Embrace, extend, and protect? Microsoft joins the Open Invention Network to 'protect Linux and open source'

Urgh, tell me about it. At my library we got a new system for all our info, and it's in the bloody cloud. So where it used to be if we checked out a book the reaction was instant, because the database was in the buiding, now there's a couple seconds lag on every single action because we're in Vancouver and the server is in bloody Toronto. It's also browser based, and the people who wrote it cunningly set it up so that if you open a new tab to do two things at once with it, your actions on the two tabs write to both or something so it corrupts your data. So we can't do that. And it breaks if you use browser controls like the reload or back button, you have to use their little "back" control instead, which varies its position depending how the browser is laying out the page. Has all the disadvantages of a web app but few of the advantages. But, you know, web apps and the cloud are fashionable. Gah.

One agency I translate for uses a Web-based translation interface. It's great because I don't need to pay hundreds for a license to a proprietary program that only runs on Windows. It sucks because for three hours today I couldn't get any work done while the server constantly threw up 502s or logged me out of my session. And I can't ever have two files opened at once in different tabs or computers because oh boy that is way beyond the Cloud's capabilities apparently.

That is one thing I have to admit: The web-based thing runs on my Linux laptop, which is occasionally handy.

If Microsoft really wanted to outdo themselves, they can use Linux as the backend for their next windows release, now that would be crazy, maybe make WINDOWS a desktop environment just like gnome/xfce/plasma5, that be pretty cool.

Mind in the clouds thoughts, I know...

If Microsoft really wanted to outdo themselves, they can use Linux as the backend for their next windows release, now that would be crazy, maybe make WINDOWS a desktop environment just like gnome/xfce/plasma5, that be pretty cool.

Mind in the clouds thoughts, I know...

It would have to be a DE that did all the bad stuff Windows 10 is supposed to do now. I wouldn't want it as much as don't want Windows 10.
Why would I want a Linux coming from Microsoft, when I can have a real one without MS spyware?

maybe microsoft knows, that the desktop market is shrinking. mobilphones are the future and ms has no chance against android and apple. not tomorrow of course, but can you imagine what phones can do in 10 years? 10yrs agao we played snakes and now fortnite. in 10yrs we may have a complete office PC on our phones and tablets
even we gamers are a very small market compared to consoles. PS4 has way more sellings than pc games. so who needs a desktop OS in 10yrs?

cloud is the future. maybe cloudgaming and servers have linux. all you need is a tablet and a bluetooth gamepad to play cyberpunk... or a switch and you can play everywhere
even smart tvs could handle streaming. you don't even need a console anymore

Cloud is just a catch phrase. It is nothing new, just extending your local network into the internet. Offloading your management and hardware overhead by sacrificing security. I'm constantly amazed by how much worse the breaches keep getting while simultaneously the push for the cloud, the very thing enabling these massive breaches, keeps getting pushed harder. I had a vendor that was quoting a job for me say, "yeah but they're really getting better with the cloud security". Um, no they're not, not really. The breaches are still getting bigger and bigger. The guys keeping their LAN's local and secure keep sitting back laughing at all the breaches, until the executives force "the cloud" down their throats. Then they sit back and wait for the walls to cave in.

The cloud is great for things that need to be on the internet (internet services) and horrible for things that don't.

Urgh, tell me about it. At my library we got a new system for all our info, and it's in the bloody cloud. So where it used to be if we checked out a book the reaction was instant, because the database was in the buiding, now there's a couple seconds lag on every single action because we're in Vancouver and the server is in bloody Toronto. It's also browser based, and the people who wrote it cunningly set it up so that if you open a new tab to do two things at once with it, your actions on the two tabs write to both or something so it corrupts your data. So we can't do that. And it breaks if you use browser controls like the reload or back button, you have to use their little "back" control instead, which varies its position depending how the browser is laying out the page. Has all the disadvantages of a web app but few of the advantages. But, you know, web apps and the cloud are fashionable. Gah.

i dont think so, if i watch kids today. they dont care about PC/laptops anymore. they browse the web with their phone, they watch netflix with their phones, they listen to music with their phones, they play games on their phones

maybe microsoft knows, that the desktop market is shrinking. mobilphones are the future and ms has no chance against android and apple. not tomorrow of course, but can you imagine what phones can do in 10 years? 10yrs agao we played snakes and now fortnite. in 10yrs we may have a complete office PC on our phones and tablets
even we gamers are a very small market compared to consoles. PS4 has way more sellings than pc games. so who needs a desktop OS in 10yrs?

cloud is the future. maybe cloudgaming and servers have linux. all you need is a tablet and a bluetooth gamepad to play cyberpunk... or a switch and you can play everywhere
even smart tvs could handle streaming. you don't even need a console anymore

Cloud is just a catch phrase. It is nothing new, just extending your local network into the internet. Offloading your management and hardware overhead by sacrificing security. I'm constantly amazed by how much worse the breaches keep getting while simultaneously the push for the cloud, the very thing enabling these massive breaches, keeps getting pushed harder. I had a vendor that was quoting a job for me say, "yeah but they're really getting better with the cloud security". Um, no they're not, not really. The breaches are still getting bigger and bigger. The guys keeping their LAN's local and secure keep sitting back laughing at all the breaches, until the executives force "the cloud" down their throats. Then they sit back and wait for the walls to cave in.

The cloud is great for things that need to be on the internet (internet services) and horrible for things that don't.

if you worried about that, then your account here isnt save, your amazon account isnt save, your netflix account isnt save... both have your credit card number
you accually shouldnt be on the internet at all, because "they" track you and send you ads and malware
do you have a phone? google or apple knows where you are, where you have been and even where you going

you have to trust these things, to make your work/life easier. i almost dont even use office anymore. i use "google documents". thats more than enough for my purpose and i have all my files on every device

could it be unsave? Yes
do i have very important stuff there? NO
the same thing with your vendor. what would they lose, if someone hacks into it? do they get private stuff, or "just" bills, bank balance and adresses

You're right most accounts aren't safe. That is why I don't put information in them I really don't want compromised. I have very few accounts which actually have my card info, and I monitor my cards often for that reason. You don't have to trust everything, you pick and choose what you want to trust. Trusting something because people say you should while logic and real world instances indicate you shouldn't isn't very wise. The "cloud", AKA the internet, isn't going anywhere but at some point I see people that are really serious about security keeping large parts of their infrastructure local.


Last edited by m2mg2 on 11 October 2018 at 5:13 am UTC

Urgh, tell me about it. At my library we got a new system for all our info, and it's in the bloody cloud. So where it used to be if we checked out a book the reaction was instant, because the database was in the buiding, now there's a couple seconds lag on every single action because we're in Vancouver and the server is in bloody Toronto. It's also browser based, and the people who wrote it cunningly set it up so that if you open a new tab to do two things at once with it, your actions on the two tabs write to both or something so it corrupts your data. So we can't do that. And it breaks if you use browser controls like the reload or back button, you have to use their little "back" control instead, which varies its position depending how the browser is laying out the page. Has all the disadvantages of a web app but few of the advantages. But, you know, web apps and the cloud are fashionable. Gah.

One agency I translate for uses a Web-based translation interface. It's great because I don't need to pay hundreds for a license to a proprietary program that only runs on Windows. It sucks because for three hours today I couldn't get any work done while the server constantly threw up 502s or logged me out of my session. And I can't ever have two files opened at once in different tabs or computers because oh boy that is way beyond the Cloud's capabilities apparently.

Making OS agnostic services is a plus for browser based apps, it's really annoying though when they use a browser interface and still find a way to make it not work on Linux.

i dont think so, if i watch kids today. they dont care about PC/laptops anymore. they browse the web with their phone, they watch netflix with their phones, they listen to music with their phones, they play games on their phones

That isn't evidence of replacement. Kids yesterday didn't have the phones . . . but they didn't have desktop computers of their own, either. Mind you, my daughter does do a lot of that on her phone. Annnnd she edits video on her Macbook Pro. Just, not in public where you'd see her doing it.
At the university library where I work we have rows and rows of desktop computers; the kids fill them up all. the. time., and we lend out laptops, which are at the point of being more popular than books. The kids do not write their essays on phones.


Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 11 October 2018 at 5:11 am UTC

If Microsoft really wanted to outdo themselves, they can use Linux as the backend for their next windows release, now that would be crazy, maybe make WINDOWS a desktop environment just like gnome/xfce/plasma5, that be pretty cool.

Mind in the clouds thoughts, I know...

It would have to be a DE that did all the bad stuff Windows 10 is supposed to do now. I wouldn't want it as much as don't want Windows 10.
Why would I want a Linux coming from Microsoft, when I can have a real one without MS spyware?

Nah "Windows Next" - with a compatibility modes in the form of wine/dosbox, that could be done today - hell it was done more or less 17 years ago ( Lindows )

And why you would want a Linux distro with the Microsoft stamp on it? Not for your self properly as It's hard to imagine it wouldn't come with half the OS in the form of proprietary binaries - but, a mac os like thing would mean more programs & games that works out of the box with Linux ;)


A guy can dream...

I was about to say "no" with an expressionless face, but what are the 60,000 patents?

i dont think so, if i watch kids today. they dont care about PC/laptops anymore. they browse the web with their phone, they watch netflix with their phones, they listen to music with their phones, they play games on their phones

Most kids didn't care about PCs when I was a kid either. They had watches, gameboys, mp3 players, etc. Doesn't change the fact that we all used computers at/for school, most of us now use them at work and anyone would choose a monitor over a 5-inch screen for their home entertainment if they have the option. Kids were never the main demographic for desktop computers (well, most types of computers), but that doesn't mean they won't use them later. Hell, there are a lot of things kids don't care about that they will need later on. Their lack of interest hardly indicates the death of an industry.

Yeah and probably laughing their arses off while Gabe is making the platform more and more viable to transition too for windows. the opensource community has already done the majority of the work and M$ will reap oh will it reap the rewards. If they play it right they win.

Then they will release their own shitty APIs, and expect people to use them on LINUX and start making opensource less opensource by pidgenholing developement to their flavour of LINUX.


Last edited by RossBC on 11 October 2018 at 7:42 am UTC

Well, since speculation is running rampant on this thread... I would like to see them opensource (or even just provide) a UWP runtime on Linux. I wouldn't actually be *that* surprised to see them do so, and would allow them to stay relevant, while pushing forward a solution they control. And having Microsoft Store on every platform would provide them with a generous cut of all the software sold. UWP as the next electron/java... we're going in circles :D

Regarding this move, this might also be that they were interested in some patents from the pool... Although I don't see how likely this would be.

https://twitter.com/natfriedman/status/1050080717562990592

We did not exclude any patents from our OIN commitment to license our portfolio to the Linux System. We signed the standard OIN License Agreement, and didn’t negotiate any exclusions. We actually clicked through the OIN agreement like any other licensee!

They have a lot of explications, but not excuse for for not funding GOL.

Haha, imagine how wild it would be if Microsoft were to sponsor Liam... A wide Microsoft banner on the website, now, that would be something ^^

Linux is going to conquer the whole world. It is a matter of when, not if. So Microsoft is making the right moves... I expect them to turn Windows into a Linux distro + proprietary libraries/API/DE at some point. It will be cheaper for them to maintain, will be able to enter most markets Windows can't enter/dominate now, like mobiles/servers, and will still allow them to be top dog, assuming they create a good and polished Linux based desktop OS and make linux-compatible versions of their stuff like Office...

People may laugh at this idea now, but it is an inevitability. Trust me. It may not happen in 5 or even 10 years, but it will eventually... The traditional "pay for a Windows licence" model is dead.

It's certainly crazy but it is an idea I've been wondering about for a while now. Turn Windows in to a Linux distro that doesn't run Linux...

GNU/Windows!!!

This idea has been floating around for a while, but your terminology is Flawed ;) You can't have Linux without Linux.
Currently, what is being called Windows could be put as Win32/NT. GNU/Windows (GNU/Win32/NT) would be CYGWIN. Win32/Linux is something WINE does (and what you might be thinking about). GNU/NT is taken care of by WSL. More combinations to come if you count EXPLORER.EXE's shell in the lot.

Microsoft has already witnessed the inevitability of competing with opensource. Internet Explorer once ruled the internet with an iron grip when Netscape was opensourced to become Mozilla and Firefox... Alongside Chromium they utterly destroyed Microsoft's marketshare. Today IE and Edge marketshare is a joke...

I get what you're saying, but the ruling browser nowadays is Chrome, which is proprietary (although there's Chromium, the "community edition").

Liam, there's a bug just above, I never put a smiley, it's " ) that get parsed as one.


Last edited by MayeulC on 11 October 2018 at 7:56 am UTC

I am 90% sure the Linux community will try and spin this the wrong way.

I'm honestly surprised at many of the responses here. It looks like you haven't really been in touch with the IT world in at least ten years?

It's fair enough to be sceptical, I can totally relate to that, but over the last 5-6 years there's been significant policy changes in how Microsoft has approached open source in general and Linux in particular. So much so that it's made nonstop headlines in the IT press. Hence my surprise.

Their dedication is of a very wide nature and involves a lot of areas. Examples are aplenty: Linux version of Visual Studio Code (and a bloody good editor it is too) and MSSQL server, investment in time and money on the Linux Foundation, cooperation with both Canonical and Redhat on running their distros on Azure and Windows 10, change to supporting GIT over their own versioning system, I mean... I could go on and on. The list really is extensive. This is just how it is.

I'm an old man myself, and by God I tell you I've swore and cursed over their name many a times. I was there in the 90s and early 2000 when they did nothing but to inject and pollute every single open standard protocol on the whole god damn internet, shitty implementations where their friggin' trademark! Not to mention their CEOs and their attitude towards Linux.

But this is not the case today. Yes, they are a corporation and yes they have an agenda, but so do every other commercial company, also those who for a long time has proven to support Linux. Open source and corporations can coexist and benefit from each other - they have, for a very long time already. The Linux kernel would not have been what it is today had it not been for contributions from the big, commercial actors out there. Corporations have been depending on Linux for decades already - and Linux depend on them too.

There are no impenetrable walls between Linux and the corporate world, other than amongst evangelists and - yes I dare say it - fanatics.


Last edited by Beamboom on 11 October 2018 at 9:07 am UTC

In all honesty its the fact that windows runs slow costs $$ for effectively putting malware on your computer. How they process and use information. windows is fine without all the extra bull.
I'd use it if the only thing I ran on it would be steam and nothing else ever outside of games.
Admittedly i'm getting to that point.
Would have the laptop as my dedicated Linux box for everything that's not gaming related.
Not saying i like microsoft just saying, I like playing games without massive hindrance.
Just hoping microsoft doesn't destroy a good eco system because it can pretty much.

Give it a couple of years the I told you so's will start flying :D

Linux is going to conquer the whole world. It is a matter of when, not if. So Microsoft is making the right moves... I expect them to turn Windows into a Linux distro + proprietary libraries/API/DE at some point. It will be cheaper for them to maintain, will be able to enter most markets Windows can't enter/dominate now, like mobiles/servers, and will still allow them to be top dog, assuming they create a good and polished Linux based desktop OS and make linux-compatible versions of their stuff like Office...

People may laugh at this idea now, but it is an inevitability. Trust me. It may not happen in 5 or even 10 years, but it will eventually... The traditional "pay for a Windows licence" model is dead.

Well, G. is going away from Linux kernel with Fuchsia, so I'm not so sure about ruling the world. Depending on definition of ruling, we might have already been there though.

Still I am also quite sure its likely for them to go with Linux and do not ask their Customers to pay for their software directly. Maintaining their kernel by themselves must cost enormous amount of money.

We need time to decide whether this move will be beneficial or not for us as a community. I don't like it, but I'm just an individual not that knowledgeable so better keep my mouth shut for now.

i dont think so, if i watch kids today. they dont care about PC/laptops anymore. they browse the web with their phone, they watch netflix with their phones, they listen to music with their phones, they play games on their phones

Most kids didn't care about PCs when I was a kid either. They had watches, gameboys, mp3 players, etc. Doesn't change the fact that we all used computers at/for school, most of us now use them at work and anyone would choose a monitor over a 5-inch screen for their home entertainment if they have the option. Kids were never the main demographic for desktop computers (well, most types of computers), but that doesn't mean they won't use them later. Hell, there are a lot of things kids don't care about that they will need later on. Their lack of interest hardly indicates the death of an industry.

imho thats wrong. they dont need computers, we dont need computers. we need SOFTWARE and as i said: this software will run on phones in the near future

so maybe the new generation doesnt adapt to PCs, but software adapts to the new generation

I'm still skeptical about Microsoft being a net good for Linux. As for the dreaded "three Es", there are a lot of signs that Microsoft is moving in on what was once considered FOSS "territory". Whether or not they mean well has yet to be seen over the long term. The new Linux kernel CoC is also concerning because it does seem to codify "niceness" and admin discretion in a way that could mean "I can kick you off the project for no reason (or for being offensive to anybody online ever)."

Call it conspiracy if you like, but when this particular CoC has made some projects devolve into infighting, I'm not obligated to say "yeah, everything's fine with Linux."

And no, I don't really want people to convince me otherwise about these worries, please don't try (I've already read the positive comments here on both the article and the CoC and made note of them). I've been burned too many times by too many people/projects in the past to let this kind of stuff go completely.

To get back on-topic a bit more: If Microsoft helps Linux, great, but a business with shareholders rarely stops saying "what's in it for me" and tries to do whatever possible to make sure they've made more money than the last quarter; sometimes they do it in a "nice" way, sometimes they do it in an asshole way.

It isn't exactly Microsoft that I'm innately suspect of, it's any publicly traded company. Good things in companies or companies themselves can fail because of shareholders getting too poor. (Glad Valve has stayed private...)

All we can do is wait and see... (EDIT: put an extra word in for clarity)


Last edited by namiko on 11 October 2018 at 11:28 am UTC

If Microsoft really wanted to outdo themselves, they can use Linux as the backend for their next windows release, now that would be crazy, maybe make WINDOWS a desktop environment just like gnome/xfce/plasma5, that be pretty cool.

Mind in the clouds thoughts, I know...

It would have to be a DE that did all the bad stuff Windows 10 is supposed to do now. I wouldn't want it as much as don't want Windows 10.
Why would I want a Linux coming from Microsoft, when I can have a real one without MS spyware?

Nah "Windows Next" - with a compatibility modes in the form of wine/dosbox, that could be done today - hell it was done more or less 17 years ago ( Lindows )

And why you would want a Linux distro with the Microsoft stamp on it? Not for your self properly as It's hard to imagine it wouldn't come with half the OS in the form of proprietary binaries - but, a mac os like thing would mean more programs & games that works out of the box with Linux ;)


A guy can dream...

If we benefit from it as much as Darwin from Mac OS or BSD from Playstation OS, then I'm not sure it would be that great... Microsoft might start boasting around saying: "Hey, look, we love Linux, we actually made it better! Our Linux runs UWP Apps!"


Last edited by Nevertheless on 11 October 2018 at 11:49 am UTC

People wondering why they would want a Linux based windows OS when they can have "the real thing", they need to look at android... Why use android on phones when you can use the real thing, linux itself?

At some point the vast majority of consumers need stability, quality assurance, eye candy, compatibility, the "it just works" mentality that Linux distros lack. Microsoft and other behemoths have the resources to ensure such a thing. It is the same thing Canonical has been trying for more than a decade with moderate success. Yet despite the fact that Ubuntu is very flawed as a distro, it still is the most widely used... Why not use the real thing (Debian) instead of Ubuntu or Mint?

Windows 10 has become a huge monstrosity of spaghetti code that is very hard to improve and maintain. Everytime they update something they even delete user files... It makes sense, most people responsible for large parts of Windows code have retired... The cost to develop and maintain Windows is on the rise while the profits are slim. The OS itself is fast becoming a liability for Microsoft, and is only useful for running their other more profitable stuff like Office, .Net, Azure, Xbox, etc.

Microsoft has already witnessed the inevitability of competing with opensource. Internet Explorer once ruled the internet with an iron grip when Netscape was opensourced to become Mozilla and Firefox... Alongside Chromium they utterly destroyed Microsoft's marketshare. Today IE and Edge marketshare is a joke...

So why keep Windows at all? Why not just port their profitable stuff on Linux, which is free software and the burden of development and maintainance falls on many companies/individuals and not just them? If you can't beat them, join them...

Obviously Microsoft will still keep a large part of the OS closed source, like Apple did with Macintosh and Darwin. And believe me, if they play their cards right, it will pay dividends to them because people will flock to Windows L(inux kernel) in droves...

Add the benefit of being better able to port their work on servers and mobile and you got a sweet deal for MS. It is a nobrainer.

Obviously it can't happen really soon. Remember Microsoft still has the upper hand on the Desktop and don't intend to just waste it. They will try to milk their Windows 10 dry first. But they need to prepare the next day.

And how you begin transitioning to Linux? First you need to make sure your compiler toolchain is up to snuff... Seeing as Linux already has one in place for C and C++, you just make sure your (ex) prioprietary framework and tools also work. Can you say .Net Core? Can you say opensourced Visual Studio? See where this is going?

If that happened we'd have to protect Linux from Microsoft once more. This time from within. They will start to influence kernel development more.. That's one big coocoo in our nest...