specific game, and not visible to the wider system so I could run say notepad.exe? Something in system wide WINE availability just rubs me the wrong way.

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Smoke39

Quoting: GuestActually....wine was already in pretty good shape without funding from Valve. Gallium-nine never had backing and was in excellent shape, though has fallen by the wayside it seems.
But this is really my point: people are praising for Valve for....good business choices?
I've never said their contributions are useless though - far from it. And their contributions help outside of themselves at the end of the day. I just find it odd how people are so willing to give credit to Valve for things that others have done instead. Give credit to both, I say.

This article is specifically about Valve integrating wine into steam, and about their funding of DXVK. People are praising them for these specific things. The notion that anyone's giving them credit for anything else seems to be something you're cynically reading into things yourself.

That notion is from people's comments, not the article.

I understand that you're referring to people's comments. I'm arguing that you're inferring things that people aren't actually saying.

Quoting: MayeulC

Quoting: KetilWill it warn you about games not on the whitelist if you enable it for all titles? I expect to enable it for some not whitelisted games, but that doesn't mean I want it to list all windows games.

Yes, it will. You get a message when you first run them. Though I'm not sure if you get it with "whitelisted" games :)

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Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: TcheyIt's a great new for players, but i'm concerned about NATIVE Linux games. Too many, i think today, will use this instead of going the road to a proper Linux build.

Basically, it's a WINE inside Steam, so it's still not Linux.

Suppose you're playing a Vulkan game on your Linux box. Performance is great, everything works. The dev knows your gaming on Linux. Do you care if the game is ELF or Win32?

Technically, ELF or PE; or Linux or Win32, but do not mix in the API and the executable format (you could very well have a PE-encoded Linux binary; technically you have ELF32 and ELF64 as well, IIRC UEFI executable are in the Portable Executable format as well). Sorry for nitpicking.

Oh I'm so very sorry! :-P ;-)

I've just tried Doom3, video after tweaking the cfg is perfect, audio is a no go, I know it's early days but it's looking very promising if Valve can iron out the problems.

Torchlight runs but with no sound whatsoever.


Last edited by lucifertdark on 23 August 2018 at 9:35 am UTC

I don't really have the time to deep dive these comments on this right now, so I'll just leave some comments on this and the first few pages of comments and a few questions here.

Finally! This is something I've wanted as part of Linux Steam quite often since it first dropped. I have no real issue setting things up to game using Wine, but it has never been optimal due to limits on my free time.

On the "but it's going to potentially hurt native support" comments, consider the fact that this counts the game as a Linux purchase if you buy those non-native games and run them through the builtin Proton. It doesn't help what's already out nor near future upcoming titles (potentially nothing will for a long time or possibly ever) but as the publishers and indie devs will now have a report of hard numbers of their Linux users from Valve, that'll be another potential piece of ammunition to use in the fight to get more native releases and in the fight to eliminate intrusive DRM.

On that front, if you're boycotting non-native releases I understand, but I hope you are actually taking the time to make the publisher/dev aware of that fact for every game you'd buy but for it not being native since that is statistically the only way such boycotts actually do any good in convincing them to release more native ports. That's been a big sticking point around the people intending to boycott Guardians of the Galaxy 3 or all future MCU films over James Gunn's firing, and it's no less true here.

I really want more details of how they're handling things under the hood here. Considering how many tricks and tweaks some games require (or historically have) to get running well under Wine and how many are mutually incompatible with one another, are individual games being essentially run under their own prefix or is everything under a single monolithic prefix? If the former, how easy is it to adjust the prefix compared to standard Wine? What about titles that don't run or don't run correctly unless you change the Windows version?


Last edited by vlademir1 on 23 August 2018 at 9:54 am UTC

I'm liking this. There appears to be a common problem with sound. I can't get all the sound on mass effect 1 other than the intro swoosh sounds. Skyrim works lovely other than the standard freeze on quit which we are used too. No mans sky works great. Interestingly when I switch to 4k resolution on Ubuntu then run it I get a black screen with sound. Anyone getting sound but no video try out 1080p. Exciting. I deleted the wine install. If it keeps working well the windows partition is on borrowed time.