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Quoting: scaine

Quoting: tuubiWill these people change if he calls me and the majority of the world's population "abusers"? Maybe it's a language barrier thing, but that's a serious accusation where I come from.

Sorry, I honestly don't see where Syldat has done so?

Quoting: TheSyldatYou just illustrated my previous points exactly with that very comment a knee jerk reaction that everybody have when they are told "if you're not LGBTQ then yes like it or not you're part of an overarching group that has been abuser" and somehow this is us classifying you as "an enemy" . No not an ennemy an abuser there is clear distinct difference but apparently you don't know that there is one ...

Quoting: Eike

Quoting: scaine

Quoting: tuubiWill these people change if he calls me and the majority of the world's population "abusers"? Maybe it's a language barrier thing, but that's a serious accusation where I come from.

Sorry, I honestly don't see where Syldat has done so?

Quoting: TheSyldatYou just illustrated my previous points exactly with that very comment a knee jerk reaction that everybody have when they are told "if you're not LGBTQ then yes like it or not you're part of an overarching group that has been abuser" and somehow this is us classifying you as "an enemy" . No not an ennemy an abuser there is clear distinct difference but apparently you don't know that there is one ...

Thanks.

This relates to the point I was addressing earlier when I spoke about #metoo: you're NOT being accused of "being an abuser", you're being shown that you're part of a group which is commonly an abuser.

And asking for leniency or distinction while still part of that group... keeps you (in a tiny way) as part of that group. Only WE (the group) can change this. This shouldn't be thrown back at the abused. Their opinion of the abuser group is utterly irrelevant too, except that it's typically used as a trigger for the abuser group to become EVEN MORE abusive.

Quoting: scaine

Quoting: Eike

Quoting: scaine

Quoting: tuubiWill these people change if he calls me and the majority of the world's population "abusers"? Maybe it's a language barrier thing, but that's a serious accusation where I come from.

Sorry, I honestly don't see where Syldat has done so?

Quoting: TheSyldatYou just illustrated my previous points exactly with that very comment a knee jerk reaction that everybody have when they are told "if you're not LGBTQ then yes like it or not you're part of an overarching group that has been abuser" and somehow this is us classifying you as "an enemy" . No not an ennemy an abuser there is clear distinct difference but apparently you don't know that there is one ...

Thanks.

This relates to the point I was addressing earlier when I spoke about #metoo: you're NOT being accused of "being an abuser", you're being shown that you're part of a group which is commonly an abuser.

I still read that as him saying I'm an abuser if I'm not abused, and I don't see how you'd read it differently. You don't need to try to rationalise his prejudice.

Quoting: scaineAnd asking for leniency or distinction while still part of that group... keeps you (in a tiny way) as part of that group. Only WE (the group) can change this. This shouldn't be thrown back at the abused. Their opinion of the abuser group is utterly irrelevant too, except that it's typically used as a trigger for the abuser group to become EVEN MORE abusive.

That's kind of nonsense. I'm saying we should not automatically be judged as part of one group just because we're not part of another. There have to be shades between the extremes of black and white, or black and rainbow maybe. There are plenty of CIS-gendered people who actively work against inequality and injustice. They should clearly not be painted with the "abuser" brush. Notice that I say they, not I. This isn't "not all ____". I am not denying past or ongoing abuse and injustices.

I was a socially awkward, nerdy kid in the eighties and nineties, and naturally got bullied in school a lot. That makes me a different kind of abused (not comparable, I know, but bear with me). Does that mean everyone who wasn't bullied at school is responsible? This is another example of a cultural problem, but the problem is the culture, not every single member equally. Not everybody is guilty, but obviously everyone has the responsibility to recognize, reject, and strive to rectify those harmful elements in their cultures. And that should be enough to earn our respect. It's childish to think that not solving a problem is the same as causing it.


EDIT: I just realised I refer to Syldat with the male pronouns, but I have to admit I'm not quite clear if that's what they'd prefer. No offence intended if that's not the case. I think gendered pronouns are extremely silly and should be abolished, but that's neither here nor there.


Last edited by tuubi on 29 September 2018 at 11:56 am UTC

Feels like we're going round in circles. I've said as much as I can on this subject.

Before I duck out, this is interesting though: "I'm saying we should not automatically be judged as part of one group just because we're not part of another". That exactly what's happening what's happening to some people every day. Every day. And when they point this out, they become the enemy.

All I'm saying is that we all need a bit of introspection to make any real change on this. And, you know, since this won't happen as "humanity", we need CoCs.

Quoting: scaineAll I'm saying is that we all need a bit of introspection to make any real change on this. And, you know, since this won't happen as "humanity", we need CoCs.

100% agreed.

Quoting: scaineAgain, this isn't about Syldat, but about other people's reaction. Some of these people won't change.

Eike you have your answer in a nutshell whether you like it or not if your a cis gendered straight person you are part of a group that has been oppressing people like me and to this day still does. The fact that you individualy don't is moot when it comes to me being suspicious of you , like it or not how the others acted upon me taint how I will react to you.

#notallmen #Imnotlikethem #notrueman , all of these are no ture scottsmen fallacy reaction of yours and by displaying it you only further down anxiety and suspicion is it really that hard to understand ?

Quoting: tuubiI don't hold every single modern-day Brit responsible for the atrocities committed in the name of the British empire,

But you should and that's where you fail here. Whether you like it or not past deeds of the groups your part of reflect upon you as a person (and rightfully so ) and as such you should acknowledge that sometimes things are bigger than just your tiny person. So it has nothing to do with inherited sin and all to do with basic human decency.

And male pronouns (even if I end up talking about me with feminine words sometimes , it's just brain chemistry doing its thing , just let it be don't acknowledge it when it's my personal case )


Last edited by TheSyldat on 29 September 2018 at 12:43 pm UTC

I am a Scotsman. How dare you! :D

Quoting: TheSyldat

Quoting: tuubiI don't hold every single modern-day Brit responsible for the atrocities committed in the name of the British empire,

But you should and that's where you fail here. Whether you like it or not past deeds of the groups your part of reflect upon you and as such you should acknowledge that sometimmes things are bigger than just your tiny person. So it has nothing to do with ineherited sin and all to do with basic human decency.

I think this is an English language thing, but I don't agree with the statement that we should "hold people responsible" for the sins of their ancestors. For me, it's more about being mindful of those sins, acknowledge that as part of the descendants, we're "part of the abuser group" (whether we are abusers or not) and therefore, do our best not to play into the prejudices of that group.

As I said before, have a bit of introspection and acknowledge that there's some things about you that you just can't change. For me, one way I can do that is to try to ask "how can I help", instead of getting antsy that I'm being lumped into a group for something I can't control. It's hard.

Quoting: scaine

Quoting: TheSyldat

Quoting: tuubiI don't hold every single modern-day Brit responsible for the atrocities committed in the name of the British empire,

But you should and that's where you fail here. Whether you like it or not past deeds of the groups your part of reflect upon you and as such you should acknowledge that sometimmes things are bigger than just your tiny person. So it has nothing to do with ineherited sin and all to do with basic human decency.

I think this is an English language thing, but I don't agree with the statement that we should "hold people responsible" for the sins of their ancestors. For me, it's more about being mindful of those sins, acknowledge that as part of the descendants, we're "part of the abuser group" (whether we are abusers or not) and therefore, do our best not to play into the prejudices of that group.

As I said before, have a bit of introspection and acknowledge that there's some things about you that you just can't change. For me, one way I can do that is to try to ask "how can I help", instead of getting antsy that I'm being lumped into a group for something I can't control. It's hard.

Tomayto Tomato
Potato Potayto
Same Difference

You just rephrased me in essence and did say what I just said.


Last edited by TheSyldat on 29 September 2018 at 12:42 pm UTC