Thanks to a tip in our Discord, we've found out today that Valve have been fined 147 thousand euros in France. Probably a drop in the ocean compared to Valve's revenue, but enough to turn their heads and pay attention.
For anyone visiting the Steam store in France, you will likely see this appear at the top of the store (thanks Syldat):
This translates (thanks Google) loosely to:
Pursuant to Article L. 522-1 of the French Consumer Code, the National Investigation Service of the DGCCRF decided to impose administrative penalties on the company VALVE CORPORATION totalling € 147,000. for breach of the following provisions of the Consumer Code: Articles L. 221-5 (conclusion of a contract for the supply of digital content without communication of prior information compliant), L. 221 -28 1 3 ° (absence of a collection of the express agreement of the consumer prior to the execution of the supply of the digital content and absence of collection of the express waiver to his right of retraction), L. 22 1 -18 (non-respect of the withdrawal period) and L. 221 - 1 3 (failure to deliver a compliant contract).
I'm certainly no expert on this, but it appears to be an issue with the refund policy on Steam. It's likely that Valve aren't stating the restrictions on refunds clearly enough when you actually make a purchase. Since they currently impose restrictions of you not owning it for more than two weeks or having played more than two hours. It is detailed quite clearly in Valve's actual terms and conditions though, which links directly links to this page.
Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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18 comments
Huh...so are google, M$, Sony and Nintendo gonna get a slap on the wrist too? oh right, they dont even give the benefit of refund therefore they don't have to get fined due to giving a worse service.Yeah Nintendo are terrible. Tried to get a single refund from them for a truly crap game on Switch - completely denied.
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Duke Takeshi Sep 18, 2018
I'm certainly no expert on this, but it appears to be an issue with the refund policy on Steam.
Could also have something to do with scallops.
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Huh...so are google, M$, Sony and Nintendo gonna get a slap on the wrist too? oh right, they dont even give the benefit of refund therefore they don't have to get fined due to giving a worse service.
Well, today I was reading about refund policies for Windows OEM and end up reading Microsoft EULA:
By accepting this agreement or using the software, you agree to all of these terms, and consent to the transmission of certain information during activation and during your use of the software as per the privacy statement described in Section 3. If you do not accept and comply with these terms, you may not use the software or its features. You may contact the device manufacturer or installer, or your retailer if you purchased the software directly, to determine its return policy and return the software or device for a refund or credit under that policy. You must comply with that policy, which might require you to return the software with the entire device on which the software is installed for a refund or credit, if any.
So, if you're lucky enough, you can actually get a Microsoft refund for an OEM key you never used on your computer. The ugly part is that it could also mean that the manufacturer could decide to ask you to return the whole computer. Maybe in first world countries you can refund the key... would be nice to know if this refund policy works in the EU.
Last edited by x_wing on 18 September 2018 at 5:38 pm UTC
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Well, today I was reading about refund policies for Windows OEM and end up reading Microsoft EULA:
By accepting this agreement or using the software, you agree to all of these terms, and consent to the transmission of certain information during activation and during your use of the software as per the privacy statement described in Section 3. If you do not accept and comply with these terms, you may not use the software or its features. You may contact the device manufacturer or installer, or your retailer if you purchased the software directly, to determine its return policy and return the software or device for a refund or credit under that policy. You must comply with that policy, which might require you to return the software with the entire device on which the software is installed for a refund or credit, if any.
So, if you're lucky enough, you can actually get a Microsoft refund for an OEM key you never used on your computer. The ugly part is that it could also mean that the manufacturer could decide to ask you to return the whole computer. Maybe in first world countries you can refund the key... would be nice to know if this refund policy works in the EU.
The EU law did at one point state that you can't be required to accept all parts of a package deal and can return parts of it, provided that you can't obtain a part of the the package otherwise. There was a case of a french woman who managed to refund her OEM license, and soon after Dell started the Developer edition, to show that you can buy their laptops(at least the non-gaming ones) without a Windows license.
To put that into human words: if you can't buy the same product without Windows, you might be able to get it refunded.
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I'm wondering about the timing. Assuming this is really happening, Valve just went public with their integration of Proton+DXVK into Steam Play, and now coming from one of the main countries in the EU responsible for the recent link tax copyright heavy-handedness is beginning an attack against Valve. Now this may be French bureaucrats being French bureaucrats, or Microsoft might have pulled some levers behind the scenes to begin the attack against Valve as Valve has clearly thrown a monkey in the wrench with regards to Microsoft's obvious moves towards locking down Windows similarly to Apple and Google.
There is no doubt in my mind that Microsoft knew that Steam Play integration was coming before Valve announced it, which means they began their response before it was made public. Business is war, and while Valve has their sights set at being the hub for video games on the net, Microsoft has dreams of a closed ecosystem where they get a payout every time anybody does anything with a computer. The two goals are not compatible, and Microsoft has deeper pockets and multiple decades worth of political connections.
There is no doubt in my mind that Microsoft knew that Steam Play integration was coming before Valve announced it, which means they began their response before it was made public. Business is war, and while Valve has their sights set at being the hub for video games on the net, Microsoft has dreams of a closed ecosystem where they get a payout every time anybody does anything with a computer. The two goals are not compatible, and Microsoft has deeper pockets and multiple decades worth of political connections.
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I'm wondering about the timing.Justice is slow; this is probably about things that happened years ago.
I think stan is right here. Steam has a lot of issues that are considered against consumer rights in french laws (such as the fact that you can be banned without any real explanation and thus lose access to all of your games that you are not really the owner of when you buy them on steam). Because of such issues, UFC, one of the biggest french consumer rights association had Valve in their radar since 2015 and filed a lawsuit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Corporation#UFC_Que_Choisir_v._Valve_Corporation.
I highly doubt this is a machiavellian conspiracy against Valve's SteamPlay.
Last edited by Babouchot on 18 September 2018 at 7:32 pm UTC
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[...] So, if you're lucky enough, you can actually get a Microsoft refund for an OEM key you never used on your computer. [...] would be nice to know if this refund policy works in the EU.
It does, I opted out of Windows activation on every single laptop I ever bought for my family, 7 of them IIRC over last 2 years. It's anything between 70 to 100 USD (250 to 350 PLN) depending on Windows version.
Last edited by cprn on 18 September 2018 at 7:28 pm UTC
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I think this penalty is pre-refund policy. I don't know French law but I know of similar situation where a local content provider got 12 months to fix high severity issues with their delivery platform after which they had to face another audit. Ended up paying about 6% of the original penalty and got another 12 months to fix remaining minor issues (the date's almost due and they still didn't fix them BTW).
Last edited by cprn on 18 September 2018 at 7:41 pm UTC
Last edited by cprn on 18 September 2018 at 7:41 pm UTC
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So, basically, in the EU you can buy the notebook you want without having to worry about getting the version that comes without Windows (if available). Wish my country worked that way...Well, today I was reading about refund policies for Windows OEM and end up reading Microsoft EULA:
The EU law did at one point state that you can't be required to accept all parts of a package deal and can return parts of it, provided that you can't obtain a part of the the package otherwise. There was a case of a french woman who managed to refund her OEM license, and soon after Dell started the Developer edition, to show that you can buy their laptops(at least the non-gaming ones) without a Windows license.
To put that into human words: if you can't buy the same product without Windows, you might be able to get it refunded.
Last edited by x_wing on 18 September 2018 at 8:27 pm UTC
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To put that into human words: if you can't buy the same product without Windows, you might be able to get it refunded.
Yeah, like cpm said, that works quite well, although you sometimes have to fight quite hard for this. Licenses are typically less expensive nowadays (especially if you consider windows *something* home. That's usually between 20 to 50 EUR, depending on the manufacturer (in the past, some went as high as € 150).
The exact amount and procedure depends on the manufacturer, though. And more and more are selling computers without OS (yay!).
Last edited by MayeulC on 18 September 2018 at 8:37 pm UTC
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Let's all buy one new game from steam tonight as a fu to this.
Compared to most other companies, Valve is being the nicest.
Compared to most other companies, Valve is being the nicest.
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lucifertdark Sep 18, 2018
I wonder how much money they stand to lose if they decide to block French users from the system?
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Meh, whatever. I doubt this is about anything much. 147,000 euros is plenty to me, but to Valve it's a rounding error on a rounding error on a rounding error. If the French were really mad at them it'd be in the multi-digits of millions.
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Always asked the retailer quoting applicable local consumer protection laws. You need to be a consumer (not a business) and you need OEM software to be a separate position on your laptop invoice. Retailer can't ask for the device back unless they sell the same hardware without OS as well. Retailers just send licenses from refunds back to their distributors.It does, I opted out of Windows activation on every single laptop I ever bought for my family, 7 of them IIRC over last 2 years. It's anything between 70 to 100 USD (250 to 350 PLN) depending on Windows version.Wow, that’s great. Did you ask the laptop manufacturer for the refund? Which brand was it?
Last edited by cprn on 18 September 2018 at 10:01 pm UTC
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It's nice to live in country that have strong and ENFORCEABLE consumer protections. If in Malaysia, asking to opt out Windows at any PC shops will be answered by "Windows included in warranty, cannot remove." Even pre-build desktop PC built by PC shops also includes Windows in their warranty.Always asked the retailer quoting applicable local consumer protection laws. You need to be a consumer (not a business) and you need OEM software to be a separate position on your laptop invoice. Retailer can't ask for the device back unless they sell the same hardware without OS as well. Retailers just send licenses from refunds back to their distributors.It does, I opted out of Windows activation on every single laptop I ever bought for my family, 7 of them IIRC over last 2 years. It's anything between 70 to 100 USD (250 to 350 PLN) depending on Windows version.Wow, that’s great. Did you ask the laptop manufacturer for the refund? Which brand was it?
It's hard to opt out Windows here, unless if you're bought a 2nd hand Desktop/Laptop PC (as most Windows installed on used PC are pirated :P).
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Mountain Man Sep 19, 2018
147,000 Euros, huh? Gabe can pay that from the change he digs out of his sofa on a weekly basis.
4 Likes, Who?
It's nice to live in country that have strong and ENFORCEABLE consumer protections. If in Malaysia, asking to opt out Windows at any PC shops will be answered by "Windows included in warranty, cannot remove." Even pre-build desktop PC built by PC shops also includes Windows in their warranty.Always asked the retailer quoting applicable local consumer protection laws. You need to be a consumer (not a business) and you need OEM software to be a separate position on your laptop invoice. Retailer can't ask for the device back unless they sell the same hardware without OS as well. Retailers just send licenses from refunds back to their distributors.It does, I opted out of Windows activation on every single laptop I ever bought for my family, 7 of them IIRC over last 2 years. It's anything between 70 to 100 USD (250 to 350 PLN) depending on Windows version.Wow, that’s great. Did you ask the laptop manufacturer for the refund? Which brand was it?
It's hard to opt out Windows here, unless if you're bought a 2nd hand Desktop/Laptop PC (as most Windows installed on used PC are pirated :P).
Don't Lenovo and Dell sell their laptops without Windows there? Articles don't seem to change if I switch the region to Malaysia:
https://www.lenovo.com/my/en/faqs/pc-life-faqs/what-is-Linux/
https://www.dell.com/learn/my/en/mydhs1/campaigns/dell-ubuntu-my
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Don't Lenovo and Dell sell their laptops without Windows there? Articles don't seem to change if I switch the region to Malaysia:Yes, AFAIK only HP and Dell selling Linux PCs (mostly Ubuntu, some Dells comes with SUSE), but only on selected dealers/retailers, not available their online store. Not sure about Lenovo.
https://www.lenovo.com/my/en/faqs/pc-life-faqs/what-is-Linux/
https://www.dell.com/learn/my/en/mydhs1/campaigns/dell-ubuntu-my
Also, before Windows 10 launched, some PC models may comes with FreeDOS or no-OS at all. But, after Windows 10, most new PCs comes with pre-bundled Windows 10 or Chrome OS. Only a few such as Acer, Lenovo and Asus still offers no-OS PCs, but again only sell on selected dealers/retailers, not available their online store.
Few years ago, I'd asked the seller why this happens. The reason is MS sells Windows 10 to retailers insanely low price, much cheaper than cracking Windows. So pirating Windows no longer necessary.
That's why I'm loathe Win 10 and afraid MS may locking down S-Mode and MS store mandatory (aka walled garden).
p/s: Here are some popular brands' online store links.
Dell
Lenovo
HP
Acer
Asus
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