Embrace, extend, and protect? Microsoft joins the Open Invention Network to 'protect Linux and open source'

https://twitter.com/natfriedman/status/1050080717562990592

We did not exclude any patents from our OIN commitment to license our portfolio to the Linux System. We signed the standard OIN License Agreement, and didn’t negotiate any exclusions. We actually clicked through the OIN agreement like any other licensee!

Man if Windows becomes a Linux distro it's going to become tricky telling people they should switch to Linux.

My only concern would be that they start saying: "Linux was difficult, but Microsoft made it easy".

I'm already cringing

https://twitter.com/natfriedman/status/1050080717562990592

We did not exclude any patents from our OIN commitment to license our portfolio to the Linux System. We signed the standard OIN License Agreement, and didn’t negotiate any exclusions. We actually clicked through the OIN agreement like any other licensee!

They have a lot of explications, but not excuse for for not funding GOL.


Last edited by dude on 10 October 2018 at 10:43 pm UTC

I expect them to turn Windows into a Linux distro + proprietary libraries/API/DE at some point. It will be cheaper for them to maintain, will be able to enter most markets Windows can't enter/dominate now, like mobiles/servers, and will still allow them to be top dog, assuming they create a good and polished Linux based desktop OS and make linux-compatible versions of their stuff like Office...

Man if Windows becomes a Linux distro it's going to become tricky telling people they should switch to Linux.

Tricky but in some ways easier. I mean, if you're going to be running Linux anyway, why not use the real thing? If you're going to be using Linux anyway, why not one without spyware, one that doesn't lock you down, one that isn't trying to turn you into an integrated sales bundle, one that doesn't constantly give you a hard time for not making its browser your main one, et cetera et cetera et cetera?
Instead of it being a matter of Windows (familiar, "reliable" in a certain emotional sense, runs the software you use where other OSes maybe don't) vs. Linux (strange, different, might not run your software, might have device driver problems)--suddenly Windows would be just another Linux distribution, the one sold by a bunch of corporate greedheads who can't resist screwing with you.

No: http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2018/10/10/microsoft-oin-exfat.html

Most importantly, the non-aggression pact only applies to the upstream versions of software, including Linux itself. [...] While we at Conservancy were successful in getting the code that implements exfat for Linux released under GPL (by Samsung), that code has not been upstreamed into Linux. So, Microsoft has not included any patents they might hold on exfat into the patent non-aggression pact.

Heh, so here we go. MS is for patent disarmament, but not really.


Last edited by Shmerl on 10 October 2018 at 11:35 pm UTC

maybe microsoft knows, that the desktop market is shrinking. mobilphones are the future and ms has no chance against android and apple. not tomorrow of course, but can you imagine what phones can do in 10 years? 10yrs agao we played snakes and now fortnite. in 10yrs we may have a complete office PC on our phones and tablets
even we gamers are a very small market compared to consoles. PS4 has way more sellings than pc games. so who needs a desktop OS in 10yrs?

cloud is the future. maybe cloudgaming and servers have linux. all you need is a tablet and a bluetooth gamepad to play cyberpunk... or a switch and you can play everywhere
even smart tvs could handle streaming. you dont even need a console anymore


Last edited by mylka on 10 October 2018 at 11:48 pm UTC

maybe microsoft knows, that the desktop market is shrinking. mobilphones are the future and ms has no chance against android and apple. not tomorrow of course, but can you imagine what phones can do in 10 years?

Have tiny screens? Oh wait, they already do that.

The barrier for phones eating the rest of the desktop market is not mostly things like processing power; they're already powerful computers by the standards of not too many years ago, and anyway you can outsource computing power. It's the form factor itself; there are things for which you want the bulk of a desktop--the big screen or two, the comfortable keyboard, the many connections for peripherals and so on. Note the way tablets ended up having all these things to let them act like laptops you put together, with little keyboards and thingies to make the screen sit up.


Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 11 October 2018 at 1:05 am UTC

maybe microsoft knows, that the desktop market is shrinking. mobilphones are the future and ms has no chance against android and apple. not tomorrow of course, but can you imagine what phones can do in 10 years?

Have tiny screens? Oh wait, they already do that.

The barrier for phones eating the rest of the desktop market is not mostly things like processing power; they're already powerful computers by the standards of not too many years ago, and anyway you can outsource computing power. It's the form factor itself; there are things for which you want the bulk of a desktop--the big screen or two, the comfortable keyboard, the many connections for peripherals and so on. Note the way tablets ended up having all these things to let them act like laptops you put together, with little keyboards and thingies to make the screen sit up.

big screen -> glasses, like VR now but smaller. OR foldable OLED displays
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo6nF-T58PA
keyboard -> special gloves, or laserkeyboards
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3P5DZvn7mA
peripherie -> all wireless

It's sometimes hard to remember that microsoft is no longer the company of yore, because when I hear the name my mind automatically goes to things like the stacker case and F.U.D.

I kind of like this new company and I can write that with little to no sour taste in my mouth xD

maybe microsoft knows, that the desktop market is shrinking. mobilphones are the future and ms has no chance against android and apple. not tomorrow of course, but can you imagine what phones can do in 10 years? 10yrs agao we played snakes and now fortnite. in 10yrs we may have a complete office PC on our phones and tablets
even we gamers are a very small market compared to consoles. PS4 has way more sellings than pc games. so who needs a desktop OS in 10yrs?

cloud is the future. maybe cloudgaming and servers have linux. all you need is a tablet and a bluetooth gamepad to play cyberpunk... or a switch and you can play everywhere
even smart tvs could handle streaming. you don't even need a console anymore

Cloud is just a catch phrase. It is nothing new, just extending your local network into the internet. Offloading your management and hardware overhead by sacrificing security. I'm constantly amazed by how much worse the breaches keep getting while simultaneously the push for the cloud, the very thing enabling these massive breaches, keeps getting pushed harder. I had a vendor that was quoting a job for me say, "yeah but they're really getting better with the cloud security". Um, no they're not, not really. The breaches are still getting bigger and bigger. The guys keeping their LAN's local and secure keep sitting back laughing at all the breaches, until the executives force "the cloud" down their throats. Then they sit back and wait for the walls to cave in.

The cloud is great for things that need to be on the internet (internet services) and horrible for things that don't.

maybe microsoft knows, that the desktop market is shrinking. mobilphones are the future and ms has no chance against android and apple. not tomorrow of course, but can you imagine what phones can do in 10 years?

Have tiny screens? Oh wait, they already do that.

The barrier for phones eating the rest of the desktop market is not mostly things like processing power; they're already powerful computers by the standards of not too many years ago, and anyway you can outsource computing power. It's the form factor itself; there are things for which you want the bulk of a desktop--the big screen or two, the comfortable keyboard, the many connections for peripherals and so on. Note the way tablets ended up having all these things to let them act like laptops you put together, with little keyboards and thingies to make the screen sit up.

big screen -> glasses, like VR now but smaller. OR foldable OLED displays
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo6nF-T58PA
keyboard -> special gloves, or laserkeyboards
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3P5DZvn7mA
peripherie -> all wireless

All that will doubtless happen, but look: Our perception of the rise of the phone and the fall of the desktop is shaped by markets. But that's about the pace of sales. In terms of actual use, there aren't a lot of places where there used to be desktops but they stopped using them in favour of phones. It's just that the market for desktops got saturated and planned obsolescence for them has weakened (who needs the latest and greatest to do spreadsheets at work?), while phones established a big new niche of their own and have so far been hanging on to planned obsolescence like grim death. So, sales of phones have grown and sales of desktops have shrunk. But the two things don't in my opinion have nearly as much to do with each other as people tend to think. It's just that desktops are a mature technology, not a new growing one.
So, sure, those snazzy technologies of which you speak will put in an appearance, phones will become cooler and more powerful . . . and people will continue to use desktop computers.

What I wonder about, is whether exFAT and ActiveSync implementations can be used in Linux distros without patent threats from MS now.

No: http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2018/10/10/microsoft-oin-exfat.html

Most importantly, the non-aggression pact only applies to the upstream versions of software, including Linux itself. [...] While we at Conservancy were successful in getting the code that implements exfat for Linux released under GPL (by Samsung), that code has not been upstreamed into Linux. So, Microsoft has not included any patents they might hold on exfat into the patent non-aggression pact.

Well, exFAT patent is how Microsoft cashing Android ($5 to $15 per device royalty) and among big obstacle for Linux mobile devices. Hell no they'll open it.

maybe microsoft knows, that the desktop market is shrinking. mobilphones are the future and ms has no chance against android and apple. not tomorrow of course, but can you imagine what phones can do in 10 years? 10yrs agao we played snakes and now fortnite. in 10yrs we may have a complete office PC on our phones and tablets
even we gamers are a very small market compared to consoles. PS4 has way more sellings than pc games. so who needs a desktop OS in 10yrs?

cloud is the future. maybe cloudgaming and servers have linux. all you need is a tablet and a bluetooth gamepad to play cyberpunk... or a switch and you can play everywhere
even smart tvs could handle streaming. you don't even need a console anymore

Cloud is just a catch phrase. It is nothing new, just extending your local network into the internet. Offloading your management and hardware overhead by sacrificing security. I'm constantly amazed by how much worse the breaches keep getting while simultaneously the push for the cloud, the very thing enabling these massive breaches, keeps getting pushed harder. I had a vendor that was quoting a job for me say, "yeah but they're really getting better with the cloud security". Um, no they're not, not really. The breaches are still getting bigger and bigger. The guys keeping their LAN's local and secure keep sitting back laughing at all the breaches, until the executives force "the cloud" down their throats. Then they sit back and wait for the walls to cave in.

The cloud is great for things that need to be on the internet (internet services) and horrible for things that don't.

Urgh, tell me about it. At my library we got a new system for all our info, and it's in the bloody cloud. So where it used to be if we checked out a book the reaction was instant, because the database was in the buiding, now there's a couple seconds lag on every single action because we're in Vancouver and the server is in bloody Toronto. It's also browser based, and the people who wrote it cunningly set it up so that if you open a new tab to do two things at once with it, your actions on the two tabs write to both or something so it corrupts your data. So we can't do that. And it breaks if you use browser controls like the reload or back button, you have to use their little "back" control instead, which varies its position depending how the browser is laying out the page. Has all the disadvantages of a web app but few of the advantages. But, you know, web apps and the cloud are fashionable. Gah.

What I wonder about, is whether exFAT and ActiveSync implementations can be used in Linux distros without patent threats from MS now.

No: http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2018/10/10/microsoft-oin-exfat.html

Most importantly, the non-aggression pact only applies to the upstream versions of software, including Linux itself. [...] While we at Conservancy were successful in getting the code that implements exfat for Linux released under GPL (by Samsung), that code has not been upstreamed into Linux. So, Microsoft has not included any patents they might hold on exfat into the patent non-aggression pact.

Well, exFAT patent is how Microsoft cashing Android ($5 to $15 per device royalty) and among big obstacle for Linux mobile devices. Hell no they'll open it.

Mind you, I believe Samsung are among the outfits paying that tax, and they'd probably rather not. If I were them, I would upstream that code to Linux itself posthaste and beg the maintainers to take it in. As soon as it's in there in a part of Linux that Android uses, presumably Microsoft either has to pull back out of the OIN or lay off.

maybe microsoft knows, that the desktop market is shrinking. mobilphones are the future and ms has no chance against android and apple. not tomorrow of course, but can you imagine what phones can do in 10 years? 10yrs agao we played snakes and now fortnite. in 10yrs we may have a complete office PC on our phones and tablets
even we gamers are a very small market compared to consoles. PS4 has way more sellings than pc games. so who needs a desktop OS in 10yrs?

cloud is the future. maybe cloudgaming and servers have linux. all you need is a tablet and a bluetooth gamepad to play cyberpunk... or a switch and you can play everywhere
even smart tvs could handle streaming. you don't even need a console anymore

Cloud is just a catch phrase. It is nothing new, just extending your local network into the internet. Offloading your management and hardware overhead by sacrificing security. I'm constantly amazed by how much worse the breaches keep getting while simultaneously the push for the cloud, the very thing enabling these massive breaches, keeps getting pushed harder. I had a vendor that was quoting a job for me say, "yeah but they're really getting better with the cloud security". Um, no they're not, not really. The breaches are still getting bigger and bigger. The guys keeping their LAN's local and secure keep sitting back laughing at all the breaches, until the executives force "the cloud" down their throats. Then they sit back and wait for the walls to cave in.

The cloud is great for things that need to be on the internet (internet services) and horrible for things that don't.

Urgh, tell me about it. At my library we got a new system for all our info, and it's in the bloody cloud. So where it used to be if we checked out a book the reaction was instant, because the database was in the buiding, now there's a couple seconds lag on every single action because we're in Vancouver and the server is in bloody Toronto. It's also browser based, and the people who wrote it cunningly set it up so that if you open a new tab to do two things at once with it, your actions on the two tabs write to both or something so it corrupts your data. So we can't do that. And it breaks if you use browser controls like the reload or back button, you have to use their little "back" control instead, which varies its position depending how the browser is laying out the page. Has all the disadvantages of a web app but few of the advantages. But, you know, web apps and the cloud are fashionable. Gah.

That is another huge issue. Browser features aren't stable. All this rolling release stuff means you can't depend on anything working a certain way. If you are going to do something in the browser, you better make sure the devs are updating constantly to support current browser versions. If they aren't be prepared for constant breakage or accept using a browser version many versions out of date, maybe you can get by by constantly fiddling with the settings after updates.

Urgh, tell me about it. At my library we got a new system for all our info, and it's in the bloody cloud. So where it used to be if we checked out a book the reaction was instant, because the database was in the buiding, now there's a couple seconds lag on every single action because we're in Vancouver and the server is in bloody Toronto. It's also browser based, and the people who wrote it cunningly set it up so that if you open a new tab to do two things at once with it, your actions on the two tabs write to both or something so it corrupts your data. So we can't do that. And it breaks if you use browser controls like the reload or back button, you have to use their little "back" control instead, which varies its position depending how the browser is laying out the page. Has all the disadvantages of a web app but few of the advantages. But, you know, web apps and the cloud are fashionable. Gah.

One agency I translate for uses a Web-based translation interface. It's great because I don't need to pay hundreds for a license to a proprietary program that only runs on Windows. It sucks because for three hours today I couldn't get any work done while the server constantly threw up 502s or logged me out of my session. And I can't ever have two files opened at once in different tabs or computers because oh boy that is way beyond the Cloud's capabilities apparently.

maybe microsoft knows, that the desktop market is shrinking. mobilphones are the future and ms has no chance against android and apple. not tomorrow of course, but can you imagine what phones can do in 10 years? 10yrs agao we played snakes and now fortnite. in 10yrs we may have a complete office PC on our phones and tablets
even we gamers are a very small market compared to consoles. PS4 has way more sellings than pc games. so who needs a desktop OS in 10yrs?

cloud is the future. maybe cloudgaming and servers have linux. all you need is a tablet and a bluetooth gamepad to play cyberpunk... or a switch and you can play everywhere
even smart tvs could handle streaming. you don't even need a console anymore

Cloud is just a catch phrase. It is nothing new, just extending your local network into the internet. Offloading your management and hardware overhead by sacrificing security. I'm constantly amazed by how much worse the breaches keep getting while simultaneously the push for the cloud, the very thing enabling these massive breaches, keeps getting pushed harder. I had a vendor that was quoting a job for me say, "yeah but they're really getting better with the cloud security". Um, no they're not, not really. The breaches are still getting bigger and bigger. The guys keeping their LAN's local and secure keep sitting back laughing at all the breaches, until the executives force "the cloud" down their throats. Then they sit back and wait for the walls to cave in.

The cloud is great for things that need to be on the internet (internet services) and horrible for things that don't.

Urgh, tell me about it. At my library we got a new system for all our info, and it's in the bloody cloud. So where it used to be if we checked out a book the reaction was instant, because the database was in the buiding, now there's a couple seconds lag on every single action because we're in Vancouver and the server is in bloody Toronto. It's also browser based, and the people who wrote it cunningly set it up so that if you open a new tab to do two things at once with it, your actions on the two tabs write to both or something so it corrupts your data. So we can't do that. And it breaks if you use browser controls like the reload or back button, you have to use their little "back" control instead, which varies its position depending how the browser is laying out the page. Has all the disadvantages of a web app but few of the advantages. But, you know, web apps and the cloud are fashionable. Gah.

i dont think so, if i watch kids today. they dont care about PC/laptops anymore. they browse the web with their phone, they watch netflix with their phones, they listen to music with their phones, they play games on their phones

maybe microsoft knows, that the desktop market is shrinking. mobilphones are the future and ms has no chance against android and apple. not tomorrow of course, but can you imagine what phones can do in 10 years? 10yrs agao we played snakes and now fortnite. in 10yrs we may have a complete office PC on our phones and tablets
even we gamers are a very small market compared to consoles. PS4 has way more sellings than pc games. so who needs a desktop OS in 10yrs?

cloud is the future. maybe cloudgaming and servers have linux. all you need is a tablet and a bluetooth gamepad to play cyberpunk... or a switch and you can play everywhere
even smart tvs could handle streaming. you don't even need a console anymore

Cloud is just a catch phrase. It is nothing new, just extending your local network into the internet. Offloading your management and hardware overhead by sacrificing security. I'm constantly amazed by how much worse the breaches keep getting while simultaneously the push for the cloud, the very thing enabling these massive breaches, keeps getting pushed harder. I had a vendor that was quoting a job for me say, "yeah but they're really getting better with the cloud security". Um, no they're not, not really. The breaches are still getting bigger and bigger. The guys keeping their LAN's local and secure keep sitting back laughing at all the breaches, until the executives force "the cloud" down their throats. Then they sit back and wait for the walls to cave in.

The cloud is great for things that need to be on the internet (internet services) and horrible for things that don't.

if you worried about that, then your account here isnt save, your amazon account isnt save, your netflix account isnt save... both have your credit card number
you accually shouldnt be on the internet at all, because "they" track you and send you ads and malware
do you have a phone? google or apple knows where you are, where you have been and even where you going

you have to trust these things, to make your work/life easier. i almost dont even use office anymore. i use "google documents". thats more than enough for my purpose and i have all my files on every device

could it be unsave? Yes
do i have very important stuff there? NO
the same thing with your vendor. what would they lose, if someone hacks into it? do they get private stuff, or "just" bills, bank balance and adresses

Say what you wish to of Ballmer or Gates, and I could in theory write a book on the two of them and just their negative impacts on the tech community and tech sector, but everything I've heard or seen involving Nadella, both of his time at Sun and at MS, suggests he truly is on board with the kind of thing this move, on it's face, suggests.
The bigger question here is going to be in terms of the MS board and the general corporate culture of the company, both of which, to my understanding, maintain a general strong distrust of FOSS, Linux, the GPL, et al (at least as strong as our own community's distrust of their company). That in turn is a major standing part of Gates' legacy (among those of others) which is itself ultimately just the festering residual fallout of the Altair BASIC fiasco some forty years ago. It'll likely take another forty years of leadership in line with Nadella's and several further unbreakable corporate commitments in this vein to dissolve that bitter history into dust on the wind both in their halls and in our community. I truly hope this is the path we're all now pointed down, even if history has shown me not to hold my breath in that regard.

It's sometimes hard to remember that microsoft is no longer the company of yore, because when I hear the name my mind automatically goes to things like the stacker case and F.U.D.

I kind of like this new company and I can write that with little to no sour taste in my mouth xD

I'll make my decision what to think of the current state of Microsoft when they bought Obsidian and part 3 of a Big Game is announced... (just a really wild guess of course..)


Last edited by Nevertheless on 11 October 2018 at 4:49 am UTC

Linux is going to conquer the whole world. It is a matter of when, not if. So Microsoft is making the right moves... I expect them to turn Windows into a Linux distro + proprietary libraries/API/DE at some point. It will be cheaper for them to maintain, will be able to enter most markets Windows can't enter/dominate now, like mobiles/servers, and will still allow them to be top dog, assuming they create a good and polished Linux based desktop OS and make linux-compatible versions of their stuff like Office...

People may laugh at this idea now, but it is an inevitability. Trust me. It may not happen in 5 or even 10 years, but it will eventually... The traditional "pay for a Windows licence" model is dead.

It's certainly crazy but it is an idea I've been wondering about for a while now. Turn Windows in to a Linux distro that doesn't run Linux...

GNU/Windows!!!


Last edited by Luke_Nukem on 11 October 2018 at 4:54 am UTC