Book of Demons no longer getting a native Linux port, developer plans on 'supporting' Steam Play (updated)

They gave an update: https://steamcommunity.com/app/449960/discussions/0/357285398694738336/?tscn=1541439466#c2805074491028324108

We run in pretty much all kinds of issues. On some distros/hardware configs sound was crackling. We have had issues with game losing focus, resolutions going haywire when the window was minimized, on some hardware configs dungeons would be generated incorrectly, and, last but not least, on Linux our OpenGL renderer was at least 30% slower than it's DirectX implementation (weird since the same code flies on Mac). These are not all issues we ran into and we tested it on very limited number of hardware/software combinations.

We ran limited tests on players and even with a small group every player had at least some issues that took us from day to three days of work to fix. And even within that small group some players tried running the game on unsupported distros and were unhappy that we really don't support their distros or reported issues like they were happening on Ubuntu even though it was Arch ;-)

We spent far more time on Linux port than on Mac port. Shelving it was a very difficult decision for us because we do believe in Linux gaming and for the last month we felt that we were "almost there". However, our regular development was getting seriously hampered by Linux port efforts and it was time to make a tough choice.

Proton is not perfect but it's working well with Book of Demons. Actually, our native port was much slower than the game played in Proton (as I mentioned we had performance issues with OpenGL renderer). By "official support" for Proton we mean that if issues specific to Proton occur we will work on fixing them, not just write them off to "well it's a weird emulator on Linux we don't support that". The main issue here is that Book of Demons works in Proton and releasing the native port would disable Proton for BoD. So people playing the game now on Linux wouldn't be able to do so anymore if the native port had any issues on their machines.

Last but not least, we are shelving the Linux port, not outright killing it. This doesn't mean we won't do it after the launch. We really sacrificed a lot of time on that port and we too would love to see it happen. Especially if Proton turns out to be more problematic than it seems. However, the port can't happen this year, we simply don't have resources for that with early access exit around the corner.

I am very glad this is happening. The game is not a AAA game, it can play on a toaster, so any performance penalty from Steamplay won't affect us much.

I take it you've never worked on a non-AAA game in Wine or have ported a non-AAA game to linux.

Performance *always* matters, if you want to build a customer base.

And i would rather have a proper proton-based release that will be supported forever, than a half-assed native port that will be abandoned and will never play in the future...

Products are abandoned by their developers on their original platforms all the time too.

Products are abandoned by their developers on their original platforms all the time too.

... And for these old titles that are not supported on Windows anymore, all you need to do is run them on Linux through Wine... Did I said that?! Lol!

@Arkhenius: Hey! It's been a long time I haven't seen anything Raistlin related. Nice! Gave me an idea...


Last edited by Mohandevir on 5 Nov 2018 at 10:11 pm UTC

I don't know. If you consider a native port not worth the effort, that's sad, but okay from a technical POV.

Yet, if you argue that you end up with plenty of issues trying to port your code base (crackling sound and whatnot) and then claim a generic compatibility layer outright beats you, then you're probably not a very good developer.

... And this is exactly what the pessimists were worried about.

And it's also what the optimists were hoping for. Instead of maybe just giving up Linux support completely, the developer now looks out for Steam Play compatibility at least. What's the harm in it? If you want the game, you will be able to play it on Linux.

... And this is exactly what the pessimists were worried about.

And it's also what the optimists were hoping for. Instead of maybe just giving up Linux support completely, the developer now looks out for Steam Play compatibility at least. What's the harm in it? If you want the game, you will be able to play it on Linux.

Problem is , what kind of compability they would be looking for?

Using Wine / Proton just as a surface for not dealing Linux specific things but using OGL or Vulkan in their game , not including crazy drm etc
OR
Just hoping it works alright with existing Windows version?

There is a huge difference between them.

... And this is exactly what the pessimists were worried about.

And it's also what the optimists were hoping for. Instead of maybe just giving up Linux support completely, the developer now looks out for Steam Play compatibility at least. What's the harm in it? If you want the game, you will be able to play it on Linux.

Problem is , what kind of compability they would be looking for?

Using Wine / Proton just as a surface for not dealing Linux specific things but using OGL or Vulkan in their game , not including crazy drm etc
OR
Just hoping it works alright with existing Windows version?

There is a huge difference between them.

"By "official support" for Proton we mean that if issues specific to Proton occur we will work on fixing them, not just write them off to "well it's a weird emulator on Linux we don't support that"."

As usual everybody hurried to be b*tthurt when a developer drops Linux support, because who can think of an actual legit reason for an undestaffed small studio with no Linux experience not to offer day one perfect native support. But hey - the forum talk heads definitely know better that the people actually making the game. Gosh, I hate that entitled attitude...

Anyway, the follow-up Liam posted is very sensible and they definitely made the right call. If it runs with close to Windows performance and they work on Proton compatibility problems - who cares if it's not native. Half the "ports" are Windows games in a wrapper. Maybe soon you can start reviewing official Proton games, too, Liam.

... And this is exactly what the pessimists were worried about.

And it's also what the optimists were hoping for. Instead of maybe just giving up Linux support completely, the developer now looks out for Steam Play compatibility at least. What's the harm in it? If you want the game, you will be able to play it on Linux.

Problem is , what kind of compability they would be looking for?

Using Wine / Proton just as a surface for not dealing Linux specific things but using OGL or Vulkan in their game , not including crazy drm etc
OR
Just hoping it works alright with existing Windows version?

There is a huge difference between them.

"By "official support" for Proton we mean that if issues specific to Proton occur we will work on fixing them, not just write them off to "well it's a weird emulator on Linux we don't support that"."

Is that sounds realistic to you? Seriously , devs who can't deal with native build will fix issues on Proton side things which i'm sure they never used Wine before.

Eventually, all they can do will be reporting issues to Wine tracker in order to get them fixed

As usual everybody hurried to be b*tthurt when a developer drops Linux support, because who can think of an actual legit reason for an undestaffed small studio with no Linux experience not to offer day one perfect native support. But hey - the forum talk heads definitely know better that the people actually making the game. Gosh, I hate that entitled attitude...

Anyway, the follow-up Liam posted is very sensible and they definitely made the right call. If it runs with close to Windows performance and they work on Proton compatibility problems - who cares if it's not native. Half the "ports" are Windows games in a wrapper. Maybe soon you can start reviewing official Proton games, too, Liam.

Don't expect me to believe that.

last but not least, on Linux our OpenGL renderer was at least 30% slower than it's DirectX implementation (weird since the same code flies on Mac).

https://icculus.org/finger/icculus?date=2016-04-25&time=03-02-30

... And this is exactly what the pessimists were worried about.

And it's also what the optimists were hoping for. Instead of maybe just giving up Linux support completely, the developer now looks out for Steam Play compatibility at least. What's the harm in it? If you want the game, you will be able to play it on Linux.

Problem is , what kind of compability they would be looking for?

Using Wine / Proton just as a surface for not dealing Linux specific things but using OGL or Vulkan in their game , not including crazy drm etc
OR
Just hoping it works alright with existing Windows version?

There is a huge difference between them.

"By "official support" for Proton we mean that if issues specific to Proton occur we will work on fixing them, not just write them off to "well it's a weird emulator on Linux we don't support that"."

Is that sounds realistic to you? Seriously , devs who can't deal with native build will fix issues on Proton side things which i'm sure they never used Wine before.

Eventually, all they can do will be reporting issues to Wine tracker in order to get them fixed

I'd say if that's really so, we're better off with a Proton version all the more.

... And this is exactly what the pessimists were worried about.

Sounds more that they would have dropped the Linux port anyway and thanks to Steam Play we now have a official way to enjoy this game after all.

This is expected to happen and I guess a sensible decision by smaller teams. Let's focus on the long-term. Higher market share and Linux visibility is still the most important goal to reach imho, everything else will follow. Proton/Steam Play contributes to that, so I'm cool :)

(That said I feel sorry for the people that prefer GOG as their favorite store)


Last edited by jens on 5 Nov 2018 at 10:53 pm UTC

... And this is exactly what the pessimists were worried about.

And it's also what the optimists were hoping for. Instead of maybe just giving up Linux support completely, the developer now looks out for Steam Play compatibility at least. What's the harm in it? If you want the game, you will be able to play it on Linux.

Problem is , what kind of compability they would be looking for?

Using Wine / Proton just as a surface for not dealing Linux specific things but using OGL or Vulkan in their game , not including crazy drm etc
OR
Just hoping it works alright with existing Windows version?

There is a huge difference between them.

"By "official support" for Proton we mean that if issues specific to Proton occur we will work on fixing them, not just write them off to "well it's a weird emulator on Linux we don't support that"."

Is that sounds realistic to you? Seriously , devs who can't deal with native build will fix issues on Proton side things which i'm sure they never used Wine before.

Eventually, all they can do will be reporting issues to Wine tracker in order to get them fixed

I'd say if that's really so, we're better off with a Proton version all the more.

So that is not supporting SteamPlay , that is expecting SteamPlay to support their title.

Which i was all debating from the start.

... And this is exactly what the pessimists were worried about.

And it's also what the optimists were hoping for. Instead of maybe just giving up Linux support completely, the developer now looks out for Steam Play compatibility at least. What's the harm in it? If you want the game, you will be able to play it on Linux.

Problem is , what kind of compability they would be looking for?

Using Wine / Proton just as a surface for not dealing Linux specific things but using OGL or Vulkan in their game , not including crazy drm etc
OR
Just hoping it works alright with existing Windows version?

There is a huge difference between them.

"By "official support" for Proton we mean that if issues specific to Proton occur we will work on fixing them, not just write them off to "well it's a weird emulator on Linux we don't support that"."

Is that sounds realistic to you? Seriously , devs who can't deal with native build will fix issues on Proton side things which i'm sure they never used Wine before.

Eventually, all they can do will be reporting issues to Wine tracker in order to get them fixed

I'd say if that's really so, we're better off with a Proton version all the more.

So that is not supporting SteamPlay , that is expecting SteamPlay to support their title.

Which i was all debating from the start.

Ok.. the longer form. I meant: If it really is true what you say, and they are unable to do it right, which I wouldn't dare to state, then they won't be able to port the game OR help with Proton compatibility. In this case we're still better off with a Proton version.


Last edited by Nevertheless on 5 Nov 2018 at 11:32 pm UTC

Most people who pretend that "Everything is fine", are casuals who only use vanilla versions of Ubuntu/SteamOS, possibly even outdated versions... But Ubuntu will inevitably have to be upgraded at some point and you will lose access to those games then.

At least with WINE/Proton you know that if a game works 100% fine, it will probably work fine FOREVER, no matter how much sdl2 or other libs change, no matter the distro. Even if a regression happens in WINE, it will be a matter of time before fixing it again. This won't happen with poor "native" ports, those will be abandoned.

Wait, what part of Wine will make it a "will work forever?" And SDL does not?

It's pretty clear you haven't seen how Wine has changed over the years. Yes, as an extended life platform it's probably does do a better job than it's sister platform Win10 does now. But what it does well with Windows executables does not make everything else now unable to compete in support, even if Valve supports Wine.

Also, I can count with just my fingers how many "native" games I've come across no longer work on Linux. Exactly zero. Regressions, nada.

As far as distros go, I can count as many that have broke games due to upgrades, out of those that really worth putting any time into. Yes the debian world, how they handle libraries, packages, and updates, I find very user unfriendly and prone to the troubles that people talk about. But there are better distros out there that don't have these issues.

You also got one more thing to really consider. Most games do end up "abandoned" even those still sold. Platforms have nothing to do with it.

Great update from the developers. It's tough being a small studio, and way too easy to sit here as a gamer and criticise their coding, experience, resources, commitment or whatever.

It's probably even more frustrating for them - if they'd just announced for Windows and Mac, this game wouldn't even have hit our radar and life would have gone on, everyone happy. We're only getting agitated because they TRIED TO SUPPORT OUR PLATFORM.

I don't like the way it's turned out, and no, I'm not (yet) paying for Steam Play titles, so they won't be getting my money. But kudos to them for trying. And you know what, maybe their next title will benefit from their attempts?

But it would be a shame if all the grief they went through, and all the negative comments on this very site actually contributed to put them off any future support.

The only aspect of their decision that bothers is locking out GOG. But I suppose if they support Proton, perhaps DXVK will offer a solution there too.

At the end of the day, it ends up as a Linux sale. So I'm happy enough with that. Its not perfect, sure, but such is life.

[quote=Guest]

They're just letting "Proton" handle things for them and see it as the easy way out.

I don't really agree with that remark. If you replace 'Proton' with 'SDL', 'OpenGL', 'PixiJS', or something similar, that'd be awkward. Game developers don't *need* to know certain stuff, as long as they can make their games work well.

There are differences between those things and Proton, of course, but if it's sensible to use Proton, I don't really feel bad about them doing that, as long as, of course, they're supporting it properly.

In my opinion using Wine/Proton to provide a Linux port is an implementation detail that the end users shouldn't even have to know about. The important thing is that the developers support the Linux version, meaning that they test it on Linux, make sure it runs reasonably well and fix bugs.

Optimally, they would contribute to the Wine development if something does not work yet, or at least report bugs upstream and work around or avoid features that do not work yet. And improvements to an open source project like Wine is something I personally care more about than getting the last bit of performance in a closed source game.