Transhuman Design has removed the Linux version of BUTCHER due to issues in favour of Steam Play (updated)

I'm a buyer of Butcher, on Steam, and I'm not happy about the move. This move 'forces' me to play a game which I paid for the native Linux version as a Windows or Steam Play/Proton version. I probably wouldn't have bought the game, if I'd known this was going to be the outcome.

I feel that there are occasions when Linux gamers on other distributions/setups do experience different issues with games compared to me. Often I hear things like "RUST doesn't work for me" or "Dying Light doesn't work for me" - but they both work fine for *me*, and have done since day one. I suspect that this 'Butcher' game would have worked fine for me (like the person reporting that the GOG version is good for them) had *I* played it on Linux.

Meanwhile, I'm having issues with Steam Play. Again, due to all the different setups and distributions and graphics drivers, I find that some games are not working for me in Steam Play, but seem to work for others.

I think I'd prefer it if there was THIS option from the Butcher developer:

1) Steam Play / Proton is supported platform, and is the default (owing to time constraints and support difficulties).
2) The native Linux version is still available to play, maybe by going into game Properties and choosing a native version from the 'Beta' menu.

Hope this type of thing doesn't become commonplace! -> Dropping the native version.

Quoting: liamdaweI'm pretty curious to know what the actual issue is here. Is it Unity once again messing up in their older builds, is it a driver update that broke it? We know so little.

I don't know what is the real reason, but if I had to guess, I would say that Unity 5.6 is quite old (released in late 2016) and the state of the graphics drivers then, although much better than 10 years ago, was way inferior to what it is today. While on the other hand, the graphics drivers on Windows are pretty stable since the last 2 years.

So I would not be surprised if games still running under Unity 5.6 would start to see some issues on latest Linux distributions.

Hopefully people who bought the game for linux can get a refund. A wine script is just not as good as a native game.

I wish they would not pull the native version just because they can't make it work on someone's poorly maintained Ubuntu box stuck on some ancient trash version of libraries.

Who knows what they even tried? In this case I wish they'd have asked for help instead of just punting to Steam Play. I don't think that windows gamedevs are always particularly experienced with troubleshooting programs on Linux. I've had games that I had to run under strace to figure out why they wouldn't launch. If a build can be run at all: I will find a way. I don't think I'm unique in this regard either.

Sad news, but it also shows why steam play is such a big thing.

It's not as simple as steam play = good, regardless of what happens. But in this case it's a positive driving force.

"They pulled a native game off steam and replaced it with an emulator, how on earth is this a good thing?". Simply put, it means that we can further reduce friction to consider Linux for gaming releases. The ROI is bigger, since with simply saying " white-list this game for SP" you get the same result as with a sizeable time,effort and money put in.

As is common, the main code base is for Windows, the Linux version is closed-source and only one game developer is eyeballing it. The end result is buggy, laggy and outwardly no better than Wine. SDL versions are even worse: it's the same kind of indirection, simply less flexible and far less maintainable. Why do we insist that a compiled closed-source POSIX executable is better than an interpreted foreign one?

I hute to see us Linux gamers being treated as second-grade citizens, but this could have been far worse. What if they kept a buggy port, and made it impossible to use Proton? what if they just pulled it, because it was more trouble than its worth?

This is a Steam Play success story, and a small uidony for the 'nix gaming community.

Quoting: dvdHopefully people who bought the game for linux can get a refund. A wine script is just not as good as a native game.

In my experience, a wine script can be objectively better than a half-arsed port. Just take Doom 3, Return to castle Wolfenstein and a few older native games.

Quoting: Nevertheless"Worth noting this is only on Steam of course, the native Linux builds are still available from Humble Store, GOG and itch.io."
So it will be a problem for itch.io and GOG users at least. Therefore it's not a satisfactory solution. For me it could be acceptable it it were availlable on Steam only.

The best solution, is to make the game GPL, and let the community fix it. Another solution, is to intentionally pressure GOG to support Linux as first-class:

Spoiler, click me

you see, there still isn't a GOG galaxy for Linux.

This is actually an interesting situation in another way as well: in removing the native version and asking Valve to whitelist the game for Proton, they are asking them to take over the support for the game as well. I wonder what Valve thinks about that.

Quoting: Cheeseness

Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: CheesenessI was speaking specifically to the case of Event[0], but it likely applies here too. How accurate is the developer's assessment that the problems are driver related? As Liam highlights in the article, there's not really enough information here to know for sure.

Reading through the thread that Liam linked, it has the hallmarks of a known issue that can cause garbage values to be used for screen/window resolution. I haven't dug into the specifics of the problem for a while, but IIRC, it was either an X or a xrandr update that caused the problem to manifest, and it became redundant when Unity switched to SDL for windowing.

Don't ask me if he's right.. :) However, the result will be the same either way. The developer will not fix the problems, and I guess it will not be easy to prove him wrong with his assessment, even for someone who knows better like maybe you..
Now, if the dev chooses to leave the native version online, as it is, and if the customers get the option to choose versions, who will support them? The dev for the native version or Valve for Steam Play? I think it's possible Valve won't support a game that has a native version, and the dev clearly states it's broken, so he won't either. And maybe that is one good reason he pulled it of the store. Still, who supports GOG and itch.io users now?

A user in the thread has just mentioned they're able to run the demo after deleting their prefs file, which is in line with my suspicions, so it looks like the game was never "broken" per se, and there's a simple client-side workaround.

As for whose responsibility it is to support users, people using Proton are Valve's problem to deal with, people using Linux-specific versions are the developer's problem to support. That's what was laid down in the Steam Play update/Proton announcement post, and I think it's fair to demand that that be adhered to.

I see all kinds of problems. Maybe in this case the technical side is clear (to you), but this will not be the case every time, there might be even more problems with the same game, or it might really and completely break for other reasons at a later time. There will be customers who will demand on a working native version, because they refuse to use Proton or are unable to use a workaround to get the Proton driven Windows version running. Even when (or if) Valve decides to give users the choice which version they want to use, they might decide to not whitelist (and therefore support) games with a native version in place. I don't even think it were a good idea if they did, as I think it might lead to more neglected native versions.
I like the idea of one fully supported native version with a chance to choose the unsupported protonized version for those who know what their doing, or no native version at all, and a Proton version, fully supported by Valve instead.
Yes I know, this is not the perfect solution for this case, as there is already a native version on GOG and itch.io.

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: NeverthelessAs already said here, maybe one day we have unified gaming platform for all OSs. It could be based upon Win32 and Vulkan. Personally I have no problem with that. Still GOG and itch.io users won't like it, at least until those shops adopt a solution like Proton themselves.

What people who develop things outside of Steam? What if game doesn't "just work"? What about multiplayer? What about Proton specific bugs?

I like Proton a lot, but watching not only accept, but encourage this type of thing really burns me. I've seen people on reddit and talk about using Proton for games that developers had already planned native support and TELLING those devs to release with Proton.

Proton isn't a cancer. I genuinely believe that it's positive force for Linux. I've even given advice to another developer on how to get whitelisted. But the idea that you just can't wait or not holding individual devs to account for their actions(by not buying, by reviewing,or by refunding i.e. don't be abusive) is ludicrous.

I would never tell a developer to only develop for Proton, because there is not just Steam, but also other stores. without Proton in place (yet).
What I meant is: As much as I would like everyone to use Linux or some other open/free OS that might evolve, who knows, the future might lead to a unified gaming platform around vulkan.... etc..
It might not be ideal, but I could live far better with that, than with MS walled garden gaming...

Quoting: appetrosyanSDL versions are even worse: it's the same kind of indirection, simply less flexible and far less maintainable. Why do we insist that a compiled closed-source POSIX executable is better than an interpreted foreign one?

The SDL dig doesn't make sense, but of course a closed source native build is better than a closed source "interpreted" one, if everything else is equal. ("Interpreted" in quotes because Wine isn't really an interpreter.)

A bad native Linux port VS a good wrap job is a bit different, but this doesn't mean the wrapper is the better technical solution. Using one is simpler than writing a truly portable game though, especially if you don't really know your target platform, and it might work just fine. Or it might not.

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Whitewolfe80Mmm not surprised Steam play is an easy out

Not fixing a broken linux build is also an easy out.

Say if a developer REALLY wanted an easy out, and steam play wasn't a thing.. They could just as easily just not update a native linux build if they wanted out, don't ya think?

Edit: just tested my GOG version of Butcher, works just fine on a fully up to date linux mint install lol

Was the game really that broken for people? does seem like a stupid move

Whats easier and cheaper than not doing anything ?

Quoting: NeverthelessI see all kinds of problems. Maybe in this case the technical side is clear (to you), but this will not be the case every time, there might be even more problems with the same game, or it might really and completely break for other reasons at a later time.

Is that relevant? The same can be said for Proton itself, or any piece of software that you can't compile and fix yourself.

I have trouble understanding how "there might be other problems that we're not aware of that might occur in the future" could be a justification for removing a Linux-specific version of a game, especially if that Linux-specific build works for someone.

Quoting: Cheeseness

Quoting: NeverthelessI see all kinds of problems. Maybe in this case the technical side is clear (to you), but this will not be the case every time, there might be even more problems with the same game, or it might really and completely break for other reasons at a later time.

Is that relevant? The same can be said for Proton itself, or any piece of software that you can't compile and fix yourself.

I have trouble understanding how "there might be other problems that we're not aware of that might occur in the future" could be a justification for removing a Linux-specific version of a game, especially if that Linux-specific build works for someone.

The developer just told us that he will not support the Linux version anymore.
1. If he lets the game on the store, people will want support for it.
2. You say it's easy to fix clientside, but there may be even more problems, or more problems to come, and still he won't or can't support the version.
I think it's a bad idea to leave a version online for just good luck. It might waste the time for a lot of people trying to make it run but fail. Then people try to make it run with Proton, and they might not get support for it from Valve (if needed), because the useless native Linux version is still online.

Edit: Maybe he could leave it online as a beta option. For enthusiasts :D


Last edited by Nevertheless on 21 September 2018 at 9:17 am UTC

This decision by the developer confuses me a lot.

How many Linux versions of the game have they sold? Judging by the comments here they have sold at least one. What if this was a game sold for Xbox and Playstation but it turns out the Xbox version doesn't work would it then be acceptable if the developer just dropped support for the Xbox version? I assume the developer legally have to make sure that the product they sold actually works otherwise offer refunds?

I would equivalent this with a car manufacturer finding a manufacturing error in one of their cars and issuing a full recall of all sold units meaning a full refund for everyone who bought it.

Since they they have asked Valve to whitelist the game using Proton I assume they've spent hours and hours and hours testing the game with Proton and knows the game works flawlessly with it? Right? Right? For some reason I highly doubt it mostly because the developer themselves say "and hopefully enjoy your game working on Linux again" which means they don't even know if it works with Proton.

Sigh.

I hope Valve gives them a proper response for asking them to whitelist a game they don't even now works with Proton.

I'm also guessing since the sole programmer is no longer available any bugs found in the Windows version due to them using an old version of Unity for any other reason will also go unfixed. One the one hand I guess you can't expect developers to update games after release. What you see is what you get. But what if you find a game breaking bug? I really think you should be able to expect the developer to fix problems preventing you from playing the game from start to finish.

In the end we weren't the ones deciding what platforms to release the game on, the developers did. If they now have found that the version of Unity they are using has a lot of issues on Linux and therefore decided to stop selling the game on Linux shouldn't they have found this when performing their own testing before releasing the game? To me it just seams like the developer clicked "export for Linux" without doing any sort of testing and hoped for the best. I appreciate they trying to bring their game to Linux but I do think we should be able to expect a little bit more from developers.

Quoting: 3qET7rL9BdThis decision by the developer confuses me a lot.

How many Linux versions of the game have they sold? Judging by the comments here they have sold at least one. What if this was a game sold for Xbox and Playstation but it turns out the Xbox version doesn't work would it then be acceptable if the developer just dropped support for the Xbox version? I assume the developer legally have to make sure that the product they sold actually works otherwise offer refunds?

I would equivalent this with a car manufacturer finding a manufacturing error in one of their cars and issuing a full recall of all sold units meaning a full refund for everyone who bought it.

Since they they have asked Valve to whitelist the game using Proton I assume they've spent hours and hours and hours testing the game with Proton and knows the game works flawlessly with it? Right? Right? For some reason I highly doubt it mostly because the developer themselves say "and hopefully enjoy your game working on Linux again" which means they don't even know if it works with Proton.

Sigh.

I hope Valve gives them a proper response for asking them to whitelist a game they don't even now works with Proton.

I'm also guessing since the sole programmer is no longer available any bugs found in the Windows version due to them using an old version of Unity for any other reason will also go unfixed. One the one hand I guess you can't expect developers to update games after release. What you see is what you get. But what if you find a game breaking bug? I really think you should be able to expect the developer to fix problems preventing you from playing the game from start to finish.

In the end we weren't the ones deciding what platforms to release the game on, the developers did. If they now have found that the version of Unity they are using has a lot of issues on Linux and therefore decided to stop selling the game on Linux shouldn't they have found this when performing their own testing before releasing the game? To me it just seams like the developer clicked "export for Linux" without doing any sort of testing and hoped for the best. I appreciate they trying to bring their game to Linux but I do think we should be able to expect a little bit more from developers.

I think a withdraw and a refund would be the cleanest solution. On Steam and on other stores. Those who wish to keep the game can do so. New customers can decide if they want to purchase it on Steam Play. But somehow I guess the dev won't like the idea...

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: NeverthelessAs already said here, maybe one day we have unified gaming platform for all OSs. It could be based upon Win32 and Vulkan. Personally I have no problem with that. Still GOG and itch.io users won't like it, at least until those shops adopt a solution like Proton themselves.

What people who develop things outside of Steam? What if game doesn't "just work"? What about multiplayer? What about Proton specific bugs?

I like Proton a lot, but watching not only accept, but encourage this type of thing really burns me. I've seen people on reddit and talk about using Proton for games that developers had already planned native support and TELLING those devs to release with Proton.

Proton isn't a cancer. I genuinely believe that it's positive force for Linux. I've even given advice to another developer on how to get whitelisted. But the idea that you just can't wait or not holding individual devs to account for their actions(by not buying, by reviewing,or by refunding i.e. don't be abusive) is ludicrous.

I would never tell a developer to only develop for Proton, because there is not just Steam, but also other stores. without Proton in place (yet).
What I meant is: As much as I would like everyone to use Linux or some other open/free OS that might evolve, who knows, the future might lead to a unified gaming platform around vulkan.... etc..
It might not be ideal, but I could live far better with that, than with MS walled garden gaming...

Sorry I snapped at on you. I've been letting my personal frustration with the community get me angry and for that apologize.

I've been working on my projects for a few years, but sometimes it feels like native development is becoming a losing battle. I don't think it's true, but sometimes emotions override reason. And no, it's not because of Proton, but rather because it seems like a lot great projects just get forgotten.

Anyway, cheers!

No offense taken! Just wanted to make clear.
It probably feels so, because it is so.. A few percent of the projects get 90% attention. If that's because of marketing hype, because of the big number of projects, or both I don't know..

Why is it so important how the game is packaged and compiled? It should perform, should be stable and the developer/publisher should know that the money came from Linux. I'm fine if these three conditions are given.

(That said: I use Steam, but I get the issue in this specific case if one prefers another store.)

Quoting: 3qET7rL9BdThis decision by the developer confuses me a lot.

How many Linux versions of the game have they sold? Judging by the comments here they have sold at least one. What if this was a game sold for Xbox and Playstation but it turns out the Xbox version doesn't work would it then be acceptable if the developer just dropped support for the Xbox version? I assume the developer legally have to make sure that the product they sold actually works otherwise offer refunds?

I would equivalent this with a car manufacturer finding a manufacturing error in one of their cars and issuing a full recall of all sold units meaning a full refund for everyone who bought it.

Since they they have asked Valve to whitelist the game using Proton I assume they've spent hours and hours and hours testing the game with Proton and knows the game works flawlessly with it? Right? Right? For some reason I highly doubt it mostly because the developer themselves say "and hopefully enjoy your game working on Linux again" which means they don't even know if it works with Proton.

Sigh.

I hope Valve gives them a proper response for asking them to whitelist a game they don't even now works with Proton.

I'm also guessing since the sole programmer is no longer available any bugs found in the Windows version due to them using an old version of Unity for any other reason will also go unfixed. One the one hand I guess you can't expect developers to update games after release. What you see is what you get. But what if you find a game breaking bug? I really think you should be able to expect the developer to fix problems preventing you from playing the game from start to finish.

In the end we weren't the ones deciding what platforms to release the game on, the developers did. If they now have found that the version of Unity they are using has a lot of issues on Linux and therefore decided to stop selling the game on Linux shouldn't they have found this when performing their own testing before releasing the game? To me it just seams like the developer clicked "export for Linux" without doing any sort of testing and hoped for the best. I appreciate they trying to bring their game to Linux but I do think we should be able to expect a little bit more from developers.

You can't compare with the console market that easily. Before releasing on console you have to be approved by the manufacturer, and also the hardware doesn't change: the Xbox will stay the same XBox (or the manufacturer will provide retro-compatible updates, e.g. PS4 and PS4 Pro, Xbox One and Xbox One S).

And for the comparison with cars, well, a buggy game doesn't kill people.

On the other hand, Linux changed a lot in the recent years in becoming a more mature gaming platform. But the differences between 3 years ago and now are still huge (which is great!), but it doesn't help when you try to support this platform. In that matter, Windows is a way more stable platform (less than a console, but more than Linux) -- To be clear: I don't mean that Windows crashes less than Linux, but that a binary on Windows will require less work to continue working than a binary on Linux, because everything is more mature for the gaming scene there.

I don't think Transhuman Design would have decided to make a fix if Steam Play wasn't available. They would simply have stopped supporting Linux, like several devs have done before in the same situation.

The ROI to support Linux at the moment is simply not big enough. Steam Play will help gather more Linux gamers, which will help to create momentum, which will help to see Linux as a more and more legitimate gaming platform.

Quoting: jensWhy is it so important how the game is packaged and compiled? It should perform, should be stable and the developer/publisher should know that the money came from Linux. I'm fine if these three conditions are given.

That's how I feel about a lot of this stuff, to the end user (the actual gamer) it shouldn't matter, everything behind the scenes should be invisible to you.

Part of the problem though is what I mentioned, Steam Play titles don't currently show as a Linux game on the store + the problems then other stores have. We don't want to end up having Steam lock-in. As much as I value what Valve does, the last thing I want is them getting everything and other stores getting nothing.

Edit: I said it should matter, I meant it shouldn't.


Last edited by Liam Dawe on 21 September 2018 at 2:52 pm UTC