SC Controller driver and UI version 0.4.5 is out, last release for a while

eally? Take a look at https://postmeritocracy.org/ (written by none other than Coraline himself)

Im going to assume that yourisgendereing there is a typo. Please be more careful. There's no room for transphobia in polite discussion.

As to your other points, they've already been brought up and discussed. In summary, these 'attacks' will be dealt with as part of a process that didn't exist before. That process will be refined. Some of these attacks have merit, some don't and it'll be up to the Linux Foundation to sort the wheat from the chaff.

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" ~ Sir William Blackstone

Off Topic: If by letting escape ten guilty persons another ten innocents suffer...

What happened almost immediately after the CoC being adopted? SJWs going after people they don't like: https://twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/1042769399596437504?lang=en

Sure, he didn't explicitly state that it is a political document for outing political opponents, but it's what's happened everytime a CoC is adopted, and it's what's happening with Linux now.

That's hyperbole. I don't believe it has "happened everytime a CoC is adopted", so that point is moot. Codes of conduct might have been rare in volunteer projects and open source communities, but that doesn't mean they're a new invention.

In any case, you can all relax. The CoC doesn't give any power to anyone who isn't a maintainer of a Linux subsystem or module, and then only within their domain, and becoming a maintainer requires the same amount of expertise as ever. Nothing has changed with regard to meritocracy or the lack of.

People who do not contribute to the project at all use this as an opportunity to attack maintainers they don't like. Opal example: https://i.imgtc.com/1gasSBZ.png

People attack other people all the time. There's always an excuse or a document to point at, be it the bible or whatever. Taking away the excuse isn't going to solve the problem, especially if the purpose of said excuse (the CoC) is to prevent toxic behaviour in the community.

Really? Take a look at https://postmeritocracy.org/ (written by none other than Coraline himself)

What does that site have to do with the Linux kernel? Obviously I meant that the CoC doesn't change how patches are evaluated or maintainers chosen. If it was based on technical merit before, these same people aren't likely to make different decisions just because they have this CoC that has nothing to do with those processes.

p/s: I'm suspicious.. All this bullshit happen on weird time where technology world nearing "the junction" ... Coincidence??

Again that's consipiracy talk.
Or let me rephrase it another way :
When you take an even just surface level course in polemology you see that civil rights movement across history has a tendency to pop up when the economical and technical situation of a group gets comfortable enough that those questions can become one of the focus of said community.

It is in fact according to all polemologist a good sign that the community is indeed living through a golden period.

So yes until now some members of the community have piped down and suffered in silence but suffered nonetheless. And now that we're getting a bit comfy because we're being listened to and being heard as an overarching family, some members are demanding basic respect to be where it never was.

So the timing is not suspicious looking in fact the very fact that that kind of convos are at the full front these days and considered news worthy just goes to show that we're getting legit and recognized by outsider groups.

Come on, I'm sorry, not grinding any conspiracy. I'm just saying because almost 10 years I'm following Linux news, this year (2018) lots of huge development happening in Linux community. So, that's why I little suspicious when this (or any) outrages happens. After all, I'm human. Suspicious is part on human life, cannot avoid it.

Move on topic, everything aren't black and white. We need to discuss the CoC fast.

p/s: Don't want to p/s anymore.. :'(

If you don't want to appear like you're throwing conspiracy talk maybe don't be dismissive.

In other words in the PS of yours that I originally quoted the use of the word bullshit made you sound dismissive of the issue altogether.

Again even the folk that this CoC is supposed to protect , queer folk like me , or women aren't agreeing with the current one because we all agree on the fact that it's exploitable as all hell.
Where we DO disagree is on the necessity to have a CoC and the nay sayers are just rabid and downright aggressive. Again folk like me who are the "target that this shield is suppose to protect" we are used to CoC's and also have our objections. We just refuse to be dehumanized just because some dudes are upset because we're telling them "no you can't say the F word no more" .

Perhaps you would do "folk like you", as you put it, more favors by being less hostile towards people calling for civility in debates like these.

The person I was answering to feels fine the only one seeing "hostility" is you and others like you who don't like being told that they can be dehumanizing at times not because they want to but because they have been raised in a culture that told them that it was okay and normal to shit on people like me that it was doing us a service...

Here, is a little something that might blow your mind: I do not care. I do not care about a contributors sexuality, religion or political affiliation. If their contributions make Linux a better kernel, they should be allowed to contribute. That is how it should be. Instead we now have these neon haired puritans

So, not their sexuality, religion or political affiliation, but you do care about the colour of their hair.

This is the thing with them is that they can't even keep the pretending game for more than a sentence. They always reveal themselves in less than a few minutes. And then they get upset when we walk away telling them that they will be welcomed once they have dropped being dehumanizing to their fellow humans.
I mean guys your behaviourial patternss have been floating around for millennias on end we KNOW YOU you've been our torturers for not just centuries but two whole milleniums . It was fun while it lasted now we're done playing your game and moved to our game. Deal with it or walk away from the table.


Last edited by TheSyldat on 25 September 2018 at 2:37 pm UTC

Personally, my main contention is the extension of the CoC to spaces outside of the mailing list. If was just there it would be a bit more palatable and somewhat reasonable given that it's a professional space. I'd hate to banned over a bit of trash talk in a live stream or video that isn't associated with my work.

In other words :
With a begruding tone in minaka's voice "Okaaaay fiiine I'll hold my tongue in the common place but the minute I'm in a more private space you'll let me hurl out all my bile anyway"

Which basically means that the CoC was indeed needed since apparently without its presence you consider the mailing list a free for all ...

If that's not how you meant it then you sure made a piss poor job at conveying otherwise.


Last edited by TheSyldat on 25 September 2018 at 2:50 pm UTC

What do completely unsourced claims about economics have to do with anything? Really interesting how you had to put the caveat "except in the US" considering Marvel's comic branch is experiencing some incredibly low sales numbers.

Unsourced so I guess you're too lazy to check "comics industry revenue in country X" on google ...
Again both industries all over the world rake in more money than ever but suuuurrrrrreeee being a bit more inclusive ruins everything ...

On the Code of Conduct itself: I'm willing to believe the wording has problems that may need to be worked out. Wording is hard, wording that sort of thing is particularly hard. It may also be that a CoC can't really be a cureall because the governance structure itself at the Linux Kernel has problems that need to be worked out--indeed, if it has none that would be a first in human history.

But does there need to be some sort of Code of Conduct taken fairly seriously at the Linux kernel? Oh hell yeah. Come on, could we get real?

Again at the risk of repeating myself for the upteenth time I'm bisexual and non-binary person trust me I'm all in favour of rewording and making it a bit more precise because right now this is waaaaay too vague. Even worse it splits the LGBTQ community even more than it already is precisely because it's too vague for its own good.
And again if this CoC is truly there to protect women and marginalized populations then maybe talk with said marginals and asked them "If this is too vague what should be specificly in there so that it is protecting you correctly" .

Like I said none of us managed to create our first program and have it work on first try we all made mistakes when we tried coding something for the first time on our own. Same goes here the fact that they finally want to put one in place , good by all means do so . On the other hand when your attempt gets criticized understand that it's because we want it to be improved.

Heck the simple lince
"Use inclusive language ..." this line alone is so vague that even me I can interpret it in three different ways. What do they mean exactly by inclusive ... etc etc


Last edited by TheSyldat on 25 September 2018 at 3:10 pm UTC

It started to calm down, and we probably don't want it flaring up again.

Not really no but indeed it'd be nice if some folk learn to stop being so paranoid.

Quite a few issues have been discussed quite a bit, and I hazard to guess that any real contributions will be much rarer now.

Discussed no, discussed would mean an improvement has happened through finding a compromise which clearly hasn't been reached.
Raised those issues seeing where they lie yes that has been done. And you guessed right the people who are promising us doom just because of a CoC have said their piece already and we've heard it all way before the CoC was adopted.

Let's all see where things goes.

Have been my first answer all along and I have repeated it time and again.


Last edited by TheSyldat on 25 September 2018 at 4:45 pm UTC

This is a big deal- also, why on earth doesn't the steam controller configuration work on the linux client for steam? They have their own Ubuntu-based distribution this is meant to run on so why on earth doesn't it work in Ubuntu itself?

What? Steam Controller on Linux Steam works perfectly well, at least for native games. This tool is helpful for games outside of Steam, for those people who don’t want to use Steam client (the other way to get SC working for non-Steam games is to add them to the Steam library, like one would probably do eg. on Windows).

EDIT: OK, one exception to the perfectly well part. For some reason there is no force-feedback available for Steam Controller on Linux with the Steam client.

So when I was trying to get the controller set up for Dead Cells it just kept defaulting back to the controller's default configuration. I tried a lot of different things but the only answer was using the sc controller UI to configure the buttons. When researching why I was told basically that programming the buttons via big picture mode in Ubuntu just doesn't work; that was basically my experience with it too.

Some games just have issues. Dead Cells is a great game, but it has broken Steam integration in the Linux version, which means you can't configure the SC. That's not Steam's fault or the controller, it's a game issue.

This is a big deal- also, why on earth doesn't the steam controller configuration work on the linux client for steam? They have their own Ubuntu-based distribution this is meant to run on so why on earth doesn't it work in Ubuntu itself?

What? Steam Controller on Linux Steam works perfectly well, at least for native games. This tool is helpful for games outside of Steam, for those people who don’t want to use Steam client (the other way to get SC working for non-Steam games is to add them to the Steam library, like one would probably do eg. on Windows).

EDIT: OK, one exception to the perfectly well part. For some reason there is no force-feedback available for Steam Controller on Linux with the Steam client.

So when I was trying to get the controller set up for Dead Cells it just kept defaulting back to the controller's default configuration. I tried a lot of different things but the only answer was using the sc controller UI to configure the buttons. When researching why I was told basically that programming the buttons via big picture mode in Ubuntu just doesn't work; that was basically my experience with it too.

Some games just have issues. Dead Cells is a great game, but it has broken Steam integration in the Linux version, which means you can't configure the SC. That's not Steam's fault or the controller, it's a game issue.

Hopefully they fix that in Dead Cells, been wanting to try it out...

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" ~ Sir William Blackstone

Off Topic: If by letting escape ten guilty persons another ten innocents suffer...

That is a dangerous line of thinking. So people should suffer because of potential crimes?

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" ~ Sir William Blackstone

Off Topic: If by letting escape ten guilty persons another ten innocents suffer...

That is a dangerous line of thinking. So people should suffer because of potential crimes?

Of course not! What I was trying to say is that the original sentence isn't as simple/easy as Blackstone put it. It a much more complex topic than to summarise it in a phrase.

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" ~ Sir William Blackstone

Off Topic: If by letting escape ten guilty persons another ten innocents suffer...

That is a dangerous line of thinking. So people should suffer because of potential crimes?

Of course not! What I was trying to say is that the original sentence isn't as simple/easy as Blackstone put it. It a much more complex topic than to summarise it in a phrase.

That single sentence is one of the most important aspect of the judicial systems around the world. My guess is that it is because it is a lot more harmful for the society to persecute innocents than to let criminals walk free (in absence of convincing evidence). That is why the burden of proof lies with the one making an accusation. A vague CoC does away with that.

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" ~ Sir William Blackstone

Off Topic: If by letting escape ten guilty persons another ten innocents suffer...

That is a dangerous line of thinking. So people should suffer because of potential crimes?

Of course not! What I was trying to say is that the original sentence isn't as simple/easy as Blackstone put it. It a much more complex topic than to summarise it in a phrase.

That single sentence is one of the most important aspect of the judicial systems around the world. My guess is that it is because it is a lot more harmful for the society to persecute innocents than to let criminals walk free (in absence of convincing evidence). That is why the burden of proof lies with the one making an accusation. A vague CoC does away with that.

The judicial systems around the world don't work, though. Hundreds of innocents rot in prison. People that belong to the lowers economical classes, people of different blackground, political prisoners... yet Dictators live free till the end of their lives, Kings that kill endangered animals roam free, corrupt politicians are still in power, etc, etc. Spain, I'm looking at you.

The whole "one is innocent unless proven otherwise" is broken since the government files all info thereis on us or CCTVs are on operation. They do away much more than a vague CoC.

Anyway, let's not go more off topic that we have already xD No need to have a huge debate in the comments, there are always other forums for this :)

That is why the burden of proof lies with the one making an accusation. A vague CoC does away with that.

Yet even a vague CoC gives some definition as to what actually is an offence that warrants action and who gets to decide on the verdict. Without a written document, it's all arbitrary. Naturally there needs to be proof of said offence, but that and witnesses are usually easy to provide in these cases. It's the Internet after all.

And please, remember that project management and criminal justice are two very different things. Not being allowed to contribute to a volunteer open source project isn't exactly a death sentence. It might hurt your career of course if your contributions are on behalf of your employer, but there's a simple solution: Treat others with respect and don't be a dick.

That is why the burden of proof lies with the one making an accusation. A vague CoC does away with that.

Yet even a vague CoC gives some definition as to what actually is an offence that warrants action and who gets to decide on the verdict. Without a written document, it's all arbitrary. Naturally there needs to be proof of said offence, but that and witnesses are usually easy to provide in these cases. It's the Internet after all.

And please, remember that project management and criminal justice are two very different things. Not being allowed to contribute to a volunteer open source project isn't exactly a death sentence. It might hurt your career of course if your contributions are on behalf of your employer, but there's a simple solution: Treat others with respect and don't be a dick.

The problem is that what "being a dick" means can be arbitrary. Say that I say I don't want to date a particular kind of person because they just don't 'do it' for me. A lot of people seem to think that's hate speech.

What do completely unsourced claims about economics have to do with anything? Really interesting how you had to put the caveat "except in the US" considering Marvel's comic branch is experiencing some incredibly low sales numbers.

Unsourced so I guess you're too lazy to check "comics industry revenue in country X" on google ...
Again both industries all over the world rake in more money than ever but suuuurrrrrreeee being a bit more inclusive ruins everything ...

You are not seriously trying to lump Manga in with comics, are you? Manga is doing well because it has not been politically cowed to a particular world view.

Here, is a little something that might blow your mind: I do not care. I do not care about a contributors sexuality, religion or political affiliation. If their contributions make Linux a better kernel, they should be allowed to contribute. That is how it should be. Instead we now have these neon haired puritans

So, not their sexuality, religion or political affiliation, but you do care about the colour of their hair.

That is about political 'leanings' as opposed to an official affiliation with any particular party. And that is perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned. There really is only one group wearing the neon hair right now. And it's not the anime community anymore. And I'm a bisexual deist, btw, so you can take everything else you were trying to imply here and shove it.

I'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

A year from now Linux is going to end up JUST like FreeBSD. Half of the community is going to pack up and leave because they were accused of being everything from a Nazi (I saved a screen cap, btw) to a *phobe of every variety JUST for believing this CoC is not *just* about playing nice. And this entire thread shows that to be true.


Last edited by Dolus on 26 September 2018 at 4:39 pm UTC

The problem is that what "being a dick" means can be arbitrary. Say that I say I don't want to date a particular kind of person because they just don't 'do it' for me.

Why would you ever discuss your romantic preferences in the context of a software project? I don't see how it could ever be relevant. This really isn't that hard. The document doesn't care what you do on your own time.