SC Controller driver and UI version 0.4.5 is out, last release for a while

The problem is that what "being a dick" means can be arbitrary. Say that I say I don't want to date a particular kind of person because they just don't 'do it' for me.

Why would you ever discuss your romantic preferences in the context of a software project? I don't see how it could ever be relevant. This really isn't that hard. The document doesn't care what you do on your own time.

People are being attacked for what they say on social media.

That is why the burden of proof lies with the one making an accusation. A vague CoC does away with that.

Yet even a vague CoC gives some definition as to what actually is an offence that warrants action and who gets to decide on the verdict. Without a written document, it's all arbitrary. Naturally there needs to be proof of said offence, but that and witnesses are usually easy to provide in these cases. It's the Internet after all.

And please, remember that project management and criminal justice are two very different things. Not being allowed to contribute to a volunteer open source project isn't exactly a death sentence. It might hurt your career of course if your contributions are on behalf of your employer, but there's a simple solution: Treat others with respect and don't be a dick.

The problem is that what "being a dick" means can be arbitrary.

tuubi just made the point that what "being a dick" means is far more arbitrary if you don't even have a document to define what "being a dick" is.
So really, that's a problem with not having a CoC more than with having one.

That is why the burden of proof lies with the one making an accusation. A vague CoC does away with that.

Yet even a vague CoC gives some definition as to what actually is an offence that warrants action and who gets to decide on the verdict. Without a written document, it's all arbitrary. Naturally there needs to be proof of said offence, but that and witnesses are usually easy to provide in these cases. It's the Internet after all.

And please, remember that project management and criminal justice are two very different things. Not being allowed to contribute to a volunteer open source project isn't exactly a death sentence. It might hurt your career of course if your contributions are on behalf of your employer, but there's a simple solution: Treat others with respect and don't be a dick.

The problem is that what "being a dick" means can be arbitrary.

tuubi just made the point that what "being a dick" means is far more arbitrary if you don't even have a document to define what "being a dick" is.
So really, that's a problem with not having a CoC more than with having one.

Most people don't have a problem with a CoC. It's THIS CoC that is the problem. I don't have a problem with the Ruby CoC, for example.

Here, is a little something that might blow your mind: I do not care. I do not care about a contributors sexuality, religion or political affiliation. If their contributions make Linux a better kernel, they should be allowed to contribute. That is how it should be. Instead we now have these neon haired puritans

So, not their sexuality, religion or political affiliation, but you do care about the colour of their hair.

That is about political 'leanings' as opposed to an official affiliation with any particular party. And that is perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned. There really is only one group wearing the neon hair right now. And it's not the anime community anymore. And I'm a bisexual deist, btw, so you can take everything else you were trying to imply here and shove it.

I'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

A year from now Linux is going to end up JUST like FreeBSD. Half of the community is going to pack up and leave because they were accused of being everything from a Nazi (I saved a screen cap, btw) to a *phobe of every variety JUST for believing this CoC is not *just* about playing nice. And this entire thread shows that to be true.

You really are going overboard here. Calm down.
a) Coraline is in no way involved in the Linux kernel. You are bringing her into this discussion when she has nothing to do with it beyond authoring the CoC. And if that's sufficient to destroy a project, you'd best tell Google, Microsoft, Apple, and thousands of Open Source projects that apparently they shouldn't be in existence because they use the same CoC. Let me repeat this: Coraline has _no_ involvement in the decisions made about the CoC as it relates to the Linux kernel. None.
b) RMS disapproves of codes of conduct in general, but otherwise this doesn't affect him. That's all he's said. Hardly "taking a stand".
c) It's really easy to have a discussion disagreeing without stating that half the community will be accused of being a Nazi (and actually, looking back, I don't think you were - but I do see how you might have felt that way). It's not about disagreeing that a few are having problems about with your comments - it's the way you're coming across (hint: not as reasonable). You're own words are aggressive. This will only result in people being aggressive back to you, and you don't then have the right to complain about it. Calm down, at least try be more reasoned, see where it gets you. Believe it or not, I'm trying to help you here.

Oh, so being the author and engineer of the COC is nothing, huh? What if it had been Richard Spencer who wrote it with the idea to promote his views in the open source community? Would you say that was "irrelevant" then? I wouldn't. And RMS has said GNU would NEVER have a CoC like this one; that IS taking a stand. And I literally was implied to be a tiki torch wielding Nazi. I have the screencap.


Last edited by Dolus on 26 September 2018 at 5:04 pm UTC

I'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

First, I have always been generally supportive of Richard Stallman. It's my opinion that the backlash against him is essentially corporate in nature--he constitutes something of a threat to the dominant commercial mindset and so he gets marginalized. This has little to do with the nature of the Open Source/Free Software community in specific and much more to do with the nature of the broader society it is in. Doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to agree with every single word he ever says; I can see him disagreeing with something like this CoC, but that doesn't in itself change my opinion of the matter. Or my generally very positive opinion of RMS. I'm not as big on Eric Raymond, who doesn't strike me as a very similar person even though they're often talked of in the same breath.

Second, you've linked to a bunch of twitter posts and none of them seem to me to mean what you portray them as meaning--in some cases so obviously that I find it hard to buy the notion that you are sincere in believing your portrayal.

tuubi just made the point that what "being a dick" means is far more arbitrary if you don't even have a document to define what "being a dick" is.
So really, that's a problem with not having a CoC more than with having one.

Most people don't have a problem with a CoC. It's THIS CoC that is the problem. I don't have a problem with the Ruby CoC, for example.

That really, really, really isn't how your comments to this point have been sounding. The general tenor has been along the "all limits on how people can talk in lists are nefarious SJW plots cuz they're out to get us" lines.
If that's your opinion you might have made it clear, oh, somewhere around the time a bunch of the people you were arguing with expressed that exact same opinion while you were going off on them.
So what's all the heat about then? Do you have some kind of old personal vendetta going with this Coraline person or something?


Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 26 September 2018 at 5:23 pm UTC

I'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

First, I have always been generally supportive of Richard Stallman. It's my opinion that the backlash against him is essentially corporate in nature--he constitutes something of a threat to the dominant commercial mindset and so he gets marginalized. This has little to do with the nature of the Open Source/Free Software community in specific and much more to do with the nature of the broader society it is in. Doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to agree with every single word he ever says; I can see him disagreeing with something like this CoC, but that doesn't in itself change my opinion of the matter. Or my generally very positive opinion of RMS. I'm not as big on Eric Raymond, who doesn't strike me as a very similar person even though they're often talked of in the same breath.

Second, you've linked to a bunch of twitter posts and none of them seem to me to mean what you portray them as meaning--in some cases so obviously that I find it hard to buy the notion that you are sincere in believing your portrayal.

I'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

First, I have always been generally supportive of Richard Stallman. It's my opinion that the backlash against him is essentially corporate in nature--he constitutes something of a threat to the dominant commercial mindset and so he gets marginalized. This has little to do with the nature of the Open Source/Free Software community in specific and much more to do with the nature of the broader society it is in. Doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to agree with every single word he ever says; I can see him disagreeing with something like this CoC, but that doesn't in itself change my opinion of the matter. Or my generally very positive opinion of RMS. I'm not as big on Eric Raymond, who doesn't strike me as a very similar person even though they're often talked of in the same breath.

Second, you've linked to a bunch of twitter posts and none of them seem to me to mean what you portray them as meaning--in some cases so obviously that I find it hard to buy the notion that you are sincere in believing your portrayal.

I have not linked ANY Twitter posts so far. What are you talking about.

Here, is a little something that might blow your mind: I do not care. I do not care about a contributors sexuality, religion or political affiliation. If their contributions make Linux a better kernel, they should be allowed to contribute. That is how it should be. Instead we now have these neon haired puritans

So, not their sexuality, religion or political affiliation, but you do care about the colour of their hair.

That is about political 'leanings' as opposed to an official affiliation with any particular party. And that is perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned. There really is only one group wearing the neon hair right now. And it's not the anime community anymore. And I'm a bisexual deist, btw, so you can take everything else you were trying to imply here and shove it.

I'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

A year from now Linux is going to end up JUST like FreeBSD. Half of the community is going to pack up and leave because they were accused of being everything from a Nazi (I saved a screen cap, btw) to a *phobe of every variety JUST for believing this CoC is not *just* about playing nice. And this entire thread shows that to be true.

You really are going overboard here. Calm down.
a) Coraline is in no way involved in the Linux kernel. You are bringing her into this discussion when she has nothing to do with it beyond authoring the CoC. And if that's sufficient to destroy a project, you'd best tell Google, Microsoft, Apple, and thousands of Open Source projects that apparently they shouldn't be in existence because they use the same CoC. Let me repeat this: Coraline has _no_ involvement in the decisions made about the CoC as it relates to the Linux kernel. None.
b) RMS disapproves of codes of conduct in general, but otherwise this doesn't affect him. That's all he's said. Hardly "taking a stand".
c) It's really easy to have a discussion disagreeing without stating that half the community will be accused of being a Nazi (and actually, looking back, I don't think you were - but I do see how you might have felt that way). It's not about disagreeing that a few are having problems about with your comments - it's the way you're coming across (hint: not as reasonable). You're own words are aggressive. This will only result in people being aggressive back to you, and you don't then have the right to complain about it. Calm down, at least try be more reasoned, see where it gets you. Believe it or not, I'm trying to help you here.

Oh, so being the author and engineer of the COC is nothing, huh? What if it had been Richard Spencer who wrote it with the idea to promote his views in the open source community? Would you say that was "irrelevant" then? I wouldn't. And RMS has said GNU would NEVER have a CoC like this one; that IS taking a stand. And I literally was implied to be a tiki torch wielding Nazi. I have the screencap.

I don't know the reference, but the image I saw looked seriously like a comedy film to me. Something more out of Rocky Horror. That was not calling you a Nazi. Walk through some of the camps and then continue your banter about that.
You're behaviour is terrible. You're trying to call people out on something clearly intended with humour, while stating that a CoC will be used to call people out for social justice reasons. That's really hypocritical of you.
RMS is staying out of _this_ CoC discussion. So you're statement is flawed in that regard. That's from RMS himself.

Who is Richard Spencer? No idea myself. I guess someone unpleasant. But your statement "to promote his views in the open source community" does not apply to Coraline. She wrote a Code of Conduct. Obviously others are finding it reasonable. She's not forcing it upon anyone - she has no power to do so. Even if she tried to use some dubious wording, the TAB has authority and can say "that's not in the spirit of the CoC as the kernel has adopted it". So unless Coraline holds power over the TAB, which she does not, then her views are indeed irrelevant. And if the TAB holds the same views, then again her views are moot because the TAB would already be doing what you fear (which they are not).

You know damn well what the tiki torch is a dog whistle for. Even if you're not an American. Don't play coy.

tuubi just made the point that what "being a dick" means is far more arbitrary if you don't even have a document to define what "being a dick" is.
So really, that's a problem with not having a CoC more than with having one.

Most people don't have a problem with a CoC. It's THIS CoC that is the problem. I don't have a problem with the Ruby CoC, for example.

That really, really, really isn't how your comments to this point have been sounding. The general tenor has been along the "all limits on how people can talk in lists are nefarious SJW plots cuz they're out to get us" lines.
If that's your opinion you might have made it clear, oh, somewhere around the time a bunch of the people you were arguing with expressed that exact same opinion while you were going off on them.
So what's all the heat about then? Do you have some kind of old personal vendetta going with this Coraline person or something?

If Linux would have adopted the same CoC as Ruby, I woudn't have said a peep. THAT CoC is fine.

Here, is a little something that might blow your mind: I do not care. I do not care about a contributors sexuality, religion or political affiliation. If their contributions make Linux a better kernel, they should be allowed to contribute. That is how it should be. Instead we now have these neon haired puritans

So, not their sexuality, religion or political affiliation, but you do care about the colour of their hair.

That is about political 'leanings' as opposed to an official affiliation with any particular party. And that is perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned. There really is only one group wearing the neon hair right now. And it's not the anime community anymore. And I'm a bisexual deist, btw, so you can take everything else you were trying to imply here and shove it.

I'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

A year from now Linux is going to end up JUST like FreeBSD. Half of the community is going to pack up and leave because they were accused of being everything from a Nazi (I saved a screen cap, btw) to a *phobe of every variety JUST for believing this CoC is not *just* about playing nice. And this entire thread shows that to be true.

You really are going overboard here. Calm down.
a) Coraline is in no way involved in the Linux kernel. You are bringing her into this discussion when she has nothing to do with it beyond authoring the CoC. And if that's sufficient to destroy a project, you'd best tell Google, Microsoft, Apple, and thousands of Open Source projects that apparently they shouldn't be in existence because they use the same CoC. Let me repeat this: Coraline has _no_ involvement in the decisions made about the CoC as it relates to the Linux kernel. None.
b) RMS disapproves of codes of conduct in general, but otherwise this doesn't affect him. That's all he's said. Hardly "taking a stand".
c) It's really easy to have a discussion disagreeing without stating that half the community will be accused of being a Nazi (and actually, looking back, I don't think you were - but I do see how you might have felt that way). It's not about disagreeing that a few are having problems about with your comments - it's the way you're coming across (hint: not as reasonable). You're own words are aggressive. This will only result in people being aggressive back to you, and you don't then have the right to complain about it. Calm down, at least try be more reasoned, see where it gets you. Believe it or not, I'm trying to help you here.

Oh, so being the author and engineer of the COC is nothing, huh? What if it had been Richard Spencer who wrote it with the idea to promote his views in the open source community? Would you say that was "irrelevant" then? I wouldn't. And RMS has said GNU would NEVER have a CoC like this one; that IS taking a stand. And I literally was implied to be a tiki torch wielding Nazi. I have the screencap.

I don't know the reference, but the image I saw looked seriously like a comedy film to me. Something more out of Rocky Horror. That was not calling you a Nazi. Walk through some of the camps and then continue your banter about that.

Well, hrm, yeah, but I still thought it was in pretty bad taste. And all that context that was invoked was retroactive--sure, I believe it was there, more or less, but it wasn't specified with the original offending post, and it wasn't specified IMO precisely to leave the non-ironic resonances intact. I would get seriously pissed off if someone did something like that one to me and I would not be appeased by a "where's your sense of humour?"
I did think it was crossing the line and I'm glad Liam took it down. It was exactly the kind of thing that a Code of Conduct (or in this case a good moderator) should stop. Just because I find Dolus to be a poor and aggressive communicator doesn't mean suddenly anything goes in communicating back.

I'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

First, I have always been generally supportive of Richard Stallman. It's my opinion that the backlash against him is essentially corporate in nature--he constitutes something of a threat to the dominant commercial mindset and so he gets marginalized. This has little to do with the nature of the Open Source/Free Software community in specific and much more to do with the nature of the broader society it is in. Doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to agree with every single word he ever says; I can see him disagreeing with something like this CoC, but that doesn't in itself change my opinion of the matter. Or my generally very positive opinion of RMS. I'm not as big on Eric Raymond, who doesn't strike me as a very similar person even though they're often talked of in the same breath.

Second, you've linked to a bunch of twitter posts and none of them seem to me to mean what you portray them as meaning--in some cases so obviously that I find it hard to buy the notion that you are sincere in believing your portrayal.

I'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

First, I have always been generally supportive of Richard Stallman. It's my opinion that the backlash against him is essentially corporate in nature--he constitutes something of a threat to the dominant commercial mindset and so he gets marginalized. This has little to do with the nature of the Open Source/Free Software community in specific and much more to do with the nature of the broader society it is in. Doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to agree with every single word he ever says; I can see him disagreeing with something like this CoC, but that doesn't in itself change my opinion of the matter. Or my generally very positive opinion of RMS. I'm not as big on Eric Raymond, who doesn't strike me as a very similar person even though they're often talked of in the same breath.

Second, you've linked to a bunch of twitter posts and none of them seem to me to mean what you portray them as meaning--in some cases so obviously that I find it hard to buy the notion that you are sincere in believing your portrayal.

I have not linked ANY Twitter posts so far. What are you talking about.

Apologies--I must be conflating some of your posts with other people who have been complaining big time about this Coraline and linking to her tweets.

Here, is a little something that might blow your mind: I do not care. I do not care about a contributors sexuality, religion or political affiliation. If their contributions make Linux a better kernel, they should be allowed to contribute. That is how it should be. Instead we now have these neon haired puritans

So, not their sexuality, religion or political affiliation, but you do care about the colour of their hair.

That is about political 'leanings' as opposed to an official affiliation with any particular party. And that is perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned. There really is only one group wearing the neon hair right now. And it's not the anime community anymore. And I'm a bisexual deist, btw, so you can take everything else you were trying to imply here and shove it.

I'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

A year from now Linux is going to end up JUST like FreeBSD. Half of the community is going to pack up and leave because they were accused of being everything from a Nazi (I saved a screen cap, btw) to a *phobe of every variety JUST for believing this CoC is not *just* about playing nice. And this entire thread shows that to be true.

You really are going overboard here. Calm down.
a) Coraline is in no way involved in the Linux kernel. You are bringing her into this discussion when she has nothing to do with it beyond authoring the CoC. And if that's sufficient to destroy a project, you'd best tell Google, Microsoft, Apple, and thousands of Open Source projects that apparently they shouldn't be in existence because they use the same CoC. Let me repeat this: Coraline has _no_ involvement in the decisions made about the CoC as it relates to the Linux kernel. None.
b) RMS disapproves of codes of conduct in general, but otherwise this doesn't affect him. That's all he's said. Hardly "taking a stand".
c) It's really easy to have a discussion disagreeing without stating that half the community will be accused of being a Nazi (and actually, looking back, I don't think you were - but I do see how you might have felt that way). It's not about disagreeing that a few are having problems about with your comments - it's the way you're coming across (hint: not as reasonable). You're own words are aggressive. This will only result in people being aggressive back to you, and you don't then have the right to complain about it. Calm down, at least try be more reasoned, see where it gets you. Believe it or not, I'm trying to help you here.

Oh, so being the author and engineer of the COC is nothing, huh? What if it had been Richard Spencer who wrote it with the idea to promote his views in the open source community? Would you say that was "irrelevant" then? I wouldn't. And RMS has said GNU would NEVER have a CoC like this one; that IS taking a stand. And I literally was implied to be a tiki torch wielding Nazi. I have the screencap.

I don't know the reference, but the image I saw looked seriously like a comedy film to me. Something more out of Rocky Horror. That was not calling you a Nazi. Walk through some of the camps and then continue your banter about that.
You're behaviour is terrible. You're trying to call people out on something clearly intended with humour, while stating that a CoC will be used to call people out for social justice reasons. That's really hypocritical of you.
RMS is staying out of _this_ CoC discussion. So you're statement is flawed in that regard. That's from RMS himself.

Who is Richard Spencer? No idea myself. I guess someone unpleasant. But your statement "to promote his views in the open source community" does not apply to Coraline. She wrote a Code of Conduct. Obviously others are finding it reasonable. She's not forcing it upon anyone - she has no power to do so. Even if she tried to use some dubious wording, the TAB has authority and can say "that's not in the spirit of the CoC as the kernel has adopted it". So unless Coraline holds power over the TAB, which she does not, then her views are indeed irrelevant. And if the TAB holds the same views, then again her views are moot because the TAB would already be doing what you fear (which they are not).

You know damn well what the tiki torch is a dog whistle for. Even if you're not an American. Don't play coy.

Ahh, yes, I know that arrogance. Presuming the whole world is exactly the same as your own experiences. I've said twice that I don't understand the reference. I've not seen that movie (and it does look like it's a still from a movie, but it could be a play for all I know, or random Internet meme that I've not seen).

So grow up a little and stop acting like a spoiled child.

Here, is a little something that might blow your mind: I do not care. I do not care about a contributors sexuality, religion or political affiliation. If their contributions make Linux a better kernel, they should be allowed to contribute. That is how it should be. Instead we now have these neon haired puritans

So, not their sexuality, religion or political affiliation, but you do care about the colour of their hair.

That is about political 'leanings' as opposed to an official affiliation with any particular party. And that is perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned. There really is only one group wearing the neon hair right now. And it's not the anime community anymore. And I'm a bisexual deist, btw, so you can take everything else you were trying to imply here and shove it.

I'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

A year from now Linux is going to end up JUST like FreeBSD. Half of the community is going to pack up and leave because they were accused of being everything from a Nazi (I saved a screen cap, btw) to a *phobe of every variety JUST for believing this CoC is not *just* about playing nice. And this entire thread shows that to be true.

You really are going overboard here. Calm down.
a) Coraline is in no way involved in the Linux kernel. You are bringing her into this discussion when she has nothing to do with it beyond authoring the CoC. And if that's sufficient to destroy a project, you'd best tell Google, Microsoft, Apple, and thousands of Open Source projects that apparently they shouldn't be in existence because they use the same CoC. Let me repeat this: Coraline has _no_ involvement in the decisions made about the CoC as it relates to the Linux kernel. None.
b) RMS disapproves of codes of conduct in general, but otherwise this doesn't affect him. That's all he's said. Hardly "taking a stand".
c) It's really easy to have a discussion disagreeing without stating that half the community will be accused of being a Nazi (and actually, looking back, I don't think you were - but I do see how you might have felt that way). It's not about disagreeing that a few are having problems about with your comments - it's the way you're coming across (hint: not as reasonable). You're own words are aggressive. This will only result in people being aggressive back to you, and you don't then have the right to complain about it. Calm down, at least try be more reasoned, see where it gets you. Believe it or not, I'm trying to help you here.

Oh, so being the author and engineer of the COC is nothing, huh? What if it had been Richard Spencer who wrote it with the idea to promote his views in the open source community? Would you say that was "irrelevant" then? I wouldn't. And RMS has said GNU would NEVER have a CoC like this one; that IS taking a stand. And I literally was implied to be a tiki torch wielding Nazi. I have the screencap.

I don't know the reference, but the image I saw looked seriously like a comedy film to me. Something more out of Rocky Horror. That was not calling you a Nazi. Walk through some of the camps and then continue your banter about that.
You're behaviour is terrible. You're trying to call people out on something clearly intended with humour, while stating that a CoC will be used to call people out for social justice reasons. That's really hypocritical of you.
RMS is staying out of _this_ CoC discussion. So you're statement is flawed in that regard. That's from RMS himself.

Who is Richard Spencer? No idea myself. I guess someone unpleasant. But your statement "to promote his views in the open source community" does not apply to Coraline. She wrote a Code of Conduct. Obviously others are finding it reasonable. She's not forcing it upon anyone - she has no power to do so. Even if she tried to use some dubious wording, the TAB has authority and can say "that's not in the spirit of the CoC as the kernel has adopted it". So unless Coraline holds power over the TAB, which she does not, then her views are indeed irrelevant. And if the TAB holds the same views, then again her views are moot because the TAB would already be doing what you fear (which they are not).

You know damn well what the tiki torch is a dog whistle for. Even if you're not an American. Don't play coy.

Ahh, yes, I know that arrogance. Presuming the whole world is exactly the same as your own experiences. I've said twice that I don't understand the reference. I've not seen that movie (and it does look like it's a still from a movie, but it could be a play for all I know, or random Internet meme that I've not seen).

So grow up a little and stop acting like a spoiled child.

It's damn good to be an American, what can I say? But that aside, the tiki torch incident was broadcast all over the world. It be came a meme on Twitter. It's not *just* an American thing when the BBC uses 'tiki torch' as shorthand.

It's damn good to be an American, what can I say? But that aside, the tiki torch incident was broadcast all over the world. It be came a meme on Twitter. It's not *just* an American thing when the BBC uses 'tiki torch' as shorthand.

I'm neither North American or South American, and I'm not British, or of a nationality from any country within the BBC's broadcasting scope. So no, it was obviously not broadcast all over the world if I've never heard about it before, or seen it. Just because you think something is well known, doesn't mean others do.
What happened was clearly bad. I've asked for information about what it is. I'll make up my own mind about how that translates to being called a Nazi (which is something I take quite seriously) when I'm more informed on the matter. But that content has all been removed, and regardless you cannot lump "half the community" in with it. While it may have gone too far apparently, your own words and language did invite some kind of response, making you not entirely blameless. If you can recognise that, you can recognise that you yourself then have some measure of control of such actions within the community, and the ability to make it a better place.

Have you been to r/linux lately? That happens all the time there. How long do you expect people who disagree with this CoC to stick around when they're being called every taboo thing under the sun? Nobody likes being called a Nazi. Nobody likes being called a bigot. Especially when all they are trying to do is show people how this CoC was designed to be abusive.

People are going to leave. Lots of people. Then all you will have left working in and contributing to the kernel are people who share a lot of political leanings with the head suites at MS, Google, and Intel. How convenient.


Last edited by Dolus on 26 September 2018 at 5:52 pm UTC

You know damn well what the tiki torch is a dog whistle for. Even if you're not an American. Don't play coy.

Ahh, yes, I know that arrogance. Presuming the whole world is exactly the same as your own experiences. I've said twice that I don't understand the reference. I've not seen that movie (and it does look like it's a still from a movie, but it could be a play for all I know, or random Internet meme that I've not seen).

So grow up a little and stop acting like a spoiled child.

The specific reference is the opposite of the point. The point is that in the absence of the specific reference, it looks like one of those weenie white supremacist neo-nazi types who parade in the US with tiki-torches (because they can't get real ones) and have been increasing significantly in visibility in the US in recent years. There are similar types on the rise in many countries in Europe. They've been all over the friggin' headlines ever since Trump was elected; whether there are actually any more of them or whether this is largely a media narrative thing is unclear to me. But they are there, they are nasty, and they certainly all object strenuously to "SJWs". So if you take someone who is complaining about a Code of Conduct and, strenuously, about a person who is being described as an "SJW", and you say they look like that, then in the absence of whatever specific meme, you're calling them a neo-nazi. Sure, maybe it looks a little silly to be a real neo-nazi, but there are some pretty silly-looking real neo-nazis out there.
I would say it was that post with the picture which, at best, arrogantly assumed everyone had the same experience. I have no idea what the specific reference is supposed to be either; the person said it was a character who was some sort of ironic fake neo-nazi and so it's OK. I have no reason to doubt that it really was that character, but I'm not at all so clear that that makes it OK, and only partly because I don't know who the hell the character is.


Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 26 September 2018 at 5:54 pm UTC

Have you been to r/linux lately? That happens all the time there. How long do you expect people who disagree with this CoC to stick around when they're being called every taboo thing under the sun? Nobody likes being called a Nazi. Nobody likes being called a bigot. Especially when all they are trying to do is show people how this CoC was designed to be abusive.

People are going to leave. Lots of people. Then all you will have left working in and contributing to the kernel are people who share a lot of political leanings with the head suites at MS, Google, and Intel. How convenient.

Everyone knows /r/linux is a perpetual car crash but that's beside the point. Regarding people who are leaving, who exactly is leaving? I've seen a bunch of talk about the spooky "Linux killswitch" but so far in terms of actual results we've seen an SC Controller dev take a break. This whole thing is blown completely out of proportion and some people seem to be purposefully fanning the flames and making the situation seem way more dire than it actually is.

It's been made abundantly clear in this thread that the CoC does not move power away from the people that already had the power, it does not increase the power of those that held power before and even if it opens up people for rules lawyering the people previously in charge will get to make the final decisions. All this talk about how the SJWs will dictate how the kernel is run and how code will make it into the kernel based on identity rather than code quality is wild hyperbole.

This community has been fractured for the sake of a thing it never needed in the first place; by people who only wish to drive people they disagree with out of the community. That is the reality. That is all I have left to say on the matter. Enjoy following FreeBSD's act into decline.

I didn't recognise the still image in the offending post when I deleted it, but there were nazi overtones to it, so I removed it to be on the safe side and to help calm everyone down. Even if it was intended humorously (and I doubt that), it certainly wasn't taken that way and I agree with Purple Library Guy that it appeared to be fairly bad taste.

Dolus, one point of clarification - Coraline didn't write the Linux CoC. She wrote the "template" Code of Conduct document which anyone is free to use and modify as it suits their project and ethics. You can read more about it here: https://www.contributor-covenant.org. As Mirv noted, it has over 40 thousand projects using it, and the whole thing is released under creative commons.

Hating on Coraline for writing it is a little like hating Tim Berners Lee when you don't like a website. Or hating Stallman when you find a distribution you don't like. They might have created the original, but their work was only a template for others to use and modify as they see fit.

If you have issues with the CoC, I'm sure the Linux Foundation has a way to raise those and hopefully a process to introduce changes as their use of this document evolves. No two projects are the same, no two communities are the same, so I'd expect that the Linux Foundation have a rocky ride ahead of them because a) this stuff isn't easy and b) they have a poor history of desperately needing a CoC and not having one, so there's a lot of heated debate on both sides.

As I said earlier, it's probably best to give this one a few months for the dust to settle.


[EDIT: One other point of clarification, while FreeDesktop (and all its sub-projects) adopted this CoC as its template around 18 months ago, FreeBSD went its own way and don't use this one at all]

EDIT2: This [fantastic and extremely short blog post by Daniel Stone from April 2017 is worth a read - particularly those two sections where he notes that CoCs do NOT cause splits in the community, and where he notes that nearly every open source project of note on the planet uses them, barring (comically) the Linux Kernel!]


Last edited by scaine on 26 September 2018 at 10:16 pm UTC

Pro CoC wants to change the norms around abusive behaviour and language in the kernel dev community (which goes right up to Torvalds). Con CoC is worried this empowers moderators to exclude developers who don't share their ideological views. The former goal is laudible, and the latter concern is justified (eg Johnathan Haidt's work on academia).

This CoC simply codifies the powers Linux maintainers have had all along. The "Con CoC" crowd seem to have trouble understanding this basic fact. Could be because they'd rather just keep fighting the scary SJW cabal that keeps taking away their toys.

Nope.
Read the CoC.
It does not center on abusive behavior. It focuses on vaguely-termed abusive persons. It does not tell people not to write racist/sexist/etc. posts. It tells they can not be racist/sexist/etc. Wording is important. This potentially empowers moderators to expel people based on their own personal choices in other domains, apart from the linux kernel. This is an enormous difference.

Hmmm. Where? All the language in the Contibutor Covenant, the template CoC adopted by the Linux Foundation, focuses squarely on behaviours. There's no mention of "abusive persons" and no language that I personally find to be vague. Well, no actually there is one "catch all" phrase at the end which could be an issue: "Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting". I have no idea if the Linux Foundation left that in though.

So I'm curious how you see that this could possibly "empower moderators to expel people based on their own personal choices". The examples of behaviour are cut and dried. And there's only five of them? Read for yourself.

Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include:

• The use of sexualized language or imagery and unwelcome sexual attention or advances



• Trolling, insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political attacks


• Public or private harassment


• Publishing others’ private information, such as a physical or electronic address, without explicit permission


• Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting

Seriously, have you read the right CoC, or have the Linux Foundation added a bunch of stuff that I don't know about??

EDIT: Nope, the Linux Foundation adopted the core template pretty much as is, as far as I can tell. [Read for yourself.]


Last edited by scaine on 26 September 2018 at 10:25 pm UTC

Pro CoC wants to change the norms around abusive behaviour and language in the kernel dev community (which goes right up to Torvalds). Con CoC is worried this empowers moderators to exclude developers who don't share their ideological views. The former goal is laudible, and the latter concern is justified (eg Johnathan Haidt's work on academia).

This CoC simply codifies the powers Linux maintainers have had all along. The "Con CoC" crowd seem to have trouble understanding this basic fact. Could be because they'd rather just keep fighting the scary SJW cabal that keeps taking away their toys.

Nope.
Read the CoC.
It does not center on abusive behavior. It focuses on vaguely-termed abusive persons. It does not tell people not to write racist/sexist/etc. posts. It tells they can not be racist/sexist/etc. Wording is important. This potentially empowers moderators to expel people based on their own personal choices in other domains, apart from the linux kernel. This is an enormous difference.

That seemed like a significant objection. Except, scaine has made clear (plus I followed scaine's link and did read it) that you turn out to be completely wrong. As you were on the Canadian supposed "wrong pronoun-->jail" legislation. Whatever your sources are on this kind of thing, I think you need to start doubting them.


Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 26 September 2018 at 11:26 pm UTC

Pro CoC wants to change the norms around abusive behaviour and language in the kernel dev community (which goes right up to Torvalds). Con CoC is worried this empowers moderators to exclude developers who don't share their ideological views. The former goal is laudible, and the latter concern is justified (eg Johnathan Haidt's work on academia).

This CoC simply codifies the powers Linux maintainers have had all along. The "Con CoC" crowd seem to have trouble understanding this basic fact. Could be because they'd rather just keep fighting the scary SJW cabal that keeps taking away their toys.

Nope.
Read the CoC.
It does not center on abusive behavior. It focuses on vaguely-termed abusive persons. It does not tell people not to write racist/sexist/etc. posts. It tells they can not be racist/sexist/etc. Wording is important. This potentially empowers moderators to expel people based on their own personal choices in other domains, apart from the linux kernel. This is an enormous difference.

That seemed like a significant objection. Except, scaine has made clear (plus I followed scaine's link and did read it) that you turn out to be completely wrong. As you were on the Canadian supposed "wrong pronoun-->jail" legislation. Whatever your sources are on this kind of thing, I think you need to start doubting them.

That's the thing they won't doubt their sources because their sources are legit brainwashing them all the time ...

Also for the record I blocked Dolus because plain simple

Manga = comics of japanese origin those are comics too , and european comics are comics too so once again the comics industry at large is indeed knowing an unprecedented golden age . The reason why Marvel and DC are going down the drain have nothing to do with them trying to be inclusive (and failing misearably at it) and has everything to do with all other bad practices.
(Bad practices that were already in place in the 90's and were so self evident and unbearable that McFarlane and friends decided to get the hell out of the two big ones and found their own publishing house Image Comics)
So from now on given that you have decided to wear eye lids and think it was a smart thing to do so will I . Except mine are only blocking you out...


Last edited by TheSyldat on 27 September 2018 at 1:27 am UTC