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PayPalIt seems things aren't all rosy between CodeWeavers and DXVK, as developer Henri Verbeet has written into the Wine Development mailing list to give more details.
The developers working on Wine seem to be going their own way with their Vulkan plans and most thought this was due to DXVK being written in C++, a different license and so on. Apparently, that's not the main issue as Verbeet notes and they didn't pull any punches:
In February 2018, we reached out to Philip Rebohle—the author of DXVK—to start a conversation around whether there were any areas we could cooperate on. One obvious area was the vkd3d shader compiler, which translates Direct3D shader byte code to SPIR-V (much like DXVK has to do), but there would have been other possibilities, like sharing the DXGI implementation, or using a scheme like vkd3d where Wine's d3d11 could have optionally loaded DXVK as a regular shared library. That e-mail went unanswered. Now, I appreciate that different people have different ideas about what's acceptable and what isn't, but personally I think that's extremely rude and uncivilised.
They continued:
Nevertheless, e-mail gets lost sometimes, sometimes people are busy, everyone gets a second chance. So a few months later, since I was organising WineConf 2018, I sent Philip a personal invitation to attend WineConf, and perhaps discuss things there. That invitation went unanswered too, at which point I was pretty much done with DXVK.
It is my understanding that since then both Jeremy White and CodeWeavers' partners at Valve have tried reaching out to Philip on the subject, but evidently with little success.
Personally, this all feels like it's getting a little too heated for me. Still, it shows that there's clearly some communication issues that need to be solved between all parties involved for the better of us all who use Wine, DXVK and so on.
Hopefully the situation can be resolved in an amicable way, calling someone out in such a way doesn't seem particularly fair though. I've picked up on emails months after they were sent before, it's very common when you're busy and working alone. I did speak to Philip Rebohle after this, who said they would rather stay out of "unnecessary drama in public".
The good news, is that they are working on an official wined3d Vulkan backend going by a codename of Damavand which will be interesting to see.
You can see the mailing list entry here.
Cheers, Phoronix.
Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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Hang on so literally two emails got sent out for whatever reason doesnt get a fast response and that is we are not going to use one of the best performance tools for windows/linx gaming in ten years. There a number of reasons why that could be he may feel that he cant discuss his source code without valves permission as they are his employer two he feels his project is the only way to go and its his baby he doesnt anyone "helping" with it. Or he could actually be being rude and not give two fucks about the wine development team. Since am not a mind reader nor personally know anybody involved and I think I am going to say its probably a misunderstanding based on miscommunication.
DXVK development will continue and third party clients such as lutris will still enable you to install dxvk on wine configs so whether wine and dxvk are playing nicely or not is really irrelvent.
Last edited by Whitewolfe80 on 25 Jan 2019 at 11:59 pm UTC
DXVK development will continue and third party clients such as lutris will still enable you to install dxvk on wine configs so whether wine and dxvk are playing nicely or not is really irrelvent.
Last edited by Whitewolfe80 on 25 Jan 2019 at 11:59 pm UTC
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Saddly this is not new in the opensource realm. Duplicated efforts due to Gigantic egos always generate duplicated / triplicated efforts. This is the same old DEB x RPM, KDE x Gnome, upstart x systemv , Snap x Flatpak.... While opensource is fighting it self, closed source OS like Windows and OSX concentrate efforts in what really matter.. . . lock-in?
Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 26 Jan 2019 at 12:04 am UTC
8 Likes, Who?
I'm glad the joke got across ^_^This is a very one-sided argument right now and we really have no idea what is actually going on, we have the words of one person.Frankly, I have to question why you published this article given those very same arguments.
Did you try reaching out to Philip for comment?
What makes you think he'd respond even if Liam had? He clearly doesn't check his email. :P
We are a news site.I mean, it can be hard to separate the two aspects of this and I understand the informational value of saying that Wine are doing their own thing for Vulkan, but as far as the public is concerned I feel it would have been enough to say that they reached out to Philip and didn't hear back so they did their own thing. Everything else feels more like airing other people's personal grudges and I don't know that we need to hear about it. That's just my opinion and you're free to disagree, but I wanted to give feedback.
We publish news and interesting happenings about major projects.
It's not difficult to understand why. Many people have wondered ever since DXVK was created, if it would become part of Wine and this is some kind of insight into the happenings from one side.
Edit: And yes, I did try to speak to him first and he stayed out of it.
Also, I feel like mentioning that "X has declined to comment" or some such should typically be included in a news article, especially in an issue like this since it shows that you made sure not to stoke the flames of an issue Philip may have actually been unaware of.
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As has been pointed out, we really don't know what's going on. At the same time, this last bit does suggest it's more than missing 2 emails.
I have the impression that Philip Rebohle has firm opinions about approaches to software, what works well and what leads to problems. I have the suspicion maybe he simply doesn't like Wine's style of coding, doesn't think trying to converge and make DXVK work with Wine would be fruitful but instead would maybe tangle him up, but doesn't want to tell them to their faces that he thinks their way of doing things is broken. So, sidestepping maybe.
Mind you, I have no interest in defending this vaporous comment since it is likely to be wildly off base.
It is my understanding that since then both Jeremy White and CodeWeavers' partners at Valve have tried reaching out to Philip on the subject, but evidently with little success.
I have the impression that Philip Rebohle has firm opinions about approaches to software, what works well and what leads to problems. I have the suspicion maybe he simply doesn't like Wine's style of coding, doesn't think trying to converge and make DXVK work with Wine would be fruitful but instead would maybe tangle him up, but doesn't want to tell them to their faces that he thinks their way of doing things is broken. So, sidestepping maybe.
Mind you, I have no interest in defending this vaporous comment since it is likely to be wildly off base.
3 Likes, Who?
No matter which way I frame it, I'm never going to please everyone.We are a news site.I mean, it can be hard to separate the two aspects of this and I understand the informational value of saying that Wine are doing their own thing for Vulkan, but as far as the public is concerned I feel it would have been enough to say that they reached out to Philip and didn't hear back so they did their own thing. Everything else feels more like airing other people's personal grudges and I don't know that we need to hear about it. That's just my opinion and you're free to disagree, but I wanted to give feedback.
We publish news and interesting happenings about major projects.
It's not difficult to understand why. Many people have wondered ever since DXVK was created, if it would become part of Wine and this is some kind of insight into the happenings from one side.
Edit: And yes, I did try to speak to him first and he stayed out of it.
Also, I feel like mentioning that "X has declined to comment" or some such should typically be included in a news article, especially in an issue like this since it shows that you made sure not to stoke the flames of an issue Philip may have actually been unaware of.
They said it in a public mailing list, knowing people are watching and subscribed to it including plenty of non-developers wanting to keep tabs on it. It's not up to me to cut their words or to try to suggest they're saying something different.
I've added a small note on what Rebohle said in Discord.
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They say Similar people dont get along LOL
1 Likes, Who?
No matter which way I frame it, I'm never going to please everyone.Fair enough. Cheers.
They said it in a public mailing list, knowing people are watching and subscribed to it including plenty of non-developers wanting to keep tabs on it. It's not up to me to cut their words or to try to suggest they're saying something different.
I've added a small note on what Rebohle said in Discord.
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Nevertheless 26 Jan 2019
Here's some extra perspective for you.
CodeWeavers emailed me a while ago out of the blue to thank me for my coverage of Proton. I emailed them to ask for an interview, they didn't reply. A week later one of them is on a podcast with BoilingSteam.
I didn't get salty about it, it's just the way it is. It's why I find the situation so bemusing. Emails don't get answered all the time.
Exactly. In my experiance not answering emails often means "cannot talk about it", "cannot talk about it and also can't tell you why", "don't want to talk about it for my own non-public reasons", or something of the like.
And maybe (speculations) Codeweavers wrote about it all, because they got asked so often and did want to answer that it's not on them.
I guess we should trust them all to resolve this in their own .. or not if they choose to.
Last edited by Nevertheless on 26 Jan 2019 at 12:03 pm UTC
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Nevertheless 26 Jan 2019
the wording was very harsh though.
Are you referring to this phrase: "but personally I think that's extremely rude and uncivilised"?
That's very harsh? We have really come to this?
I miss the "Nvidia, fuck you!" days...
And it's also more precise! ;-)
1 Likes, Who?
Harsh because it's basically shaming another developer because they didn't return emails. It's ridiculous.the wording was very harsh though.
Are you referring to this phrase: "but personally I think that's extremely rude and uncivilised"?
That's very harsh? We have really come to this?
I miss the "Nvidia, fuck you!" days...
1 Likes, Who?
I'm left wondering what led up to this because the Verbeet announcement quoted in the article feels weirdly defensive---or even preemptive---in its tone. Were the Codeweaver cats catching heat for not implementing DXVK or for creating their own solution or something? Has there been hubbub about bad blood between these two camps for awhile, such that Verbeet saw a need to air their dirty laundry?
Philip Rebohle was communicative enough to respond to Liam's enquiry, and sounds like he knew about the issues ... so its not like he couldn't have cleared this up had he wanted to.
Verbeet's version of this story---that Rebohle was being "rude"---just rings hollow. What's going on here, really?
Philip Rebohle was communicative enough to respond to Liam's enquiry, and sounds like he knew about the issues ... so its not like he couldn't have cleared this up had he wanted to.
Verbeet's version of this story---that Rebohle was being "rude"---just rings hollow. What's going on here, really?
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Better to not make assumptions in a potential game of "broken telephone". Just hope that they do start to talk amicably, even if it means one or both parties have to say "I can't work with you because of x." Getting that unpleasantness over with would be a good idea because there's huge demand from the community for both projects.
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Comandante Ñoñardo 26 Jan 2019
People!
Maybe WINe is not going to be using DXVK, but CROSSOVER 18 indeed allow you to install and use DXVK v0.94 with a single click, so there isn't a real problem between Codeweavers and Rebohle.
Maybe WINe is not going to be using DXVK, but CROSSOVER 18 indeed allow you to install and use DXVK v0.94 with a single click, so there isn't a real problem between Codeweavers and Rebohle.
2 Likes, Who?
ElectricPrism 26 Jan 2019
Rule #1 to fixing problems: Communicate.
Honestly if I was CodeWeavers I would take it all the way and be loud enough and obnoxious enough, throw some tweets, discord, get phone contact, whatever -- at least get the guy to SAY outright "he prefers to work alone" or some other response even if it's BS.
Then you clearly have accomplished the goal and exhausted the possibility for telephone fuckery and butthurt from no contact from the WINEO camp.
The number of reasons the two emails got no response could have a billion answers, don't tell me that our generation lacks the persistence required, because if that's true our comfy world where we can buy cheeseburgers and have the comfort of our homes and cars will collapse like every other prosperous nation in history from complacence.
Reminds me of H3H3: "Did you try clicking 'try again', guy's clearly' they've done everything! they clicked try again"
Last edited by ElectricPrism on 26 Jan 2019 at 5:35 pm UTC
Honestly if I was CodeWeavers I would take it all the way and be loud enough and obnoxious enough, throw some tweets, discord, get phone contact, whatever -- at least get the guy to SAY outright "he prefers to work alone" or some other response even if it's BS.
Then you clearly have accomplished the goal and exhausted the possibility for telephone fuckery and butthurt from no contact from the WINEO camp.
The number of reasons the two emails got no response could have a billion answers, don't tell me that our generation lacks the persistence required, because if that's true our comfy world where we can buy cheeseburgers and have the comfort of our homes and cars will collapse like every other prosperous nation in history from complacence.
Reminds me of H3H3: "Did you try clicking 'try again', guy's clearly' they've done everything! they clicked try again"
Last edited by ElectricPrism on 26 Jan 2019 at 5:35 pm UTC
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„UNIX wars“… anyone? xD
By the way, who the f**k cares? I mean… seriously?
Let them deal with their shit.
Last edited by bolokanar on 26 Jan 2019 at 8:32 pm UTC
By the way, who the f**k cares? I mean… seriously?
Let them deal with their shit.
Last edited by bolokanar on 26 Jan 2019 at 8:32 pm UTC
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Maybe he just doesn't feel like it. I get offers from people trying to sell me stuff and services all the time. Am I rude for not replying? And I'm not talking about spam.
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There's simply too little information to reach any conclusion so I think we should stop discussing it ad nauseam.
Nothing good will come out of it.
Personally, I'm really happy both Wine and DXVK exist because it has really improved gaming on my favourite OS and I'm thankful to developers on both of these projects.
Nothing good will come out of it.
Personally, I'm really happy both Wine and DXVK exist because it has really improved gaming on my favourite OS and I'm thankful to developers on both of these projects.
3 Likes, Who?
This is pretty mysterious. I would understand entirely if Doitsujin just wanted to keep DXVK its own project, but that would be a pretty simple point to get across to the community as well as to them. I do know there has been talk -- which he's been involved in -- about adding compatibility to DXVK's DXGI implementation for VKD3D, so I know at the very least he's not against some collaboration.
While I don't want to take sides or make assumptions, tbh his decision not to say anything publicly vs the codeweaver's dev kind of whining about it sure doesn't look good on the latter.
It's definitely a shame though. DXVK is damn good and lately I actually do just replace wined3d11 with it using TKG's PKGBUILDs. I don't play anything that uses DX12 so it hardly matters. DXVK seems to perform better when compiled as a wine library in a lot of cases and the issues where it doesn't would probably be smoothed over if it was fully integrated into Wine itself...
While I don't want to take sides or make assumptions, tbh his decision not to say anything publicly vs the codeweaver's dev kind of whining about it sure doesn't look good on the latter.
It's definitely a shame though. DXVK is damn good and lately I actually do just replace wined3d11 with it using TKG's PKGBUILDs. I don't play anything that uses DX12 so it hardly matters. DXVK seems to perform better when compiled as a wine library in a lot of cases and the issues where it doesn't would probably be smoothed over if it was fully integrated into Wine itself...
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This already happened, and was closed. I'll let the reader find it through google.
That wasn't by Wine developers though, so nothing stopped them from doing it again.
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