Despite it still sounding a long way off, the Atari VCS console which will have a Linux-based OS along with the ability to boot another normal Linux distribution is coming along.
As a reminder, what was originally called the Ataribox was renamed the Atari VCS and eventually made it onto IndieGoGo where it raised a little over three million in funding.
In their latest post on Medium, they put out some thoughts from Rob Wyatt, the System Architect for the Atari VCS who previously worked on the Xbox, DirectX, Insomniac Games and more.
The post contains his thoughts on what they're currently doing with the system and some of it's quite interesting. It doesn't really sound like you're going to be able to install Ubuntu or anything directly onto it. Instead, it seems like it will need you to run things from a USB drive:
Something along the lines of: if you plug in a bootable external USB drive our hypervisor will boot from it, otherwise it will boot the internal Atari OS. This keeps both OS’s completely separate and makes supporting multiple OS’s really easy, there is no risk of the internal storage getting corrupted by the other OS.
They will eventually release example code showing exactly how to do this. To get to that stage though, they need to finish their own Atari VCS Linux distribution.
The post goes on to detail how they will support as many "standard APIs" as they can, including OpenGL and Vulkan. However, their actual work still seems quite early on, they even said it's rather "crude" right now. Their current aim, is to get all the Atari stuff to take up no more than 1GB of storage leaving the rest for users. However, they do have audio working via ALSA and apparently OpenGL and Vulkan rendering is already working.
At the end of the post, was this teaser:
What’s next? We want to announce a Linux open source project and encourage our backers, fans and interested parties to help us with something that will actually be part of the Atari VCS operating system. More on that soon.
I wonder what they're up to? Could be interesting. Will keep an eye on it.
I still have a lot of reservations about the Atari VCS but I'm keeping an open mind about it. If it's a hit, that's good for us since to be on it the game would need to support open standards and be little work to get on Ubuntu and other distributions. It's also nice to see them post so openly about what they're doing.
Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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The comments on this article are closed.
But if a seperate OS has to be booted from like an USB drive... will you still get access to the VCS internal storage? Like if you try to use SteamOS and it would have to get all the game data through USB, that's not great.
Not expecting much, but I wish them luck.
Not expecting much, but I wish them luck.
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QuoteSomething along the lines of: if you plug in a bootable external USB drive our hypervisor will boot from it, otherwise it will boot the internal Atari OS.LOL. If I interpret it correctly - hypervisor means that "other OS" will be started as VM in KVM/Xen hypervisor. It means no real GPU acceleration in VM. Even closed source solutions like VMware do not provide good GPU acceleration in VM - max. DirectX10/OpenGL. As today only GPU passthrough is the best GPU solution for VM, but... it require very expensive corporate edition of GPU (for example nVidia Quadro) or separate consumer GPU.
In my opinion - it doesn't make sense. Why?! Because "Atari OS" has to be protected?! Against who?! Crackers (if interested anyway in niche console) probably will crack their "lock-in" very easily.
Last edited by danniello on 22 November 2018 at 8:55 pm UTC
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Quoting: kuhpunktLike if you try to use SteamOS and it would have to get all the game data through USB, that's not great.If it is USB 3 that shouldn't be a problem.
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TheLinuxPleb Nov 22, 2018
Quoting: TobiSGDDepends on the USB. USB is not really designed to be running OS. It usually works quite bad from my experience.Quoting: kuhpunktLike if you try to use SteamOS and it would have to get all the game data through USB, that's not great.If it is USB 3 that shouldn't be a problem.
To me it seems dumb.
I really don't get the need to protect the internal storage? Rather just make a warranty void if OS swapped. Make a physical fuse to pop if OS changed and make it not affect the machine, just make it to see if the internal storage has been tampered. Simple as that. USB for OS is not a good idea.
I really don't expect anything from this device, but maybe for the right price it could be a decent product? I truly doubt it though.
E: Saw the price. Yeah... Not worth it.
Last edited by TheLinuxPleb on 22 November 2018 at 10:45 pm UTC
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Quoting: dannielloNot necessarily. They said it will boot either of the two OSes and that's different from booting the main OS, and then booting the other OS inside. If Atari OS is not even loaded then all the hardwares, including the GPU, will be available directly to the guest OS to use and you should get native performance.QuoteSomething along the lines of: if you plug in a bootable external USB drive our hypervisor will boot from it, otherwise it will boot the internal Atari OS.LOL. If I interpret it correctly - hypervisor means that "other OS" will be started as VM in KVM/Xen hypervisor. It means no real GPU acceleration in VM.
However, for me I prefer the path Steam Machines took, which is a very open standard Linux distro with Steam Client on top of it. That is more attractive for Linux users than a closed system that is compatible with Linux APIs. Also, with Proton Steam Machines become way more attractive. I wish AtariVCS all the success nonetheless.
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Quoting: dannielloWoah woah woah there. I don't think you understand how this can work. First off, you can do pass through with a single GPU. All it means is the hypervisor can't draw to the screen only the guest can. Why does that matter for this? It doesn't. Second are you aware the Xbox One also does the same thing? It uses a hypervisor with either Xbox OS or Windows 10 as the guest depending on if you load an Xbox game or a UWP app. You don't need expensive enterprise GPUs or even 2 consumer GPUs. You just make the hypervisor headless. As for why they do it who knows but I could take a guess that it makes supporting multiple OSes easier. The hardware doesn't need to be quite as standard since the hypervisor will abstract it but that's just a theory.QuoteSomething along the lines of: if you plug in a bootable external USB drive our hypervisor will boot from it, otherwise it will boot the internal Atari OS.LOL. If I interpret it correctly - hypervisor means that "other OS" will be started as VM in KVM/Xen hypervisor. It means no real GPU acceleration in VM. Even closed source solutions like VMware do not provide good GPU acceleration in VM - max. DirectX10/OpenGL. As today only GPU passthrough is the best GPU solution for VM, but... it require very expensive corporate edition of GPU (for example nVidia Quadro) or separate consumer GPU.
In my opinion - it doesn't make sense. Why?! Because "Atari OS" has to be protected?! Against who?! Crackers (if interested anyway in niche console) probably will crack their "lock-in" very easily.
Last edited by Scoopta on 22 November 2018 at 11:17 pm UTC
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Quoting: ScooptaAll it means is the hypervisor can't draw to the screen only the guest can.True. You are absolutely right. I didn't thought about headless hypervisor possibility.
Never the less - it is not good idea to prepare "locked-in" internal OS only to protect some silly old Atari games...
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Why do this? They are complicating something that does not need to be complicated. They just need to ship a normal linux distribution with a gaming UI like Lakka or Retrobox and put some good games on it.
Why spend money on stuff like that?
And why it would not come with OpenGL and Vulkan? Just put Mesa on it and it will work and receive updates with no problems.
Linux already have a lot of things to help then. They dont need to reinvent the wheel with stuff like that, when they shoukd focus on launching their product
Why spend money on stuff like that?
And why it would not come with OpenGL and Vulkan? Just put Mesa on it and it will work and receive updates with no problems.
Linux already have a lot of things to help then. They dont need to reinvent the wheel with stuff like that, when they shoukd focus on launching their product
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slaapliedje Nov 23, 2018
I kind of hope they basically just make it a skinned SteamOS/big picture setup and work with Valve on it.
No sense reinventing the keyboard wheel...
No sense reinventing the keyboard wheel...
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i like the idea of the hypervisor, but i still think its an scam.
even if its not, sony will announce ps5 soon, microsoft may already be planing the next xbox and switch just launched, i'm afraid there is no rom for this thing, even if it have, it will not bring many new gamers to the table, we will have the ones who already play on ¹linux + the ²atari fans
¹(wich means we will not receive new games because the install base was not increassed and we will waste money on hardware wich have an cost per unit, instead of games)
²(there arent many anyway)
i think the Intellivision new console has an better proposal than this thing, at least its unique.
even if its not, sony will announce ps5 soon, microsoft may already be planing the next xbox and switch just launched, i'm afraid there is no rom for this thing, even if it have, it will not bring many new gamers to the table, we will have the ones who already play on ¹linux + the ²atari fans
¹(wich means we will not receive new games because the install base was not increassed and we will waste money on hardware wich have an cost per unit, instead of games)
²(there arent many anyway)
i think the Intellivision new console has an better proposal than this thing, at least its unique.
0 Likes
Quoting: elmapuli like the idea of the hypervisor, but i still think its an scam.While the PS5 and so on will continue pushing their AAA graphical realism powerhouse approaches, Nintendo released their classic consoles which sold like mad - seems to me there's still a market for this sort of thing.
even if its not, sony will announce ps5 soon, microsoft may already be planing the next xbox and switch just launched, i'm afraid there is no rom for this thing, even if it have, it will not bring many new gamers to the table, we will have the ones who already play on ¹linux + the ²atari fans
¹(wich means we will not receive new games because the install base was not increassed and we will waste money on hardware wich have an cost per unit, instead of games)
²(there arent many anyway)
i think the Intellivision new console has an better proposal than this thing, at least its unique.
2 Likes, Who?
Personally I can see why they'd set up the design in the manner that they've chosen, and I must say it sounds much more sane than other ways to do it.
To start off, they require a hypervisor, this is not up for debate. Console developers are very good at writing games that can utilize every little mote of performance in the hardware, they're generally much worse at writing things that are secure while doing so.
I mean, just look at the number of games that can be used to completely take over a console or even do much worse things.
The hypervisor is not there to make running open source software hard, it's to protect the console from the console games, and also vice-versa protect the console games from the console.
Additionally, being able to tell the game developers that their other OS feature can't be used to facilitate cheating means said developers will be happier about bringing multiplayer games to the console.
And considering what's said in those entries about the boot, they're planning a bootloader that will automatically boot from any bootable USB drive. Which means the VCS will act basically like a Raspberry Pi with the usb_boot_mode flag set. This is a massive thing, and while I'd love to be able to switch OS without having to insert/remove a USB key, it sounds like a really nice and both simple as well as safe way to do the OS switching.
(Notice how they explicitly talk about not wanting to run the other OS under their hypervisor, simply to keep said hypervisor simple and safe)
From how they're talking, you'll likely also be able to access part of the internal storage from said booted system as well, though it's basically guaranteed that they'll put in some kind of read/write protect over their system in that case - if only to make sure that someone doesn't accidentally brick the console.
Of course, even if they decide to completely wall of the internal storage it won't be impossible to hook up a larger USB drive - or simply boot the device / mount root off of iSCSI or some other network based storage. While IO speed might suffer, with USB 3.1 you can't really complain all that much, 5-10gbit is a lot of bandwidth after all.
Last edited by Ananace on 23 November 2018 at 12:14 pm UTC
To start off, they require a hypervisor, this is not up for debate. Console developers are very good at writing games that can utilize every little mote of performance in the hardware, they're generally much worse at writing things that are secure while doing so.
I mean, just look at the number of games that can be used to completely take over a console or even do much worse things.
The hypervisor is not there to make running open source software hard, it's to protect the console from the console games, and also vice-versa protect the console games from the console.
Additionally, being able to tell the game developers that their other OS feature can't be used to facilitate cheating means said developers will be happier about bringing multiplayer games to the console.
And considering what's said in those entries about the boot, they're planning a bootloader that will automatically boot from any bootable USB drive. Which means the VCS will act basically like a Raspberry Pi with the usb_boot_mode flag set. This is a massive thing, and while I'd love to be able to switch OS without having to insert/remove a USB key, it sounds like a really nice and both simple as well as safe way to do the OS switching.
(Notice how they explicitly talk about not wanting to run the other OS under their hypervisor, simply to keep said hypervisor simple and safe)
From how they're talking, you'll likely also be able to access part of the internal storage from said booted system as well, though it's basically guaranteed that they'll put in some kind of read/write protect over their system in that case - if only to make sure that someone doesn't accidentally brick the console.
Of course, even if they decide to completely wall of the internal storage it won't be impossible to hook up a larger USB drive - or simply boot the device / mount root off of iSCSI or some other network based storage. While IO speed might suffer, with USB 3.1 you can't really complain all that much, 5-10gbit is a lot of bandwidth after all.
Last edited by Ananace on 23 November 2018 at 12:14 pm UTC
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Quoting: liamdaweWhile the PS5 and so on will continue pushing their AAA graphical realism powerhouse approaches, Nintendo released their classic consoles which sold like mad - seems to me there's still a market for this sort of thing.
Switch is seling because:
1)its fucking PORTABLE
2)it has Nintendo exclusives, Nintendo was not dead in the last 30 years, they were relasing sucessfull games every generation, they were sucessfull to port mario to 3D (unlike many others) and they keep making mario 2D games, they were sucessfull with many other exclusive franchises, either new ones or continuing to make old ones.
why would anyone sane buy this thing instead?
unless they are an blind linux fanboy or atari fanboy?
Last edited by elmapul on 23 November 2018 at 2:47 pm UTC
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Quoting: elmapulI said nothing about the Switch, I said classic consoles. I mean the NES/SNES mini consoles, even Sony are doing a classic PlayStation.Quoting: liamdaweWhile the PS5 and so on will continue pushing their AAA graphical realism powerhouse approaches, Nintendo released their classic consoles which sold like mad - seems to me there's still a market for this sort of thing.
Switch is seling because:
1)its fucking PORTABLE
2)it has Nintendo exclusives, Nintendo was not dead in the last 30 years, they were relasing sucessfull games every generation, they were sucessfull to port mario to 3D (unlike many others) and they keep making mario 2D games, they were sucessfull with many other exclusive franchises, either new ones or continuing to make old ones.
why would anyone sane buy this thing instead?
unless they are an blind linux fanboy or atari fanboy?
Why would anyone buy this? They had enough people excited to gain well over 11K backers on IndieGoGo, don't underestimate hype for such devices.
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Hardware that hardly anyone needs, from a company hardly anyone care anymore and could hardly add anything for everybody's interest. From what i read here, they will take advantage of open source without giving back, and they are literally asking for free help on their closed software and hardware. They are a company of the past, and demonstrate yet once again misinterpreting open source. Some strategy like this could spark little to none interest in the past when hardly any company would embrace linux. Nowadays big companies are spending big money to boost the platform for everyone else. Time is shifting, and this atari thing look like cancer, not innovation IMHO.
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Quoting: sketchHardware that hardly anyone needs, from a company hardly anyone care anymore and could hardly add anything for everybody's interest. From what i read here, they will take advantage of open source without giving back, and they are literally asking for free help on their closed software and hardware. They are a company of the past, and demonstrate yet once again misinterpreting open source. Some strategy like this could spark little to none interest in the past when hardly any company would embrace linux. Nowadays big companies are spending big money to boost the platform for everyone else. Time is shifting, and this atari thing look like cancer, not innovation IMHO.
I see you have the impression that they are the same ATARI that produced those classic consoles from the 80s and 90s. They're not.
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Quoting: liamdaweI said nothing about the Switch, I said classic consoles. I mean the NES/SNES mini consoles, even Sony are doing a classic PlayStation.
Why would anyone buy this? They had enough people excited to gain well over 11K backers on IndieGoGo, don't underestimate hype for such devices.
ok sorry, i saw Nintendo and assume it was switch.
in any case, nes and snes classic sold like 2 millions of units, its a lot but you get 20 games for 60~80 U$D, and those are "legendary" games.
the ammount of people who are nostalgic about atari is much lower than the ones nostalgic about nes or snes.
yes atari vcs will come with "100" games but that is atari vault that you can already buy atari vault in any platform.
"Why would anyone buy this? They had enough people excited to gain well over 11K backers on IndieGoGo"
again, you are missing a thing.
11K is not enough to increasse our marketshare, ouya sold much more than this and still was an flop.
11k is not enough to justify an port to it (much less making an exclusive), unless you were an indie and had an guarantee that everyone you purchased this would purchase your game.
just to make an comparission, GTA sold 100 millions of copies, minecraft over 50 millions most triple A games sell at least 1 million of copies and that because they are on platforms that have an install base of > dozens of million, hundreds of millions or in the windows case 1.5 billions of users.
even linux having 1~2% of marketshare, may have 15 millions of users, and even then we only got an small ammount of triple A ports.
nothing against indies, but we definitelly need more triple A's, and its not selling dozens of thousands of atari vcs units that we will get more.
ok, it will sell more after launch, but not much more costing almost the price of an PS4, launching after or togheter with an ps5.
either we sell millions and quickly increase our marketshare, or we are just wasting money on hardware instead of software (and principally free software, i'm tired of seing projects like make human/manuel bastioni dying)
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Quoting: wytrabbitI see you have the impression that they are the same ATARI that produced those classic consoles from the 80s and 90s. They're not.
NOT EVEN THAT, what's this all about? Nostalgia and linux exploitation? :D sincerely asking!
Last edited by sketch on 23 November 2018 at 6:54 pm UTC
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I just read the medium article and I saw two things that are a bit concerning. Both are things that will make porting to PC Linux from the VCS more difficult depending on the dev. The first is the fact that they might use an Atari custom audio library. It will use an ALSA backend and I'm sure devs can still use ALSA directly but they might not which would potentially tie them to the VCS. Not to mention lack of pulse isn't great IMO either. The far more concerning thing is the fact that while it will have OpenGL and Vulkan they also mention it will have hardware command buffer rendering which is something impossible in the PC world due to the wide variety of hardware. If games use that then porting from the VCS is just as hard as any normal console. I'm sure not a lot of games will use that since I assume that'll only be used by devs where even Vulkan has too much overhead but it is a possibility.
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Quoting: liamdaweNintendo's classic consoles were $60 - cheap novelties (not to mention manufactured scarcity, which drove collectors batty). This thing is priced like a full console. It may find a niche among hardcore collectors and tinkerers, but I don't see it making any impact on mainstream gaming without some knockout exclusives. Like, Nintendo quality exclusives. We'll see what, if anything, they have planned in that regard further down the line, but, frankly, I'm quite skeptical.Quoting: elmapuli like the idea of the hypervisor, but i still think its an scam.While the PS5 and so on will continue pushing their AAA graphical realism powerhouse approaches, Nintendo released their classic consoles which sold like mad - seems to me there's still a market for this sort of thing.
even if its not, sony will announce ps5 soon, microsoft may already be planing the next xbox and switch just launched, i'm afraid there is no rom for this thing, even if it have, it will not bring many new gamers to the table, we will have the ones who already play on ¹linux + the ²atari fans
¹(wich means we will not receive new games because the install base was not increassed and we will waste money on hardware wich have an cost per unit, instead of games)
²(there arent many anyway)
i think the Intellivision new console has an better proposal than this thing, at least its unique.
1 Likes, Who?
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