Another Steam Client Beta is out, adds the ability to force Steam Play

developers dont have to recognize linux as a platform! GAMERS HAVE!
as i said: first market share, then developers

Exactly what IBM thought back in the day, and that move was the end of Big Blue on personal computing space for good.
You seem to dismiss developers' impact on a platform... you are probably too young to remember the "developers, developers, developers" chant from Ballmer back in 2000 too. It was cringy and meme-worthy, but he was right.

what do you think? what would be the alternative?

As Linus himself said, probably something akin to Chromebooks and Android, but sorry I don't have the definitive answer to that question.

i still think you cant compare now and then.
the fact that we can talk over the internet changes so many factors

maybe it wasnt the time for another OS back then. very few ppl had a PC and they were happy with what they had, software was hard to get, a lack of information about new software

today everyone has internet, everyone can download linux in no time, PCs are very cheap and everybody has one or more, even mainstream talks about linux

just look at all the software for linux. even fucking MICROSOFT skype has a linux client.... not just 1..... 3!!!!! DEB, RPM and SNAP

it is just not the same

i just dont think, that linux ports will die, because some developers have passion and they want to improve themselves
just look at DOOM2016. ID software ported the game to linux for fun (who knows why it wasnt released)
and i am pretty sure a lot of indie games will still get a port even if they dont need one because of proton

after 6 years valve tries another strategy and i think it is a good one. and again: you cant compare it with something decades ago

Sadly, though, current trend is to make the client irrelevant. Sure, consumers are stubborn, but just look at how much "simple things" have changed over the last decade (60% of that time Steam has been available on our beloved platform, mind you), in terms of people preferences simply due to the "easier" and more 'convenient' offers from music streaming services, to a myriad of video streaming services with fully fledged multimillion dollar productions, to 'storage'... computing and soon gaming. The good thing, though, is that many prefer to have physical evidence, and hence some clinge to physical copies of movies, music, books and even their data, alas the great majority prefer the more convenient solutions on their flaming new thin clients.

I would LOVE for things not to be that way, but that's where the whole IT and entertainment industries are heading, gaming included, and while on the other side of the pipe Linux is the 800 pund Gorilla ruling over the server OSes, as the client is rendered meaningless, as is the host OS... I'm not sure what can we expect in the next 5 years.

In the short run Proton is getting us more games, but in the long run it is encouraging developers to not even recognize Linux as a platform: they will keep writing software for Windows, they will still not support Linux, and they will have one less reason to even consider developing their games with a multiplatform focus from the start.

Eventually Microsoft will close their garden and will force developers to join The Windows Store: If your game or software is not there, suddenly it will not work on windows 10 or the next windows...
I don't see big publishers like EA and Ubisoft closing their respective clients for to join the Windows Store....
I don't see Indie devs joining the Windows Store.

Remember that this was the reason why Valve decided to make the Linux incursion... and it will happen, maybe after the EOL of Windows 7, in a year.

Great! Now i can try payday2 in vr!

After trying it now for an hour i can tell you, it works great in vr now(the same as in windows).

what do you think? what would be the alternative?

WaaS*, that's what... plus soon-ish gaming will move to the cloud, so you will only rent access, and own nothing... though that could be said is true already with digital distribution and always on-line DRM (not only digital distribution), albeit without a periodic fee. So your "client" device won't matter if it's a PC, Chromebook, phone, tablet, Switch, XBOX or PSX.

*Windows as a Service. Plus, as ironic as it sounds, there are already projects and efforts to implement past MS APIs on top of modern Windows (Wine for Windows, if you will) in order to run older software... so...

thats not an alternative. if you think streaming is the future, it makes everything else unimportant and it doesnt matter if we have native or proton or anything

That's the direction the industry is going anyway. See what are doing MS with the XBox and Google and nVidia, even.

The industry can try to go wherever it wants, but unless they're willing to step up and build the internet of tomorrow, the reality of infrastructure is gonna block games-as-a-streamed-service. Lots of streamed things work fine, but note how streamed music and video take a bit of time to get started, and sometimes pause in the middle. Would this kind of thing fly for games?
The problem is there's lots of money in things that exploit a really robust internet infrastructure (many of them hostile to the interests of consumers)--but there's pretty much no money in building that infrastructure, so nobody wants to. Which would mean government would do it, except current economic orthodoxy says governments aren't supposed to do anything constructive, they're supposed to cut taxes (on the rich). So: Until there's a big time political change in the world, the infrastructure for this stuff will come slowly. Maybe faster wireless will make a difference.


Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 19 January 2019 at 12:30 am UTC

I don't see big publishers like EA and Ubisoft closing their respective clients for to join the Windows Store....

I could imagine something like Origin itself being on WS and Microsoft taking a cut on "in-app purchases" i.e. games bought from within Origin. Not that the AAAs would like that, but what are they gonna do if Microsoft forces their hand? (Of course it would be a dangerous move to make for Microsoft since the AAAs could turn to consoles exclusively and kill PC gaming, but 1) I'm not sure Microsoft cares at this point since they have the XBOX and have been buying studios and 2) it's not unlike them to shoot themselves in the foot like that.)

I don't see Indie devs joining the Windows Store.

They will if it's the only way to get decent sales besides consoles.

Yes, there many (not only one) bottlenecks before GaaS is a thing, however, at the rate things are moving, the next 5 years seem rather blurry. I hope things stay pretty similar and the games streaming bubble bursts, alas, I cannot say. Network speed is but one piece of the puzzle, input latency is more critical, plus framerate will be an issue. So my hope is that demanding PC gamers will demand local games rather than streaming. The whole adoption for our platform lies in a conundrum. At least tangibly I've seen people flee W10, sadly, to OSX for the most part and the less for Linux, but still there is a seemingly constant stream of new users, to our overall benefit.


Last edited by Thetargos on 19 January 2019 at 1:11 am UTC

Yes, there many (not only one) bottlenecks before GaaS is a thing, however, at the rate things are moving, the next 5 years seem rather blurry. I hope things stay pretty similar and the games streaming bubble bursts, alas, I cannot say. Network speed is but one piece of the puzzle, input latency is more critical, plus framerate will be an issue. So my hope is that demanding PC gamers will demand local games rather than streaming. The whole adoption for our platform lies in a conundrum. At least tangibly I've seen people flee W10, sadly, to OSX for the most part and the less for Linux, but still there is a seemingly constant stream of new users, to our overall benefit.

German computer magazine c't ran a test lately. People having been told they were playing at a GaaS system complained - people they didn't tell it didn't even realize it. That probably won't be true for hardcore gamers, but for the majority (as long as their internet connection is good enough) won't see or at least won't care for the difference. (I heart there's people playing at 30 fps out there...!)

Yes, there many (not only one) bottlenecks before GaaS is a thing, however, at the rate things are moving, the next 5 years seem rather blurry. I hope things stay pretty similar and the games streaming bubble bursts, alas, I cannot say. Network speed is but one piece of the puzzle, input latency is more critical, plus framerate will be an issue. So my hope is that demanding PC gamers will demand local games rather than streaming. The whole adoption for our platform lies in a conundrum. At least tangibly I've seen people flee W10, sadly, to OSX for the most part and the less for Linux, but still there is a seemingly constant stream of new users, to our overall benefit.

German computer magazine c't ran a test lately. People having been told they were playing at a GaaS system complained - people they didn't tell it didn't even realize it. That probably won't be true for hardcore gamers, but for the majority (as long as their internet connection is good enough) won't see or at least won't care for the difference. (I heart there's people playing at 30 fps out there...!)

Interesting, do you have a link for that?
(Or do you refer to the printed magazine?)

German computer magazine c't ran a test lately. People having been told they were playing at a GaaS system complained - people they didn't tell it didn't even realize it. That probably won't be true for hardcore gamers, but for the majority (as long as their internet connection is good enough) won't see or at least won't care for the difference. (I heart there's people playing at 30 fps out there...!)

Interesting, do you have a link for that?
(Or do you refer to the printed magazine?)

I just read a test in a printed magazine of late 2018 (I'm lagging myself... X) ), but here is a even better new test online:
https://www.heise.de/select/ct/2019/1/1546333965757789

For the records: Parsec was the only of the tested cloud services that had a working Linux client.

German computer magazine c't ran a test lately. People having been told they were playing at a GaaS system complained - people they didn't tell it didn't even realize it. That probably won't be true for hardcore gamers, but for the majority (as long as their internet connection is good enough) won't see or at least won't care for the difference. (I heart there's people playing at 30 fps out there...!)

Interesting, do you have a link for that?
(Or do you refer to the printed magazine?)

I just read a test in a printed magazine of late 2018 (I'm lagging myself... X) ), but here is a even better new test online:
https://www.heise.de/select/ct/2019/1/1546333965757789

For the records: Parsec was the only of the tested cloud services that had a working Linux client.

Thanks, very interesting. What I took from the video: quite similar with Netflix Gaas wont be the solution for the high-end gamer/consumer, but could be a very attractive alternative for the casual player.


Last edited by jens on 19 January 2019 at 1:06 pm UTC

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

but they also talk about linux desktop. yes, PC market is shrinking (but still much much bigger than 30yrs ago), because everyone has a PC at home and/or have other devices


the last quote is also not correct. who said, that nobody learned from history?
the concept of challenging windows isnt a bad idea and again the circumstances TODAY are totally different, so you cant just compare it

if you wanna quote something then it better be: “If you try, you might fail,
But if you don't try, you'll never succeed.”

i bet tomb raider 2013 and rise of the tomb raider will run even better now gonna have to test this

rise of the tr has VULKAN and runs pretty good. i dont think, that it runs better with an extra DXVK layer. but maybe someone give it a shot and makes a NATIVE / PROTON comparison video. same with HITMAN

i definitely try METRO. the linux ports rly suck and have less options, than on windows
since there is no WAR THUNDER VULKAN update i think the Win version also could run better now (depends on anti cheat)

and i may can finally play DEAD ISLAND on linux
i complained a few days ago and hoped for forcing steamplay on native ports
and for some reasons 12 is better than 6 and iron snout wont work for me

but first i have to finish some games and make free space

yea ill be doing hitman i have that and rise of the tomb raider

no need for rise of the tomb raider
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt2bYfb27Qo

feral port is better

That probably won't be true for hardcore gamers, but for the majority (as long as their internet connection is good enough) won't see or at least won't care for the difference. (I heart there's people playing at 30 fps out there...!)

That's me! ... But it'll take a lot to convince me to switch to streaming as my main means of gaming.

I don't really feel like messing with a beta right now, can anyone tell me if Saints Row: the Third works on Steam Play? I tried on Wine before but it wouldn't start, apparently because of problems with the DRM. (I didn't feel like trying to crack it.)

Nope, I just tried it with Steam Play (Proton 3.16-6 and 3.7-8) and it didn't launch. I was able to pick the D3D version but after that it just refuses to launch.

Dang, that's what it does in Wine too. (Sorry for the late reply.)

Well, if I select DX9 I can see some logos. Then it crashes.

Eventually Microsoft will close their garden and will force developers to join The Windows Store: If your game or software is not there, suddenly it will not work on windows 10 or the next windows...
I don't see big publishers like EA and Ubisoft closing their respective clients for to join the Windows Store....
I don't see Indie devs joining the Windows Store.

Quick history lesson (for those who don't already know about PS/2 and ISA):

Spoiler, click me

After the likes of Compaq created the “IBM clone” market in the mid '80s, IBM decided that they needed to gain their exclusivity back and devised a new PC architecture, PS/2, which, in a fit of magnanimity, they'd licence to the clone makers for a nice juicy fee. By the time this was ready for market, it was the late '80s, and the clone manufacturers, having a decent business going by this point and not wanting to see all their profitability disappear down a big blue hole, got together and drew up a standard for future development based on what they already had: the Industry Standard Architecture, or ISA (and that's where your ISA slots came from).

No prizes for guessing which one won out in the end.

If MS continue on the path they're on with Win10, I can imagine a consortium of game developers coalescing around Proton as a sort of “Industry Standard API”. I think that's Valve's whole plan, really.

It's true that an API is a different beast to a hardware architecture and things in the software world move much faster. And DX11 is already “out of date”. But then, so was ISA: PS/2 was more advanced. However, ISA was simply a common platform that future developments could be based on. There's not much of it left in a modern PC. The point was wresting control of the platform from a single player and moving towards a more open, consensus-based, industry-wide model without restrictive licenses.

The same could happen with Proton. If DX11 proves inadequate, they can move towards using Vulkan directly. If the basic Win32/64 and DirectX APIs become outdated, well, everything written specifically for Proton's “ISAPI” works on Linux anyway, so...

(Edit: Heh. That's what I get for reading the thread backwards. I didn't see tonyrh's comment until I'd posted mine. Great minds think alike. :) I think one difference is that I don't see it as a bad thing. ISA didn't strengthen IBM's hand; quite the opposite. Although they eventually gave in and continued to make ISA PCs, they had to recognise that it was no longer “their” system. I don't see Microsoft losing control of the pre-DX12 Windows API as anything other than a win.)


Last edited by Dunc on 21 January 2019 at 2:56 am UTC

a new PC architecture, PS/2

Did you mean: MCA bus?

The PS/2 port is a connector named after the IBM PS/2 models where it was introduced. It was quickly adopted and replaced DE-9 RS-232 (mice) and 5-pin DIN (keyboard) connectors. They have all essentially been superceded by USB nowadays, but the PS/2 hangs on due to some specific attributes that makes it desirable even today.

a new PC architecture, PS/2

Did you mean: MCA bus?

Heh. I knew someone would pick up on that. I was trying to keep it simple. :)