Reports: Valve making their own VR HMD and apparently a new VR Half-Life

It seems like you've never experienced VR. Correct me if I'm wrong... but playing VR games with keyboard and mouse aren't really good. Just explain to me how you're supposed to aim, view and turn around with a VR headset and keyboard mouse.

I guess you could turn around with your head (games needs to make sure enemies don't come from behind, or have some 180° turning key) and aim with the mouse. You're shown some crosshair. I'm not sure it would feel natural, though, having something in your hand that feels like (parts of) an actual gun would be better.

Yeah, and that doesn't work. I mean VR shooters can work of course. But he claimed that it would work just the same and that you could basically implement VR into any ego shooter. That just doesn't work.

It seems like you've never experienced VR. Correct me if I'm wrong... but playing VR games with keyboard and mouse aren't really good. Just explain to me how you're supposed to aim, view and turn around with a VR headset and keyboard mouse.

I guess you could turn around with your head (games needs to make sure enemies don't come from behind, or have some 180° turning key) and aim with the mouse. You're shown some crosshair. I'm not sure it would feel natural, though, having something in your hand that feels like (parts of) an actual gun would be better.

Yeah, and that doesn't work. I mean VR shooters can work of course. But he claimed that it would work just the same and that you could basically implement VR into any ego shooter. That just doesn't work.

Of course it works. I've played HL2 with KB&mouse on the DK2.
It wasn't anywhere as good as playing with the Vive controllers or even a plain gamepad, but it worked.

It seems like you've never experienced VR. Correct me if I'm wrong... but playing VR games with keyboard and mouse aren't really good. Just explain to me how you're supposed to aim, view and turn around with a VR headset and keyboard mouse.

I guess you could turn around with your head (games needs to make sure enemies don't come from behind, or have some 180° turning key) and aim with the mouse. You're shown some crosshair. I'm not sure it would feel natural, though, having something in your hand that feels like (parts of) an actual gun would be better.

Yeah, and that doesn't work. I mean VR shooters can work of course. But he claimed that it would work just the same and that you could basically implement VR into any ego shooter. That just doesn't work.

Of course it works. I've played HL2 with KB&mouse on the DK2.
It wasn't anywhere as good as playing with the Vive controllers or even a plain gamepad, but it worked.

Yeah, it "worked." But there's still a shit ton of cognitive dissonance. Why else do you think is it that not all FPS have been updated with a VR mode by now? It's been more than 2 years.

VR and AR is the future of gaming.


I remember when appeared the flat monitors that people was saying that never was going to work for gaming... there is no one with CRT monitors nowdays.

You are comparing apples and oranges.
Flat monitors never had any real problems other than price and reaction time to begin with. They were just superior in each other aspect. And that both both price and reaction time would improve was clear from the beginning.
That was the time when tech still improved extremely fast - if you haven't noticed, that time is years gone.
Besides, both are just monitors, used in exactly the same way.
VR is not just the next version of monitors, it is something different.

But VR devices could get as cheap as they want, and as light as they want.
You'll still have to run around with a thing on your head vs having nothing extra on your head. And not being able to see anything around you vs. being able to see all your surroundings. Not everyone wants to get entirely lost in the screen, not by far.
There are just so many issues here that can never be solved and will always make normal monitors superior for everyday use.

Technology evolve and solve the problems, those high prices, resolution, weight, etc... will be solve with next years as in other kind of technology.

You're blindly believing in tech. As someone who actually works in tech, I think that is maximally foolish.
You can not solve problems that can not be solved in theory.
VR's main problems are not in the practical nature, but already the theory, no amount of tech improvement will make them go away.

About motion sickness, seems no one remember the first FPS games that was making motion sickness like doom , etc... But nowdays nobody get motion sickness because your brain is used to it.

That is absolutely not how it works. Except for people who do get general motion sickness from FPS games, nobody ever got motion sick from these games.
This is the same kind of urban myth as delirium furiosum (some people believed you would get dumb from riding in a train in the early 19th century).

But the reality is that in 10 years all of you will be talking about with hmd you bought like now you do about wich video card you or monitor you get.

The funny thing is that 10 years ago (well, 8, Oculus Rift prototype was 2011 afair), people believed the same thing. And where are we now? Exactly.
Let's talk again in 10 years, see if you still think it will be the future in 10 years ;)

I can definitely see it gaining more traction if there will ever be blockbuster VR movies allowing you to actually look around during the movie. But even then I don't see every or even many movies featuring that.


Last edited by TheSHEEEP on 12 Nov 2018 at 1:10 pm UTC

VR and AR is the future of gaming.


About motion sickness, seems no one remember the first FPS games that was making motion sickness like doom , etc... But nowdays nobody get motion sickness because your brain is used to it.

That is absolutely not how it works. Except for people who do get general motion sickness from FPS games, nobody ever got motion sick from these games.
This is the same kind of urban myth as delirium furiosum (some people believed you would get dumb from riding in a train in the early 19th century).

In fact, I'm one of those people whose brains "never got used to it". Back in the CRT days, I used to love the Half-Life games. Played them a lot, especially 2. But when flatscreen monitors came out, I found myself getting tremendously queasy after about a half-hour of play and that feeling would hang on for a couple of hours. I didn't know anything about others having similar problems until much later, just that I couldn't play, or even watch, those games at all. It wasn't until after I found the same problem with the Metro games that I found out about Simulation Sickness.

Which is the reason game companies put FoV sliders on games. Why Croteam has an entire menu dedicated to things like that, head bob, blur and so forth which can exacerbate the problems.

Awful lot of trouble to go to when nobody ever got sick from them, though. Maybe they should stop.

VR and AR is the future of gaming.


Same laughings 25 years ago when i was saying 3D was the future of gaming.

Just check the history of Sega and Sony, one tought the future was 3D gaming and other not... guess who won.

Seems John Carmack saw 3D was the future and now is VR. Like or hate it, but its the future.


Last edited by bubexel on 12 Nov 2018 at 1:55 pm UTC

And not being able to see anything around you vs. being able to see all your surroundings. Not everyone wants to get entirely lost in the screen, not by far.

...

Well, that's the whole point of VR - immersion. You do not want to see your surroundings in VR.

The Vive still has a camera so you can get an overlay view if you want a sip from your drink.

VR was basically DOA, and until we get proper peripherals for it instead of roomscale and motion controller trash, it will remain DOA.

Absolutely.
A tech gadget for those with enough money. And space, maybe space is even more important for those games with actual motion controls.
Every time a new VR gadget comes out, the "big future" of VR is announced, and yet, it just doesn't spread. I don't know how many more attempts it will take until even the most diehard fans realize VR is not "the future".
There are just too many games that would never work with VR (or gain absolutely no benefit from it), so that there's just no good reason to reach that deep into one's pockets. Not even beginning to talk about all the other downsides (discomfort, clunkiness, etc.).
It will have its niche, and that niche might even grow a bit (certainly enough to house a few VR-exclusive devs), but that's about it.

Personally I think VR can work out, for most games even, we need a middle step, where both keyboard and mouse are fully replaced by some superior peripheral (maybe something like EEG+speech recognition) and then that needs to be further improved to also be the replacement and successor of the (currently shoddy) motion control gimmick.

Yeah, maybe, some day, but I honestly doubt it will happen within the foreseeable future.

Even eye tracking doesn't really do it, because with kb&m I can do multiple things quickly without even looking.
Speech wouldn't help, either, as speaking a command would take longer than doing a few clicks.

I really couldn't think of anything that would be able to reach or improve on the precision offered by mouse & keyboard - short of "reading" one's mind and translating that into input commands.
And that just sounds like extreme scifi to me. Though if that ever happens, count me in ;)

Did you ever try the Vive controllers?
They're pretty precise and you do have two of them so you can even dual-wield(pretty fun in Serious Sam and Skyrim VR). You can aim much faster than with a mouse - just point your controller at the target.
There's touch pads you can use for movement and turning.
And I don't even know what you'd want a keyboard for in a VR game.

VR and AR is the future of gaming.


I remember when appeared the flat monitors that people was saying that never was going to work for gaming... there is no one with CRT monitors nowdays.

You are comparing apples and oranges.
Flat monitors never had any real problems other than price and reaction time to begin with. They were just superior in each other aspect. And that both both price and reaction time would improve was clear from the beginning.
That was the time when tech still improved extremely fast - if you haven't noticed, that time is years gone.
Besides, both are just monitors, used in exactly the same way.
VR is not just the next version of monitors, it is something different.

But VR devices could get as cheap as they want, and as light as they want.
You'll still have to run around with a thing on your head vs having nothing extra on your head. And not being able to see anything around you vs. being able to see all your surroundings. Not everyone wants to get entirely lost in the screen, not by far.
There are just so many issues here that can never be solved and will always make normal monitors superior for everyday use.

Technology evolve and solve the problems, those high prices, resolution, weight, etc... will be solve with next years as in other kind of technology.

You're blindly believing in tech. As someone who actually works in tech, I think that is maximally foolish.
You can not solve problems that can not be solved in theory.
VR's main problems are not in the practical nature, but already the theory, no amount of tech improvement will make them go away.

About motion sickness, seems no one remember the first FPS games that was making motion sickness like doom , etc... But nowdays nobody get motion sickness because your brain is used to it.

That is absolutely not how it works. Except for people who do get general motion sickness from FPS games, nobody ever got motion sick from these games.
This is the same kind of urban myth as delirium furiosum (some people believed you would get dumb from riding in a train in the early 19th century).

But the reality is that in 10 years all of you will be talking about with hmd you bought like now you do about wich video card you or monitor you get.

The funny thing is that 10 years ago (well, 8, Oculus Rift prototype was 2011 afair), people believed the same thing. And where are we now? Exactly.
Let's talk again in 10 years, see if you still think it will be the future in 10 years ;)

I can definitely see it gaining more traction if there will ever be blockbuster VR movies allowing you to actually look around during the movie. But even then I don't see every or even many movies featuring that.

VR is the next version of monitors. This is why people call VR the final computing platform because you can simulate infinite amounts of perfect monitor setups or have screens that you can never own in real life.

VR would also let you see your surroundings just fine when you have the headset scanning real life and having full AR capabilities later on would only make this more useful.

There are zero issues that can't be solved aside from wearing something on your head which won't even be an issue when it's just a pair of glasses as well as motion sickness which GVS may or may not fix, and even if it doesn't you won't get sick if your movement is your own, which it would be if you are just simulating screens.

You might work in tech but you don't work in VR so you have nothing to go off on what can be solved and what cannot.

And does it really matter what people said 8 years ago? People always make wild acusations about technology, but if we listen to everyone in the VR industry, we know that they never envisioned anything taking off until the 2020s.


Last edited by ScrollingSquirrel on 12 Nov 2018 at 5:18 pm UTC

You can aim much faster than with a mouse - just point your controller at the target.
There's touch pads you can use for movement and turning.
And I don't even know what you'd want a keyboard for in a VR game.

A mouse is faster for aiming. You just have to slightly move it to turn around and all that stuff.

VR was basically DOA, and until we get proper peripherals for it instead of roomscale and motion controller trash, it will remain DOA.

Absolutely.
A tech gadget for those with enough money. And space, maybe space is even more important for those games with actual motion controls.
Every time a new VR gadget comes out, the "big future" of VR is announced, and yet, it just doesn't spread. I don't know how many more attempts it will take until even the most diehard fans realize VR is not "the future".
There are just too many games that would never work with VR (or gain absolutely no benefit from it), so that there's just no good reason to reach that deep into one's pockets. Not even beginning to talk about all the other downsides (discomfort, clunkiness, etc.).
It will have its niche, and that niche might even grow a bit (certainly enough to house a few VR-exclusive devs), but that's about it.

Personally I think VR can work out, for most games even, we need a middle step, where both keyboard and mouse are fully replaced by some superior peripheral (maybe something like EEG+speech recognition) and then that needs to be further improved to also be the replacement and successor of the (currently shoddy) motion control gimmick.

Yeah, maybe, some day, but I honestly doubt it will happen within the foreseeable future.

Even eye tracking doesn't really do it, because with kb&m I can do multiple things quickly without even looking.
Speech wouldn't help, either, as speaking a command would take longer than doing a few clicks.

I really couldn't think of anything that would be able to reach or improve on the precision offered by mouse & keyboard - short of "reading" one's mind and translating that into input commands.
And that just sounds like extreme scifi to me. Though if that ever happens, count me in ;)

Did you ever try the Vive controllers?
They're pretty precise and you do have two of them so you can even dual-wield(pretty fun in Serious Sam and Skyrim VR). You can aim much faster than with a mouse - just point your controller at the target.
There's touch pads you can use for movement and turning.
And I don't even know what you'd want a keyboard for in a VR game.

It's extremely important that people know that VR can let all of your surroundings in with newer tech because this is one point people see as unfixable. People like TheSHEEEP haven't thought of any solution and make the assumption that therefore, it can never happen. Well it turns out it has been publically demonstrated and will become a core part of VR throughout the 2020s. Isolation is never going to be a problem unless you want it to be, which is how it should be - choice.

In fact, I'm one of those people whose brains "never got used to it". Back in the CRT days, I used to love the Half-Life games. Played them a lot, especially 2. But when flatscreen monitors came out, I found myself getting tremendously queasy after about a half-hour of play and that feeling would hang on for a couple of hours.

Mmm, if that's just CRT vs Flat screen, maybe you should try investing in a low persistence display? It's usually branded as "lightboost" or something alike ("motion blur reduction", and maybe those branded with a 1ms response time), and is basically a strobing backlight. Throw in some adaptative sync support for good measure, and higher framerates.

I'm myself pondering about whether to change my aging (10 years) display, as it starts to "display" signs of failure (flashing backlight when at 40%+).

Incidentally, most of those VR headsets have low persistence, high framerate displays. I would like to experiment with fully immersive 3D "desktop environments" when/if I get one.

You can aim much faster than with a mouse - just point your controller at the target.
There's touch pads you can use for movement and turning.
And I don't even know what you'd want a keyboard for in a VR game.

A mouse is faster for aiming. You just have to slightly move it to turn around and all that stuff.

Yeah, but that makes it harder to look at your surroundings while aiming. So, trade-offs. Modern combat aircraft pilots aim with their headset, while piloting with their hands.


Last edited by MayeulC on 12 Nov 2018 at 5:44 pm UTC

In fact, I'm one of those people whose brains "never got used to it". Back in the CRT days, I used to love the Half-Life games. Played them a lot, especially 2. But when flatscreen monitors came out, I found myself getting tremendously queasy after about a half-hour of play and that feeling would hang on for a couple of hours.

Mmm, if that's just CRT vs Flat screen, maybe you should try investing in a low persistence display? It's usually branded as "lightboost" or something alike ("motion blur reduction", and maybe those branded with a 1ms response time), and is basically a strobing backlight. Throw in some adaptative sync support for good measure, and higher framerates.

I'm myself pondering about whether to change my aging (10 years) display, as it starts to "display" signs of failure (flashing backlight when at 40%+).

Incidentally, most of those VR headsets have low persistence, high framerate displays. I would like to experiment with fully immersive 3D "desktop environments" when/if I get one.

In the case of monitors, it's a widescreen issue. On old CRT monitors which weren't as wide typically, FoV wasn't a big issue. But on widescreen monitors it is, as the video below illustrates.

https://youtu.be/blZUao2jTGA

Now I haven't researched nausea on VR so I don't know the causes involved (presumably not quite the same as FoV), but I do know there have been a significant number of reports and it's something that VR makers have to overcome if it's going to become ubiquitous like some folks here think it will. Plus you have to overcome the hesitation on the part of people who are nausea-prone who don't want to spend all that money to take their chances and maybe end up sick anyway.

VR was basically DOA, and until we get proper peripherals for it instead of roomscale and motion controller trash, it will remain DOA.

VR is amazing. Seriously amazing. I don't know how you can say roomscale is trash. The controllers work well enough for a first iteration on the Vive (been waiting for Knuckles forever).

Unless you've tried some of the amazing things that VR can already do, you are talking out of your ass.

Cost is probably the only real prohibitive thing, and the cost is always going to go down.

In fact, I'm one of those people whose brains "never got used to it". Back in the CRT days, I used to love the Half-Life games. Played them a lot, especially 2. But when flatscreen monitors came out, I found myself getting tremendously queasy after about a half-hour of play and that feeling would hang on for a couple of hours.

Mmm, if that's just CRT vs Flat screen, maybe you should try investing in a low persistence display? It's usually branded as "lightboost" or something alike ("motion blur reduction", and maybe those branded with a 1ms response time), and is basically a strobing backlight. Throw in some adaptative sync support for good measure, and higher framerates.

I'm myself pondering about whether to change my aging (10 years) display, as it starts to "display" signs of failure (flashing backlight when at 40%+).

Incidentally, most of those VR headsets have low persistence, high framerate displays. I would like to experiment with fully immersive 3D "desktop environments" when/if I get one.

In the case of monitors, it's a widescreen issue. On old CRT monitors which weren't as wide typically, FoV wasn't a big issue. But on widescreen monitors it is, as the video below illustrates.

https://youtu.be/blZUao2jTGA

Now I haven't researched nausea on VR so I don't know the causes involved (presumably not quite the same as FoV), but I do know there have been a significant number of reports and it's something that VR makers have to overcome if it's going to become ubiquitous like some folks here think it will. Plus you have to overcome the hesitation on the part of people who are nausea-prone who don't want to spend all that money to take their chances and maybe end up sick anyway.

The nausea issue is different per person for sure. Like I can handle some of the worse offenders (like Windlands where you can shoot out claws like in Bionic Commando and swing from tree to tree) Mostly it's the motion of going forward when your body physically is not that makes people want to spew. But there are mods out there (like one that lets you move around by swinging your arms, so your body feels it is more natural).

I've had a Vive since the original pre-orders were shipped, and now have a Vive Pro. Wondering what this new Valve one will have that makes it awesome.

Also, I'm pretty sure I saw Fallout 76 on Steam? So is Bethesda dropping off of Steam?

It seems like you've never experienced VR. Correct me if I'm wrong... but playing VR games with keyboard and mouse aren't really good. Just explain to me how you're supposed to aim, view and turn around with a VR headset and keyboard mouse.

I correct you ;). I had a Vive (until I broke the base stations and didn't bother to replace it). The headset you use for head movement exclusively, movement with keys, and aiming with the mouse. And the only thing that's really troublesome is the keyboard.

Maybe something like a strap-on version of this would work: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/T9-One-Hand-Hand-Keyboard-One-Hand-Gaming-Keyboard-Single-Hand-Gaming-Keyboard-LED-Backlight-Professional/32705825192.html Probably with less keys, and with the keys braill'ed so you can find them by touch alone.

VR was basically DOA, and until we get proper peripherals for it instead of roomscale and motion controller trash, it will remain DOA.

Absolutely.
A tech gadget for those with enough money. And space, maybe space is even more important for those games with actual motion controls.
Every time a new VR gadget comes out, the "big future" of VR is announced, and yet, it just doesn't spread. I don't know how many more attempts it will take until even the most diehard fans realize VR is not "the future".
There are just too many games that would never work with VR (or gain absolutely no benefit from it), so that there's just no good reason to reach that deep into one's pockets. Not even beginning to talk about all the other downsides (discomfort, clunkiness, etc.).
It will have its niche, and that niche might even grow a bit (certainly enough to house a few VR-exclusive devs), but that's about it.

Personally I think VR can work out, for most games even, we need a middle step, where both keyboard and mouse are fully replaced by some superior peripheral (maybe something like EEG+speech recognition) and then that needs to be further improved to also be the replacement and successor of the (currently shoddy) motion control gimmick.

Yeah, maybe, some day, but I honestly doubt it will happen within the foreseeable future.

Even eye tracking doesn't really do it, because with kb&m I can do multiple things quickly without even looking.
Speech wouldn't help, either, as speaking a command would take longer than doing a few clicks.

I really couldn't think of anything that would be able to reach or improve on the precision offered by mouse & keyboard - short of "reading" one's mind and translating that into input commands.
And that just sounds like extreme scifi to me. Though if that ever happens, count me in ;)

Did you ever try the Vive controllers?
They're pretty precise and you do have two of them so you can even dual-wield(pretty fun in Serious Sam and Skyrim VR). You can aim much faster than with a mouse - just point your controller at the target.
There's touch pads you can use for movement and turning.
And I don't even know what you'd want a keyboard for in a VR game.

Ha, so in Elite: Dangerous I use the keyboard only when needing to search in the Galaxy Map and I usually whip out my phone to look up where I can buy/sell certain things. But otherwise that is one of the most crazy immersive experience (I also have a Saitek x52 Pro that I fly around with).

It seems like you've never experienced VR. Correct me if I'm wrong... but playing VR games with keyboard and mouse aren't really good. Just explain to me how you're supposed to aim, view and turn around with a VR headset and keyboard mouse.

I correct you ;). I had a Vive (until I broke the base stations and didn't bother to replace it). The headset you use for head movement exclusively, movement with keys, and aiming with the mouse. And the only thing that's really troublesome is the keyboard.

Maybe something like a strap-on version of this would work: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/T9-One-Hand-Hand-Keyboard-One-Hand-Gaming-Keyboard-Single-Hand-Gaming-Keyboard-LED-Backlight-Professional/32705825192.html Probably with less keys, and with the keys braill'ed so you can find them by touch alone.

Most non-crappy/non-laptop keyboards have the little bump on the F and J key, that's how I type when in VR. Granted the only game I've played in VR where it needed some keyboard input is the aforementioned Elite: Dangerous when needing to search the Galaxy Map.

The nausea issue is different per person for sure. Like I can handle some of the worse offenders (like Windlands where you can shoot out claws like in Bionic Commando and swing from tree to tree) Mostly it's the motion of going forward when your body physically is not that makes people want to spew.

Somebody thought implementing "Segway-Style" controls in CaveQuake (Roomsize) was a good idea. Which actually makes me nauseous. No problem with Vivecraft (keyboard-style motion control) however.

There are zero issues that can't be solved aside from wearing something on your head

As far as I know, there is: The 3D focal point and the 2D focal point fall apart. (I can look up the optical terms and explanation if needed.)