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Ad hominem is ad hominem,

That we agree on

but I have better things to do than congratulate random internet strangers for the shape of the turd they deign to drop on a conversation.

How about you start practicing now ...


Last edited by TheSyldat on 29 September 2018 at 4:05 pm UTC

Ad hominem is ad hominem,

That we agree on

but I have better things to do than congratulate random internet strangers for the shape of the turd they deign to drop on a conversation.

How about you start practicing now ...

Sure. Let's do it together. You repeat to yourself: "There are good people who deserve my respect outside my bubble" and I'll meditate on the virtue of patience.

Either you get it or you need to watch red state or have somebody doing some piece of art that will make you understand what that sentence ACTUALLY means.

No, I don't get it. I've tried. Your tone make it hard, but I'll continue to try.

All I can do at this point is continue to be civil and supportive. No idea what "red state" is, but I'll maybe look that up. I'm not sure what you meant by having somebody do a piece of art.

I'm not sure what you meant by having somebody do a piece of art.

By that I meant that if Red State still doesn't make you understand what I truly means then maybe another film with a similar situation at the end.
Or another game , or another book or another painting.
Sometimes art allows you to tilt your head in a certain way and you start understanding somehting differently and some words take a whole new meaning.
Well here that's the same until you either have been in my situation (or similar) or a piece of art made you realize what it's like you won't understand what I mean by "only an abuser or a silent accomplice gets mad at being called one"


Last edited by TheSyldat on 29 September 2018 at 4:18 pm UTC

Ad hominem is ad hominem,

That we agree on

but I have better things to do than congratulate random internet strangers for the shape of the turd they deign to drop on a conversation.

How about you start practicing now ...

Sure. Let's do it together. You repeat to yourself: "There are good people who deserve my respect outside my bubble" and I'll meditate on the virtue of patience.

Then start meditating now ...

I get the feeling that a big part of what TheSyldat wants to express are actually feelings, not arguments. This would explain several things, including the piece of art needed or being on TheSyldat's(*) side of the fence. Proper arguments can be understood on any side of a fence, feelings sometimes way less so.

(*) I'm always working around the pronoun here. TheSyldat, is there any of your choice?


Last edited by Eike on 29 September 2018 at 4:23 pm UTC

I get the feeling that a big part of what TheSyldat wants to express are actually feelings, not arguments. This would explain several things, including the piece of art needed or being on TheSyldat's(*) side of the fence. Proper arguments can be understood on any side of a fence, feelings sometimes way less so.

(*) I'm always working around the pronoun here. TheSyldat, is there any of your choice?

Not exactly feelings more like "in order for you to truly get what kind of psychological harm does society's gearing generates , you need to be in my boots otherwise you're only "fathoming it" but it's just that "fathoming" it's not understanding."

Like I said He/Him for me please.


Last edited by TheSyldat on 29 September 2018 at 4:29 pm UTC

Not exactly feelings more like "in order for you to truly get what kind of psychological harm does society's gearing generates , you need to be in my boots otherwise you're only "fathoming it" but it's just that "fathoming" it's not understanding."

Now that's something I can totally (not sure about the English term) sign. The older I get the more I feel there's thing you won't even remotely fathom/feel until you've actually walked in their boots. (Which sometimes is impossible or unwanted, obviously.)

Now that's something I can totally (not sure about the English term) sign. The older I get the more I feel there's thing you won't even remotely fathom/feel until you've actually walked in their boots. (Which sometimes is impossible or unwanted, obviously.)

That's why I'm so thankfully for Kevin Smith's Red State because quite a lot of the people that are cis gendered and straight who "finally get it" that I know and I'm surrounded by have seen the movie and at the end it clicked in their brain they finally understood. And guees what no more fights with those people why because they're more than just fathoming it , they understand it.

They are still straight , they are still cis they won't change that anytime soon but they get it now.
They truly get what it's like to be in my boots.


Last edited by TheSyldat on 29 September 2018 at 4:43 pm UTC

The last few pages of back-and-forth started looking really boring to me, didn't seem like they were getting anywhere much, so I feel like saying it: All these identity issues, whether of gender, race, or whatever, would be, while still to some extent there, much more muted if we fundamentally changed society in a way that greatly increased equality generally.
Right now what we've got is a situation where there are huge differences in wealth and power. Most of it belongs to white males--although as Scott Adams once put it, those are other white males, not anyone you or I ever talk to. But going below the top people in control, there is a whole pyramid of difference from bottom to top, and who goes in what bit is systematically influenced by all the prejudice factors. The economic system divides us up into (mostly) white haves and black (mostly) have-nots, male have-mores and female have-lesses, and so on. Not that there aren't any poor white people--there's plenty spots at the bottom to go around--but there's still a serious pattern. And it leaves those higher up deathly afraid of other groups taking their spots, because a hierarchy pyramid is a zero-sum game. There have to be a bunch of people at the bottom, so if anyone moves up, someone previously secure is gonna have to move down. This incidentally is true even if it's a genuine meritocracy (which it clearly isn't)--if every member of some disadvantaged group suddenly acquired awesome qualificatons by the wave of a wand, and jumped up into the excellent good-paying jobs those qualifications deserved by some act of a deity, someone would still have to clean the floors and pick the fruit and serve the coffee. Maybe someone who wasn't doing that before.
Further, our political economy is deathly afraid of people combining into groups; those at the top gain from people being at each other's throats by category. It's no accident that certain very rich people don't just finance economically right wing, free market groups (which is what you'd obviously expect), they finance socially right wing, racist, anti-LGBTQ-et-al, antifeminist type groups as well. It is useful for the dominance of capital if people who don't have any are at each other's throats instead of looking up at the people with the money and power.
So the politics of identity (alone) is forced to be rather extreme as long as it can't address the problems of inequality, social atomization, and systematic insecurity which fuel the problems of prejudice. You have to treat symptoms a lot harder when you can't touch the cause or don't even know what it is. Not that treating symptoms is useless, but if someone is really serious about trans or racial or gay or women's issues, they should also back some variant of socialism (real socialism, as in workers owning the means of production, not whatever Bernie Sanders means when he says it), because people can't all be equal until people are all equal, and people can't truly come together until they are no longer being systematically divided.

There. Now everyone on all sides can be mad at me! ;)

Right now what we've got is a situation where there are huge differences in wealth and power. Most of it belongs to white males--although as Scott Adams once put it, those are other white males, not anyone you or I ever talk to. But going below the top people in control, there is a whole pyramid of difference from bottom to top, and who goes in what bit is systematically influenced by all the prejudice factors. The economic system divides us up into (mostly) white haves and black (mostly) have-nots, male have-mores and female have-lesses, and so on.

This is true, but notice that many of these issues, while completely valid, are pretty much optional and interchangeable. There's basically no nation, big or small, no matter how racially and religiously homogenous, where you can't find the whole scale of people living in the streets to a small elite owning pretty much everything there is to own. Proportions might vary but that's inevitable.

This is certainly true of Finland. While there is the expected amount of racism (obviously), in effect our nation is almost all white and minority races aren't in the financially most dire situation in our local "hierarchy". Gender equality is better than in some Western countries, but far from perfect. Homophobia still flourishes and so on.

Even smaller Middle Eastern, African or Asian nations, right down to tiny tribes on the Amazon, with extremely homogenous populations, show the same sort of multi-tier hierarchy. I guess that's just social animals being social animals. If only we could find a way to rise above it all.

The rest of your post is hard to disagree with, socialism bit included, as long as we remember that human beings aren't very suited for sharing equally and will botch it up eventually. We'll obviously have to find a middle ground of sorts somewhere much closer to the socialist ideals, but not something completely unrealistic that ignores and conflicts with human individuality. And all of this demands a starting point where people are somewhat content and happy with their lives, even at the bottom.

There. Now everyone on all sides can be mad at me! ;)

Well I'm not. How about you stop making sense if you're looking for a fight? :P

(Disclaimer: I'm drunk)

I find Purple Library Guy (how'd you come up with that name anyway??) to be depressingly spot on for the most part. Try reading that block of text after five pints. It's a challenge. But it rings true to my slightly addled mind.

I can't believe my whole Star Trek dream is shattered in one post on the internet. Thanks man...

So the politics of identity (alone) is forced to be rather extreme as long as it can't address the problems of inequality, social atomization, and systematic insecurity which fuel the problems of prejudice. You have to treat symptoms a lot harder when you can't touch the cause or don't even know what it is. Not that treating symptoms is useless, but if someone is really serious about trans or racial or gay or women's issues, they should also back some variant of socialism (real socialism, as in workers owning the means of production, not whatever Bernie Sanders means when he says it), because people can't all be equal until people are all equal, and people can't truly come together until they are no longer being systematically divided.

There. Now everyone on all sides can be mad at me! ;)

makes a poor impresonnation of Master Yoda
A true Aurovilian in the making we found, Sharp is his mind. For the right reasons his FLOSS worries are.

Now on the other hand don't have too many episodes like this one or some of my fellow Northerners Frenchies will think you've been raised in Lille :P
(seriously that last paragraph felt like it flew right out of the mouth of a native of Lille like me, beware dude you're turning into a fleming. )


Last edited by TheSyldat on 29 September 2018 at 11:46 pm UTC

Not that there is anything wrong with being a Fleming (although lately 2K and EA beg to differ ... ) but you know if one day you end up in my neck of the woods at the night in Lille's "street of thirst" you might come back home with more ethanol than blood in your bloodstream :P

Not that there is anything wrong with being a Fleming (although lately 2K and EA beg to differ ... ) but you know if one day you end up in my neck of the woods at the night in Lille's "street of thirst" you might come back home with more ethanol than blood in your bloodstream :P

I have only ever been in one very small part of Lille for a couple of hours while I waited for a train connection--was going from Arras, where being Canadian I'd been checking out the Vimy WW I memorial, to Oxford. That little bit seemed really nice though, wouldn't mind going back to check it out a bit more. I'm more up for patisseries and chocolate than drinking though.

I know your avater isn't precisely a beholder, but somehow it always makes me think of this:
Tsundere Beholder t-shirt


Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 30 September 2018 at 8:19 pm UTC

(Disclaimer: I'm drunk)

I find Purple Library Guy (how'd you come up with that name anyway??)

It's an oddly mundane self-description. My favourite colour is purple, I wear purple including a purple beret most of the time. And I work in a library. I kind of became known around the university as the "purple library guy". And I thought, wherever I go that handle probably hasn't been taken . . .

There. Now everyone on all sides can be mad at me! ;)

Well I'm not. How about you stop making sense if you're looking for a fight? :P

In my experience, making sense is often a great way to start a fight. :D

I have only ever been in one very small part of Lille for a couple of hours while I waited for a train connection--was going from Arras, where being Canadian I'd been checking out the Vimy WW I memorial, to Oxford. That little bit seemed really nice though, wouldn't mind going back to check it out a bit more. I'm more up for patisseries and chocolate than drinking though.

Well when it comes to chocolate being a native Lille my Belgian fleming brothers and sisters are legit right next door , so we have a solid offer to browse through that's for sure :P

I know your avater isn't precisely a beholder, but somehow it always makes me think of this:
Tsundere Beholder t-shirt

Oh My God this is equal parts dorky , adorable and hilarious I might end up buying one if it's still exist...

Even smaller Middle Eastern, African or Asian nations, right down to tiny tribes on the Amazon, with extremely homogenous populations, show the same sort of multi-tier hierarchy. I guess that's just social animals being social animals. If only we could find a way to rise above it all.

I think in some ways open source points in a direction. In open source software projects, people involved are often unpaid, and furthermore they have no power over others; even in projects with "benevolent dictators" those dictators have no actual power--they can't force anyone to contribute, they can't even tell anyone what to contribute, and if people stop feeling like listening, they can fork it. But those involved do get respect and kudos for their contributions, and many seem to find this very satisfying. Open source shows that although people may have a need for some sort of status, to be able to strut their stuff, to get respect, it doesn't have to be connected to wealth, or even power.
So I think good forms of socialism would have to work on that decoupling. Rather than attempting to make everyone the same, the aim should be for as many people as possible get to have kudos for whatever their line of cool stuff is, but the currency is pure respect, it's separated from extra wealth or ability to coerce other people.


Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 30 September 2018 at 10:23 pm UTC

So I think good forms of socialism would have to work on that decoupling. Rather than attempting to make everyone the same, the aim should be for as many people as possible get to have kudos for whatever their line of cool stuff is, but the currency is pure respect, it's separated from extra wealth or ability to coerce other people.

So true, but that's only part of the puzzle. Taking part in volunteer projects or doing any sort of cool stuff already indicates a certain privilege. There will still be people who simply cannot contribute in any meaningful way, and people who will not be content with their situation, whatever it is. There'll be people with physical or psychological problems and people with self-esteem issues etc.

I think there's an unlikely milestone to reach before anything else can happen: We all need to agree on a common goal. That goal being the happiness of everyone, indiscriminately. That needn't mean equal access to material goods or enforced values beyond mutual respect. Those who have should be willing to share to those who need, simply because it makes sense. Also it makes both parties feel all warm and fuzzy which is a nice bonus.