The war of the PC stores is getting ugly, as Metro Exodus becomes a timed Epic Store exclusive

Quoting: gradyvuckovicIt's pretty simple for me.

I already have a Steam account.

I already have over 200 games in Steam.

I have no desire to see Steam suffer, because any threat to Steam is a treat to my game library.

Steam is run by Valve. Valve heavily supports Linux, more so than any commercial entity would while thinking rationally and I am infinitely grateful to them as a result.

Exclusives aren't competition, exclusives are the opposite of competition. I refuse to be forced to use a platform due to exclusives.

I wouldn't buy a game from a store that doesn't even have a native Linux client, even if I was interested in shopping elsewhere.

What cut Valve takes from devs is irrelevant to me, as Steam's prices are usually better than what I get in retail stores, they run frequent specials with great discounts.

Steam's service is fantastic imo, and I am not on board with the mindset of 'Everything needs to be redesigned every 2 years to stay cool', that's not actually user friendly at all. If something is already great, it doesn't need to be redesigned, it just needs to be refined and Valve have been refining Steam for a decade. It's almost perfect the way it is.

Fortnite needs to die as soon as possible to cut off Epic's source of revenue, I can't believe I use to think they were an OK company.

Great post. I can't believe @Shmerl is holding his/her(?) tongue over this thread so well, because of course not only is the shoe on the other foot (exclusives outside of Steam), but also you've raise the excellent point that a threat to Steam/Valve is indeed a threat to your carefully horded (and paid-for) steam library. We're just renting those titles (permanently) rather than owning them.

Is Epic running the same gig? Or can you download a DRM-free version of their titles for play without the need for the Epic launcher? Knowing Epic, I'd expect both a forced launcher AND draconian, bullshit DRM on everything. In fact, isn't Metro getting the Denuvo treatment now too?

Shmerl's probably cackling away at the irony of us Steam users realising that Steam's DRM threatens those precious libraries. Okay, probably not. Shmerls always struck me as a fairly mature dude. I'd be cackling away though, if I didn't have nearly 800 (!) titles on Steam right now and precious few are DRM-free from Humble, GOG, or Itch.

I am buying more Itch titles these days though. Love those guys. Especially love the fact that you can overpay on that platform if you choose. Not so much of a fan that they apply VAT at the end of the transaction though. I wish they'd tidy that up.

Quoting: scaine

Quoting: gradyvuckovicIt's pretty simple for me.

I already have a Steam account.

I already have over 200 games in Steam.

I have no desire to see Steam suffer, because any threat to Steam is a treat to my game library.

Steam is run by Valve. Valve heavily supports Linux, more so than any commercial entity would while thinking rationally and I am infinitely grateful to them as a result.

Exclusives aren't competition, exclusives are the opposite of competition. I refuse to be forced to use a platform due to exclusives.

I wouldn't buy a game from a store that doesn't even have a native Linux client, even if I was interested in shopping elsewhere.

What cut Valve takes from devs is irrelevant to me, as Steam's prices are usually better than what I get in retail stores, they run frequent specials with great discounts.

Steam's service is fantastic imo, and I am not on board with the mindset of 'Everything needs to be redesigned every 2 years to stay cool', that's not actually user friendly at all. If something is already great, it doesn't need to be redesigned, it just needs to be refined and Valve have been refining Steam for a decade. It's almost perfect the way it is.

Fortnite needs to die as soon as possible to cut off Epic's source of revenue, I can't believe I use to think they were an OK company.

Great post. I can't believe @Shmerl is holding his/her(?) tongue over this thread so well, because of course not only is the shoe on the other foot (exclusives outside of Steam), but also you've raise the excellent point that a threat to Steam/Valve is indeed a threat to your carefully horded (and paid-for) steam library. We're just renting those titles (permanently) rather than owning them.

Is Epic running the same gig? Or can you download a DRM-free version of their titles for play without the need for the Epic launcher? Knowing Epic, I'd expect both a forced launcher AND draconian, bullshit DRM on everything. In fact, isn't Metro getting the Denuvo treatment now too?

Shmerl's probably cackling away at the irony of us Steam users realising that Steam's DRM threatens those precious libraries. Okay, probably not. Shmerls always struck me as a fairly mature dude. I'd be cackling away though, if I didn't have nearly 800 (!) titles on Steam right now and precious few are DRM-free from Humble, GOG, or Itch.

I am buying more Itch titles these days though. Love those guys. Especially love the fact that you can overpay on that platform if you choose. Not so much of a fan that they apply VAT at the end of the transaction though. I wish they'd tidy that up.

I can't say if it applies for a lot more titles than this, but I'm able to launch Steam's Witcher 3 without even launching Steam, as a standalone game, just with Wine+DXVK and the Witcher.exe launcher. All is not doom and gloom in an hypothetical Steam failure. That's what I was doing before Proton. You just need to keep a backup of those games. Is this what you are referring to?

Quoting: scaine...you've raise the excellent point that a threat to Steam/Valve is indeed a threat to your carefully horded (and paid-for) steam library. We're just renting those titles (permanently) rather than owning them.

Is Epic running the same gig? Or can you download a DRM-free version of their titles for play without the need for the Epic launcher? Knowing Epic, I'd expect both a forced launcher AND draconian, bullshit DRM on everything.

Outstanding point... Good question about Epic, and I agree with you that given their history, draconian is what we could probably expect on DRM...

Quoting: iiari

Quoting: scaineIs Epic running the same gig? Or can you download a DRM-free version of their titles for play without the need for the Epic launcher? Knowing Epic, I'd expect both a forced launcher AND draconian, bullshit DRM on everything.

Outstanding point... Good question about Epic, and I agree with you that given their history, draconian is what we could probably expect on DRM...

I only checked the free Subnautica, so I don't exactly have a big sampling size. But the Launcher is the only way to download the game. After it is downloaded, it is installed in a separate directory, it didn't launch from there directly. I checked the launch command when it was started from the launcher and that shows that it passes on the user and authentication hash to the game as command line options.

Good, then there is no risk of me buying it to try it in Proton. Happy to keep my money.

Quoting: Mohandevir

Quoting: scaine

Quoting: gradyvuckovicIt's pretty simple for me.

I already have a Steam account.

I already have over 200 games in Steam.

I have no desire to see Steam suffer, because any threat to Steam is a treat to my game library.

Steam is run by Valve. Valve heavily supports Linux, more so than any commercial entity would while thinking rationally and I am infinitely grateful to them as a result.

Exclusives aren't competition, exclusives are the opposite of competition. I refuse to be forced to use a platform due to exclusives.

I wouldn't buy a game from a store that doesn't even have a native Linux client, even if I was interested in shopping elsewhere.

What cut Valve takes from devs is irrelevant to me, as Steam's prices are usually better than what I get in retail stores, they run frequent specials with great discounts.

Steam's service is fantastic imo, and I am not on board with the mindset of 'Everything needs to be redesigned every 2 years to stay cool', that's not actually user friendly at all. If something is already great, it doesn't need to be redesigned, it just needs to be refined and Valve have been refining Steam for a decade. It's almost perfect the way it is.

Fortnite needs to die as soon as possible to cut off Epic's source of revenue, I can't believe I use to think they were an OK company.

Great post. I can't believe @Shmerl is holding his/her(?) tongue over this thread so well, because of course not only is the shoe on the other foot (exclusives outside of Steam), but also you've raise the excellent point that a threat to Steam/Valve is indeed a threat to your carefully horded (and paid-for) steam library. We're just renting those titles (permanently) rather than owning them.

Is Epic running the same gig? Or can you download a DRM-free version of their titles for play without the need for the Epic launcher? Knowing Epic, I'd expect both a forced launcher AND draconian, bullshit DRM on everything. In fact, isn't Metro getting the Denuvo treatment now too?

Shmerl's probably cackling away at the irony of us Steam users realising that Steam's DRM threatens those precious libraries. Okay, probably not. Shmerls always struck me as a fairly mature dude. I'd be cackling away though, if I didn't have nearly 800 (!) titles on Steam right now and precious few are DRM-free from Humble, GOG, or Itch.

I am buying more Itch titles these days though. Love those guys. Especially love the fact that you can overpay on that platform if you choose. Not so much of a fan that they apply VAT at the end of the transaction though. I wish they'd tidy that up.

I can't say if it applies for a lot more titles than this, but I'm able to launch Steam's Witcher 3 without even launching Steam, as a standalone game, just with Wine+DXVK and the Witcher.exe launcher. All is not doom and gloom in an hypothetical Steam failure. That's what I was doing before Proton. You just need to keep a backup of those games. Is this what you are referring to?

CD Project Red have been vocal about not believing DRM is a good tool, so they don't add it to their games ( although I find it ironic that they only write their games for platforms that themselves are DRM-encumbered ).

There is no requirement for Steam Developers to use any form of DRM, and the actual DRM function provided by Valve is, by their own admission, very weak. Their advice to developers is not to bother with the DRM functions, but just to embed Steam features that need an authenticated account.

I would expect that a high proportion of your Steam titles could be easily recovered if the service disappeared, so long as you have kept a copy, since you may no longer be able to download. I'm not clear how you would prove your rights though.

Quoting: etonbearsI would expect that a high proportion of your Steam titles could be easily recovered if the service disappeared, so long as you have kept a copy, since you may no longer be able to download.

Just an educated guess: Chances are that they are the same games that are playable in offline mode, and there are quite a lot of them.


Last edited by Mohandevir on 1 February 2019 at 7:38 pm UTC

Quoting: Mohandevir

Quoting: etonbearsI would expect that a high proportion of your Steam titles could be easily recovered if the service disappeared, so long as you have kept a copy, since you may no longer be able to download.

Just an educated guess: Chances are that they are the same games that are playable in offline mode, and there are quite a lot of them.

Probably more, depending on how each game works. If necessary, you can work out what game does and replace the bits you don't want. Machine code is not easy to read, but it is perfectly transparent. It can be reversed to assembler trivially, and to higher level call structures with a little more work. Stepping through the code with debugging and profiling tools allows you to find the parts you don't want to execute and overwrite with a jump instruction to where you wish to continue. Sometimes all you need to do is replace a dynamic library with an equivalent with do-nothing function calls. This would be the case for anything just requesting steam services as authentication/DRM.

The inability to truly obfuscate software is why malware and piracy are so rampant, and why DRM is nothing more than a delaying tactic.

Quoting: iiari

Quoting: scaine...you've raise the excellent point that a threat to Steam/Valve is indeed a threat to your carefully horded (and paid-for) steam library. We're just renting those titles (permanently) rather than owning them.

Is Epic running the same gig? Or can you download a DRM-free version of their titles for play without the need for the Epic launcher? Knowing Epic, I'd expect both a forced launcher AND draconian, bullshit DRM on everything.

Outstanding point... Good question about Epic, and I agree with you that given their history, draconian is what we could probably expect on DRM...

http://i.imgur.com/4sa1Ln6.jpg

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/18mzcn/i_asked_steam_support_what_happens_to_my_games_if/

Quoting: GuestAnd now the Dev(s) from Metro are saying that the next Metro if there is a sequel probably wont come to PC when the sales are low. Sooo....there will be a PC version because lets be real everyone will buy it. NOW everyone is like bah epic and boycott but in the end they will buy it. Its always the same.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/412020/discussions/0/1780513643852520184/

I don't think the developer's opinion translated very well. What I think they said was, IF ALL PC PLAYERS took the view of the screaming Steam fans, spewing bile at the developers, and refuse to buy Metro Exodus, then there would be no point in releasing any future game on the PC, since there would be no sales. It was not a threat.

The developer then says that they do not believe all PC players are as closed-minded as those complaining and fans will buy the game. You also seem to think most people will buy the game, even if they complain.

While I would prefer all games to be available in as many formats and outlets as possible, I find the aggressive and threatening attitude displayed by some gamers over not getting exactly what they want, when and how they want it, to be deeply disturbing. It is not the way to persuade other parties to your point of view, and is not the way anyone would behave in relation to physical retailing.

Quoting: GuestAnd now the Dev(s) from Metro are saying that the next Metro if there is a sequel probably wont come to PC when the sales are low. Sooo....there will be a PC version because lets be real everyone will buy it. NOW everyone is like bah epic and boycott but in the end they will buy it. Its always the same.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/412020/discussions/0/1780513643852520184/

From a different site:

https://www.dsogaming.com/news/4a-games-developer-if-metro-exodus-does-not-sell-on-the-pc-the-next-metro-will-not-come-out-for-it/

QuoteThis 4A Games developer with the nickname “scynet” admitted that it was a sudden decision to announce the timed-exclusive deal with Epic Games only one month prior to the game’s release and that it could cause some inconvenience to players. Scynet also claimed that those that decide to pirate the game would have done so, regardless of this timed-exclusive deal, and those are not the players that the developers target.

However, the developer went one step further and stated that if all PC gamers boycott Metro Exodus then the next Metro game (if there is one mind you) will not come out on the PC. Now I’m pretty sure that the developer was exaggerating here but it begs the question; how many PC sales can guarantee the continuation of the Metro franchise on the PC?

Of course, this is the opinion of only one developer and not of the entire studio or the publisher, however it shows how nervous some of 4A Games’ developers actually are. And, to be honest, we all know that the publisher actually makes the final decision. If the publisher wants to release a game on the PC, the developers will either have to develop it or let another team handle that version.

My Take:

• Developer writes a sequel to a massively popular game.


• At the last minute the developer says that they don't care how many pre-sales there are already, they are stopping support for the game on the popular game store to put it on a consumer unfriendly store that few people want to use.


• The reason for the sudden change less than 1 month before release: short term greed.


• Likely customers revolt. Literally thousands say they do not want to deal with the exclusive store for various reasons.


• Developer doesn't care what its customers are saying. Doubles down with the idea that they are doing the proper thing.


• More people complain. Story makes all the gaming news.


• Developer says that despite the criticism about their short sited mistake that if enough customers don't buy the sequel from the consumer unfriendly store that they will take their ball and go home.

Last edited by stretch611 on 3 February 2019 at 2:12 am UTC

Quoting: etonbearsThe developer then says that they do not believe all PC players are as closed-minded as those complaining and fans will buy the game. You also seem to think most people will buy the game, even if they complain.

I would paraphrase this: "The devs say they can do whatever they want and you'll buy their product anyway. And you must so they could get money twice, from you and from Epic Games."

Quoting: etonbearsI find the aggressive and threatening attitude displayed by some gamers over not getting exactly what they want, when and how they want it, to be deeply disturbing.

I find deeply disturbing Epic Games' aggressive and threatening way to promote yet another digital game store. They didn't developed Metro: Exodus, they didn't give money on the development, they just gave bags of money to the devs and took the game. People who pre-ordered a Steam key in digital stores will now get a key to EGS.

Epic Games could have made a PC port of some big console exclusive game for their store, like Bloodborne or Bayonetta 2, and everyone would be happy, but no, they decided to steal games from Steam.

Quoting: GuestAnd now the Dev(s) from Metro are saying that the next Metro if there is a sequel probably wont come to PC when the sales are low.

Once again: the devs agreed to sell Metro to Epic Games only because Epic Games offered them more money than they estimated to get from Steam sales. So, if nobody buys it on EGS, they still make a profit. But if nobody buys it there, EGS will start thinking: does their strategy work? It works if everyone buys Metro on EGS, and in this case they will do this again with Sekiro or other anticipated games.

Quoting: kuhpunkt

Quoting: iiari

Quoting: scaine...you've raise the excellent point that a threat to Steam/Valve is indeed a threat to your carefully horded (and paid-for) steam library. We're just renting those titles (permanently) rather than owning them.

Is Epic running the same gig? Or can you download a DRM-free version of their titles for play without the need for the Epic launcher? Knowing Epic, I'd expect both a forced launcher AND draconian, bullshit DRM on everything.

Outstanding point... Good question about Epic, and I agree with you that given their history, draconian is what we could probably expect on DRM...

http://i.imgur.com/4sa1Ln6.jpg

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/18mzcn/i_asked_steam_support_what_happens_to_my_games_if/

In the case of a corporate shuttering (e.g. bankruptcy), the company involved (Valve Corporation, CD Projekt, etc) may no longer have the time and resources to follow through on promises of making purchased games available to customers, nor, in so far as I am aware, have any of these digital distribution service providers contractually stipulated that you have rights to your libraries in the event of them going out of business or even in the event of them making some other stark change (such as moving to a monthly paywall service charge). I believe rights of access for these typically end at termination of the license agreement or the subscription itself (to which the license applies) and by agreeing to the current EULA you usually also agree to possible unilateral future changes, and of course, the license confers no title or ownership, more or less just access to the service as it exists (if you don't run afoul of EULA provisions and get booted off for other reasons).

The provided URLs seem to be primarily focused on what would happen if Valve went out of business. Of all possibilities, I would be least concerned about the larger digital distribution platforms going under. More so than closure, I am more concerned about how large (i.e. corporate-run) services can change (due to external or internal pressures), and sea changes can happen rapidly. Gabe Newell won't always be the head of Valve Corporation, someday CD Projekt might be bought out by a company that doesn't share its values (or perhaps CD Projekt might decide to divest itself of GOG Sp. z o.o. in order to focus solely on video game development and possibly other entertainment media creation), etc.

The service being shutdown isn't the only way you can lose access to your digital library temporarily or permanently. A security breach is one, and that can be a headache to clean up.

Even with great security protections in place, that won't protect you from EULA changes. For example, no matter how well-intentioned, an overreaching code of conduct being put in place, which you opt into by accepting the terms and conditions of the EULA, could result in an accused person being temporarily locked out of her/his account on a first or second alleged transgression, and being permanently banned if accused again. Affected users would really have little defense in that situation, other than trying to draw attention to the incident publicly, and on a matter such as this, you are unlikely to meet with much success speaking out.

If at some point a service adopts draconian bans based on perceived cheating, you could be banned if you trigger anti-cheat software with a false positive. Based on whether this has happened several times, this could result in a permanent ban.

The aforementioned are just a few hypotheticals. But even if all history and current evidence suggested that everything will remain status quo 'throughout the universe in perpetuity', just as a matter of general precaution, I would rather back up my games now rather than try to do so in the unlikely event of an emergency, and, as much as possible, I would prefer games not be code dependent on the features of a specific third-party service (e.g. Games for Windows Live). Changeable, default configurations are okay; e.g. a game relied on GameSpy multiplayer servers, GameSpy multiplayer servers were shut down, but if multiplayer servers used by the game can be manually configured by users, then it's not a big deal. If a game is so heavily integrated with one distribution platform's features that it would be gimped (e.g. no multiplayer) if offered through another distribution platform, that is lamentable and not very robust.

Quoting: ikirutoWill Metro Exodus ever return to Steam?
Yes - Metro Exodus will return to Steam and on other store fronts after 14th February 2020.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/412020/discussions/0/1743358239849378663/

Yes after a year of being exclusive on steam a year if a hell of long time to wait and avoid spoliers.

Quoting: Whitewolfe80Yes after a year of being exclusive on steam a year if a hell of long time to wait and avoid spoliers.

Why are you afraid of spoilers?

Quoting: ageres

Quoting: Whitewolfe80Yes after a year of being exclusive on steam a year if a hell of long time to wait and avoid spoliers.

Why are you afraid of spoilers?

Because i play games for the story

But holy damn the developer gone into meltdown and has threatened not bringing it to pc at all because people are talking about boycotting epics store

Deep Silver decides to go the exclusive way and then talk about users being close minded and not coming back to PC platform... Yeah right!

Didn't say I wouldn't buy it though. But I won't buy it on Epic Store. Period.

I waited more than 3 years to be able to play Witcher 3. I can wait at least a year for Metro: Exodus to come back on Steam and I may buy it if it works well with Proton (Gold or Platnium). I'd prefer a native build, but...

Unfortunately, on PC, game boycotts will only damage the industry. Just look at Deep Silver's answer. Instead of understanding that exclusives are a bad concept, they throw back the pressure on the customer's shoulders.

That's exactly what I was referring to when I said that Epic was exposing us to the destruction of PC gaming. Didn't know they would prove me right that fast...


Last edited by Mohandevir on 4 February 2019 at 1:57 pm UTC

Quoting: MohandevirDeep Silver decides to go the exclusive way and then talk about users being close minded and not coming back to PC platform... Yeah right!

Didn't say I wouldn't buy it though. But I won't buy it on Epic Store. Period.

I waited more than 3 years to be able to play Witcher 3. I can wait at least a year for Metro: Exodus to come back on Steam and I may buy it if it works well with Proton (Gold or Platnium). I'd prefer a native build, but...

Unfortunately, on PC, game boycotts will only damage the industry. Just look at Deep Silver's answer. Instead of understanding that exclusives are a bad concept, they throw back the pressure on the customer's shoulders.

That's exactly what I was referring to when I said that Epic was exposing us to the destruction of PC gaming. Didn't know they would prove me right that fast...

There is news again!
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2019/02/04/metro-games-to-continue-on-pc-despite-any-epic-store-boycott/

Quoting: MohandevirUnfortunately, on PC, game boycotts will only damage the industry. Just look at Deep Silver's answer. Instead of understanding that exclusives are a bad concept, they throw back the pressure on the customer's shoulders.

That's a common misconception. As long as a market is profitable someone will invest in it because there will be return of investment. PC gaming is in no way in peril (not until Gabe goes mad and follows Sweeney on the exclusive deals route at least)

Metro is in no way a small IP or an unknown one. If it had released on Steam it would have generated tons of revenues. These are not words from a revenue desperate indie that is starving and risking default. Deep Silver simply choose to be greedy and put Epic money above their customers. What the hell they expected out of from this? That they could shit on people heads and people would applaud them?

These outings "if you don't buy then we don't come on PC" are just vents coming out of bad managers. Which mentally sane person in this industry thinks that your can raise sales by blackmailing your potential customer? Those are the words of frustrated management that knows it took a healthy IP and ruined it for short term greed but doesn't want to admit its errors so it blames others (the consumers). It's nothing new, that's a common trait among powerful people (and I'm not playing anti elite populist here, it just happens that I have a passion for history from middle age to modern era in general, it's how human societies go... these are the kind of people that usually get in power :) )

So really. They don't want to sell nest Metro on PC because the shit they made? Who fucking cares. These are the golden ages of PC gaming. If they don't sell on PC then it's them deliberately choosing to lose money. And if THQ shareholders don't push to fire the guy who wrote that bullshit and start to mend the relationship with their customers but instead choose to go full kamikatze... bye bye! We won't miss them. Some another publisher will make sure that any gap they leave will be filled with new awesome IPs.

In all this story really we consumers are the strong side. We may lose a game or two true, but we simply cannot lose the war, unless as I said before Gabe goes nuts and Valve and Epic agree to make a monopoly cartel. Who I'm really sorry for are the devs that genuinely worked with passion on Metro games and now see their legacy ruined by people who has 0 interest in gaming but only think on make quick money. These are the sole helpless victims in all this affair. More so since it looks like Deep Silver decide to play dirty by using them as meat shields in their total war vs the whole PC gaming world. :(

Edit:
Ok looking at the last minute link of Nevertheless it seems that Deep Silver did not in fact played this dirty and is not using 4A games devs as meat shields. Nice to see that. Now I don't think they can just trash their exclusivity contract with Epic without paying a gazillion penalty so they won't just U-turn on this one. Let's hope they learnt something from this and don't further damage their own business. If publishers stop signing exclusive deals with Epic out of consumer rage backlash fear, Epic will be forced to abandon its monopolistic aims and switch to a healthy competitive strategy. To the satisfaction of everyone (except Epic itself I guess).


Last edited by Mal on 4 February 2019 at 5:57 pm UTC