Transhuman Design has removed the Linux version of BUTCHER due to issues in favour of Steam Play (updated)

Quoting: appetrosyanSDL versions are even worse: it's the same kind of indirection, simply less flexible and far less maintainable. Why do we insist that a compiled closed-source POSIX executable is better than an interpreted foreign one?

The SDL dig doesn't make sense, but of course a closed source native build is better than a closed source "interpreted" one, if everything else is equal. ("Interpreted" in quotes because Wine isn't really an interpreter.)

A bad native Linux port VS a good wrap job is a bit different, but this doesn't mean the wrapper is the better technical solution. Using one is simpler than writing a truly portable game though, especially if you don't really know your target platform, and it might work just fine. Or it might not.

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Whitewolfe80Mmm not surprised Steam play is an easy out

Not fixing a broken linux build is also an easy out.

Say if a developer REALLY wanted an easy out, and steam play wasn't a thing.. They could just as easily just not update a native linux build if they wanted out, don't ya think?

Edit: just tested my GOG version of Butcher, works just fine on a fully up to date linux mint install lol

Was the game really that broken for people? does seem like a stupid move

Whats easier and cheaper than not doing anything ?

Quoting: NeverthelessI see all kinds of problems. Maybe in this case the technical side is clear (to you), but this will not be the case every time, there might be even more problems with the same game, or it might really and completely break for other reasons at a later time.

Is that relevant? The same can be said for Proton itself, or any piece of software that you can't compile and fix yourself.

I have trouble understanding how "there might be other problems that we're not aware of that might occur in the future" could be a justification for removing a Linux-specific version of a game, especially if that Linux-specific build works for someone.

Quoting: Cheeseness

Quoting: NeverthelessI see all kinds of problems. Maybe in this case the technical side is clear (to you), but this will not be the case every time, there might be even more problems with the same game, or it might really and completely break for other reasons at a later time.

Is that relevant? The same can be said for Proton itself, or any piece of software that you can't compile and fix yourself.

I have trouble understanding how "there might be other problems that we're not aware of that might occur in the future" could be a justification for removing a Linux-specific version of a game, especially if that Linux-specific build works for someone.

The developer just told us that he will not support the Linux version anymore.
1. If he lets the game on the store, people will want support for it.
2. You say it's easy to fix clientside, but there may be even more problems, or more problems to come, and still he won't or can't support the version.
I think it's a bad idea to leave a version online for just good luck. It might waste the time for a lot of people trying to make it run but fail. Then people try to make it run with Proton, and they might not get support for it from Valve (if needed), because the useless native Linux version is still online.

Edit: Maybe he could leave it online as a beta option. For enthusiasts :D


Last edited by Nevertheless on 21 September 2018 at 9:17 am UTC

This decision by the developer confuses me a lot.

How many Linux versions of the game have they sold? Judging by the comments here they have sold at least one. What if this was a game sold for Xbox and Playstation but it turns out the Xbox version doesn't work would it then be acceptable if the developer just dropped support for the Xbox version? I assume the developer legally have to make sure that the product they sold actually works otherwise offer refunds?

I would equivalent this with a car manufacturer finding a manufacturing error in one of their cars and issuing a full recall of all sold units meaning a full refund for everyone who bought it.

Since they they have asked Valve to whitelist the game using Proton I assume they've spent hours and hours and hours testing the game with Proton and knows the game works flawlessly with it? Right? Right? For some reason I highly doubt it mostly because the developer themselves say "and hopefully enjoy your game working on Linux again" which means they don't even know if it works with Proton.

Sigh.

I hope Valve gives them a proper response for asking them to whitelist a game they don't even now works with Proton.

I'm also guessing since the sole programmer is no longer available any bugs found in the Windows version due to them using an old version of Unity for any other reason will also go unfixed. One the one hand I guess you can't expect developers to update games after release. What you see is what you get. But what if you find a game breaking bug? I really think you should be able to expect the developer to fix problems preventing you from playing the game from start to finish.

In the end we weren't the ones deciding what platforms to release the game on, the developers did. If they now have found that the version of Unity they are using has a lot of issues on Linux and therefore decided to stop selling the game on Linux shouldn't they have found this when performing their own testing before releasing the game? To me it just seams like the developer clicked "export for Linux" without doing any sort of testing and hoped for the best. I appreciate they trying to bring their game to Linux but I do think we should be able to expect a little bit more from developers.

Quoting: 3qET7rL9BdThis decision by the developer confuses me a lot.

How many Linux versions of the game have they sold? Judging by the comments here they have sold at least one. What if this was a game sold for Xbox and Playstation but it turns out the Xbox version doesn't work would it then be acceptable if the developer just dropped support for the Xbox version? I assume the developer legally have to make sure that the product they sold actually works otherwise offer refunds?

I would equivalent this with a car manufacturer finding a manufacturing error in one of their cars and issuing a full recall of all sold units meaning a full refund for everyone who bought it.

Since they they have asked Valve to whitelist the game using Proton I assume they've spent hours and hours and hours testing the game with Proton and knows the game works flawlessly with it? Right? Right? For some reason I highly doubt it mostly because the developer themselves say "and hopefully enjoy your game working on Linux again" which means they don't even know if it works with Proton.

Sigh.

I hope Valve gives them a proper response for asking them to whitelist a game they don't even now works with Proton.

I'm also guessing since the sole programmer is no longer available any bugs found in the Windows version due to them using an old version of Unity for any other reason will also go unfixed. One the one hand I guess you can't expect developers to update games after release. What you see is what you get. But what if you find a game breaking bug? I really think you should be able to expect the developer to fix problems preventing you from playing the game from start to finish.

In the end we weren't the ones deciding what platforms to release the game on, the developers did. If they now have found that the version of Unity they are using has a lot of issues on Linux and therefore decided to stop selling the game on Linux shouldn't they have found this when performing their own testing before releasing the game? To me it just seams like the developer clicked "export for Linux" without doing any sort of testing and hoped for the best. I appreciate they trying to bring their game to Linux but I do think we should be able to expect a little bit more from developers.

I think a withdraw and a refund would be the cleanest solution. On Steam and on other stores. Those who wish to keep the game can do so. New customers can decide if they want to purchase it on Steam Play. But somehow I guess the dev won't like the idea...

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: NeverthelessAs already said here, maybe one day we have unified gaming platform for all OSs. It could be based upon Win32 and Vulkan. Personally I have no problem with that. Still GOG and itch.io users won't like it, at least until those shops adopt a solution like Proton themselves.

What people who develop things outside of Steam? What if game doesn't "just work"? What about multiplayer? What about Proton specific bugs?

I like Proton a lot, but watching not only accept, but encourage this type of thing really burns me. I've seen people on reddit and talk about using Proton for games that developers had already planned native support and TELLING those devs to release with Proton.

Proton isn't a cancer. I genuinely believe that it's positive force for Linux. I've even given advice to another developer on how to get whitelisted. But the idea that you just can't wait or not holding individual devs to account for their actions(by not buying, by reviewing,or by refunding i.e. don't be abusive) is ludicrous.

I would never tell a developer to only develop for Proton, because there is not just Steam, but also other stores. without Proton in place (yet).
What I meant is: As much as I would like everyone to use Linux or some other open/free OS that might evolve, who knows, the future might lead to a unified gaming platform around vulkan.... etc..
It might not be ideal, but I could live far better with that, than with MS walled garden gaming...

Sorry I snapped at on you. I've been letting my personal frustration with the community get me angry and for that apologize.

I've been working on my projects for a few years, but sometimes it feels like native development is becoming a losing battle. I don't think it's true, but sometimes emotions override reason. And no, it's not because of Proton, but rather because it seems like a lot great projects just get forgotten.

Anyway, cheers!

No offense taken! Just wanted to make clear.
It probably feels so, because it is so.. A few percent of the projects get 90% attention. If that's because of marketing hype, because of the big number of projects, or both I don't know..

Why is it so important how the game is packaged and compiled? It should perform, should be stable and the developer/publisher should know that the money came from Linux. I'm fine if these three conditions are given.

(That said: I use Steam, but I get the issue in this specific case if one prefers another store.)

Quoting: 3qET7rL9BdThis decision by the developer confuses me a lot.

How many Linux versions of the game have they sold? Judging by the comments here they have sold at least one. What if this was a game sold for Xbox and Playstation but it turns out the Xbox version doesn't work would it then be acceptable if the developer just dropped support for the Xbox version? I assume the developer legally have to make sure that the product they sold actually works otherwise offer refunds?

I would equivalent this with a car manufacturer finding a manufacturing error in one of their cars and issuing a full recall of all sold units meaning a full refund for everyone who bought it.

Since they they have asked Valve to whitelist the game using Proton I assume they've spent hours and hours and hours testing the game with Proton and knows the game works flawlessly with it? Right? Right? For some reason I highly doubt it mostly because the developer themselves say "and hopefully enjoy your game working on Linux again" which means they don't even know if it works with Proton.

Sigh.

I hope Valve gives them a proper response for asking them to whitelist a game they don't even now works with Proton.

I'm also guessing since the sole programmer is no longer available any bugs found in the Windows version due to them using an old version of Unity for any other reason will also go unfixed. One the one hand I guess you can't expect developers to update games after release. What you see is what you get. But what if you find a game breaking bug? I really think you should be able to expect the developer to fix problems preventing you from playing the game from start to finish.

In the end we weren't the ones deciding what platforms to release the game on, the developers did. If they now have found that the version of Unity they are using has a lot of issues on Linux and therefore decided to stop selling the game on Linux shouldn't they have found this when performing their own testing before releasing the game? To me it just seams like the developer clicked "export for Linux" without doing any sort of testing and hoped for the best. I appreciate they trying to bring their game to Linux but I do think we should be able to expect a little bit more from developers.

You can't compare with the console market that easily. Before releasing on console you have to be approved by the manufacturer, and also the hardware doesn't change: the Xbox will stay the same XBox (or the manufacturer will provide retro-compatible updates, e.g. PS4 and PS4 Pro, Xbox One and Xbox One S).

And for the comparison with cars, well, a buggy game doesn't kill people.

On the other hand, Linux changed a lot in the recent years in becoming a more mature gaming platform. But the differences between 3 years ago and now are still huge (which is great!), but it doesn't help when you try to support this platform. In that matter, Windows is a way more stable platform (less than a console, but more than Linux) -- To be clear: I don't mean that Windows crashes less than Linux, but that a binary on Windows will require less work to continue working than a binary on Linux, because everything is more mature for the gaming scene there.

I don't think Transhuman Design would have decided to make a fix if Steam Play wasn't available. They would simply have stopped supporting Linux, like several devs have done before in the same situation.

The ROI to support Linux at the moment is simply not big enough. Steam Play will help gather more Linux gamers, which will help to create momentum, which will help to see Linux as a more and more legitimate gaming platform.

Quoting: jensWhy is it so important how the game is packaged and compiled? It should perform, should be stable and the developer/publisher should know that the money came from Linux. I'm fine if these three conditions are given.

That's how I feel about a lot of this stuff, to the end user (the actual gamer) it shouldn't matter, everything behind the scenes should be invisible to you.

Part of the problem though is what I mentioned, Steam Play titles don't currently show as a Linux game on the store + the problems then other stores have. We don't want to end up having Steam lock-in. As much as I value what Valve does, the last thing I want is them getting everything and other stores getting nothing.

Edit: I said it should matter, I meant it shouldn't.


Last edited by Liam Dawe on 21 September 2018 at 2:52 pm UTC