Reports: Valve making their own VR HMD and apparently a new VR Half-Life

Quoting: poisond

Quoting: TheSHEEEP

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: TheSHEEEP

Quoting: GuestVR was basically DOA, and until we get proper peripherals for it instead of roomscale and motion controller trash, it will remain DOA.

Absolutely.
A tech gadget for those with enough money. And space, maybe space is even more important for those games with actual motion controls.
Every time a new VR gadget comes out, the "big future" of VR is announced, and yet, it just doesn't spread. I don't know how many more attempts it will take until even the most diehard fans realize VR is not "the future".
There are just too many games that would never work with VR (or gain absolutely no benefit from it), so that there's just no good reason to reach that deep into one's pockets. Not even beginning to talk about all the other downsides (discomfort, clunkiness, etc.).
It will have its niche, and that niche might even grow a bit (certainly enough to house a few VR-exclusive devs), but that's about it.

Personally I think VR can work out, for most games even, we need a middle step, where both keyboard and mouse are fully replaced by some superior peripheral (maybe something like EEG+speech recognition) and then that needs to be further improved to also be the replacement and successor of the (currently shoddy) motion control gimmick.

Yeah, maybe, some day, but I honestly doubt it will happen within the foreseeable future.

Even eye tracking doesn't really do it, because with kb&m I can do multiple things quickly without even looking.
Speech wouldn't help, either, as speaking a command would take longer than doing a few clicks.

I really couldn't think of anything that would be able to reach or improve on the precision offered by mouse & keyboard - short of "reading" one's mind and translating that into input commands.
And that just sounds like extreme scifi to me. Though if that ever happens, count me in ;)

Did you ever try the Vive controllers?
They're pretty precise and you do have two of them so you can even dual-wield(pretty fun in Serious Sam and Skyrim VR). You can aim much faster than with a mouse - just point your controller at the target.
There's touch pads you can use for movement and turning.
And I don't even know what you'd want a keyboard for in a VR game.

It's extremely important that people know that VR can let all of your surroundings in with newer tech because this is one point people see as unfixable. People like TheSHEEEP haven't thought of any solution and make the assumption that therefore, it can never happen. Well it turns out it has been publically demonstrated and will become a core part of VR throughout the 2020s. Isolation is never going to be a problem unless you want it to be, which is how it should be - choice.

Quoting: NezchanIn fact, I'm one of those people whose brains "never got used to it". Back in the CRT days, I used to love the Half-Life games. Played them a lot, especially 2. But when flatscreen monitors came out, I found myself getting tremendously queasy after about a half-hour of play and that feeling would hang on for a couple of hours.

Mmm, if that's just CRT vs Flat screen, maybe you should try investing in a low persistence display? It's usually branded as "lightboost" or something alike ("motion blur reduction", and maybe those branded with a 1ms response time), and is basically a strobing backlight. Throw in some adaptative sync support for good measure, and higher framerates.

I'm myself pondering about whether to change my aging (10 years) display, as it starts to "display" signs of failure (flashing backlight when at 40%+).

Incidentally, most of those VR headsets have low persistence, high framerate displays. I would like to experiment with fully immersive 3D "desktop environments" when/if I get one.

Quoting: kuhpunkt

Quoting: poisondYou can aim much faster than with a mouse - just point your controller at the target.
There's touch pads you can use for movement and turning.
And I don't even know what you'd want a keyboard for in a VR game.

A mouse is faster for aiming. You just have to slightly move it to turn around and all that stuff.

Yeah, but that makes it harder to look at your surroundings while aiming. So, trade-offs. Modern combat aircraft pilots aim with their headset, while piloting with their hands.


Last edited by MayeulC on 12 November 2018 at 5:44 pm UTC

Quoting: MayeulC

Quoting: NezchanIn fact, I'm one of those people whose brains "never got used to it". Back in the CRT days, I used to love the Half-Life games. Played them a lot, especially 2. But when flatscreen monitors came out, I found myself getting tremendously queasy after about a half-hour of play and that feeling would hang on for a couple of hours.

Mmm, if that's just CRT vs Flat screen, maybe you should try investing in a low persistence display? It's usually branded as "lightboost" or something alike ("motion blur reduction", and maybe those branded with a 1ms response time), and is basically a strobing backlight. Throw in some adaptative sync support for good measure, and higher framerates.

I'm myself pondering about whether to change my aging (10 years) display, as it starts to "display" signs of failure (flashing backlight when at 40%+).

Incidentally, most of those VR headsets have low persistence, high framerate displays. I would like to experiment with fully immersive 3D "desktop environments" when/if I get one.

In the case of monitors, it's a widescreen issue. On old CRT monitors which weren't as wide typically, FoV wasn't a big issue. But on widescreen monitors it is, as the video below illustrates.

https://youtu.be/blZUao2jTGA

Now I haven't researched nausea on VR so I don't know the causes involved (presumably not quite the same as FoV), but I do know there have been a significant number of reports and it's something that VR makers have to overcome if it's going to become ubiquitous like some folks here think it will. Plus you have to overcome the hesitation on the part of people who are nausea-prone who don't want to spend all that money to take their chances and maybe end up sick anyway.

Quoting: GuestVR was basically DOA, and until we get proper peripherals for it instead of roomscale and motion controller trash, it will remain DOA.

VR is amazing. Seriously amazing. I don't know how you can say roomscale is trash. The controllers work well enough for a first iteration on the Vive (been waiting for Knuckles forever).

Unless you've tried some of the amazing things that VR can already do, you are talking out of your ass.

Cost is probably the only real prohibitive thing, and the cost is always going to go down.

Quoting: Nezchan

Quoting: MayeulC

Quoting: NezchanIn fact, I'm one of those people whose brains "never got used to it". Back in the CRT days, I used to love the Half-Life games. Played them a lot, especially 2. But when flatscreen monitors came out, I found myself getting tremendously queasy after about a half-hour of play and that feeling would hang on for a couple of hours.

Mmm, if that's just CRT vs Flat screen, maybe you should try investing in a low persistence display? It's usually branded as "lightboost" or something alike ("motion blur reduction", and maybe those branded with a 1ms response time), and is basically a strobing backlight. Throw in some adaptative sync support for good measure, and higher framerates.

I'm myself pondering about whether to change my aging (10 years) display, as it starts to "display" signs of failure (flashing backlight when at 40%+).

Incidentally, most of those VR headsets have low persistence, high framerate displays. I would like to experiment with fully immersive 3D "desktop environments" when/if I get one.

In the case of monitors, it's a widescreen issue. On old CRT monitors which weren't as wide typically, FoV wasn't a big issue. But on widescreen monitors it is, as the video below illustrates.

https://youtu.be/blZUao2jTGA

Now I haven't researched nausea on VR so I don't know the causes involved (presumably not quite the same as FoV), but I do know there have been a significant number of reports and it's something that VR makers have to overcome if it's going to become ubiquitous like some folks here think it will. Plus you have to overcome the hesitation on the part of people who are nausea-prone who don't want to spend all that money to take their chances and maybe end up sick anyway.

The nausea issue is different per person for sure. Like I can handle some of the worse offenders (like Windlands where you can shoot out claws like in Bionic Commando and swing from tree to tree) Mostly it's the motion of going forward when your body physically is not that makes people want to spew. But there are mods out there (like one that lets you move around by swinging your arms, so your body feels it is more natural).

I've had a Vive since the original pre-orders were shipped, and now have a Vive Pro. Wondering what this new Valve one will have that makes it awesome.

Also, I'm pretty sure I saw Fallout 76 on Steam? So is Bethesda dropping off of Steam?

Quoting: kuhpunktIt seems like you've never experienced VR. Correct me if I'm wrong... but playing VR games with keyboard and mouse aren't really good. Just explain to me how you're supposed to aim, view and turn around with a VR headset and keyboard mouse.

I correct you ;). I had a Vive (until I broke the base stations and didn't bother to replace it). The headset you use for head movement exclusively, movement with keys, and aiming with the mouse. And the only thing that's really troublesome is the keyboard.

Maybe something like a strap-on version of this would work: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/T9-One-Hand-Hand-Keyboard-One-Hand-Gaming-Keyboard-Single-Hand-Gaming-Keyboard-LED-Backlight-Professional/32705825192.html Probably with less keys, and with the keys braill'ed so you can find them by touch alone.

Quoting: poisond

Quoting: TheSHEEEP

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: TheSHEEEP

Quoting: GuestVR was basically DOA, and until we get proper peripherals for it instead of roomscale and motion controller trash, it will remain DOA.

Absolutely.
A tech gadget for those with enough money. And space, maybe space is even more important for those games with actual motion controls.
Every time a new VR gadget comes out, the "big future" of VR is announced, and yet, it just doesn't spread. I don't know how many more attempts it will take until even the most diehard fans realize VR is not "the future".
There are just too many games that would never work with VR (or gain absolutely no benefit from it), so that there's just no good reason to reach that deep into one's pockets. Not even beginning to talk about all the other downsides (discomfort, clunkiness, etc.).
It will have its niche, and that niche might even grow a bit (certainly enough to house a few VR-exclusive devs), but that's about it.

Personally I think VR can work out, for most games even, we need a middle step, where both keyboard and mouse are fully replaced by some superior peripheral (maybe something like EEG+speech recognition) and then that needs to be further improved to also be the replacement and successor of the (currently shoddy) motion control gimmick.

Yeah, maybe, some day, but I honestly doubt it will happen within the foreseeable future.

Even eye tracking doesn't really do it, because with kb&m I can do multiple things quickly without even looking.
Speech wouldn't help, either, as speaking a command would take longer than doing a few clicks.

I really couldn't think of anything that would be able to reach or improve on the precision offered by mouse & keyboard - short of "reading" one's mind and translating that into input commands.
And that just sounds like extreme scifi to me. Though if that ever happens, count me in ;)

Did you ever try the Vive controllers?
They're pretty precise and you do have two of them so you can even dual-wield(pretty fun in Serious Sam and Skyrim VR). You can aim much faster than with a mouse - just point your controller at the target.
There's touch pads you can use for movement and turning.
And I don't even know what you'd want a keyboard for in a VR game.

Ha, so in Elite: Dangerous I use the keyboard only when needing to search in the Galaxy Map and I usually whip out my phone to look up where I can buy/sell certain things. But otherwise that is one of the most crazy immersive experience (I also have a Saitek x52 Pro that I fly around with).

Quoting: Seegras

Quoting: kuhpunktIt seems like you've never experienced VR. Correct me if I'm wrong... but playing VR games with keyboard and mouse aren't really good. Just explain to me how you're supposed to aim, view and turn around with a VR headset and keyboard mouse.

I correct you ;). I had a Vive (until I broke the base stations and didn't bother to replace it). The headset you use for head movement exclusively, movement with keys, and aiming with the mouse. And the only thing that's really troublesome is the keyboard.

Maybe something like a strap-on version of this would work: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/T9-One-Hand-Hand-Keyboard-One-Hand-Gaming-Keyboard-Single-Hand-Gaming-Keyboard-LED-Backlight-Professional/32705825192.html Probably with less keys, and with the keys braill'ed so you can find them by touch alone.

Most non-crappy/non-laptop keyboards have the little bump on the F and J key, that's how I type when in VR. Granted the only game I've played in VR where it needed some keyboard input is the aforementioned Elite: Dangerous when needing to search the Galaxy Map.

Quoting: slaapliedjeThe nausea issue is different per person for sure. Like I can handle some of the worse offenders (like Windlands where you can shoot out claws like in Bionic Commando and swing from tree to tree) Mostly it's the motion of going forward when your body physically is not that makes people want to spew.

Somebody thought implementing "Segway-Style" controls in CaveQuake (Roomsize) was a good idea. Which actually makes me nauseous. No problem with Vivecraft (keyboard-style motion control) however.

Quoting: ScrollingSquirrelThere are zero issues that can't be solved aside from wearing something on your head

As far as I know, there is: The 3D focal point and the 2D focal point fall apart. (I can look up the optical terms and explanation if needed.)