Vivox, the voice chat middleware used by a number of games that doesn't currently support Linux recently suggested a developer just drop Linux support. They've now reached out to me with a statement.
It all started when one of the developers from Alderon Games, who are currently working on the MMO dinosaur game Path of Titans, posted this response they received from Vivox into our Discord channel about their request for Linux support (click to enlarge):
This was then later posted onto Reddit by the developer, where they got a lot of support from the Linux community.
I sent out a personal Twitter post to express my dissatisfaction with what they said and just today (and to my surprise), Vivox actually replied. Their statement, sent to me on Twitter starts with "To the Linux community and development friends," and then includes the below statement in an image:
I think they made the right call here, as it was an extremely bad look to suggest a developer drop an entire platform just to use their middleware. We're a smaller platform, sure but it's still not something anyone at Vivox should be suggesting to potential partners. You don't win people over, by doing things like that.
Also interesting to see them suggest they may bring Vivox to Linux in future, which would help future Linux ports be made (and likely be needed for Google Stadia support too since it uses Linux/Vulkan).
Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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Good to see them clear up a misunderstanding - but things like these keep happening. I don't understand why. :S:
5 Likes, Who?
gradyvuckovic 1 May 2019
Imma keep it real with ya chief - That response is 100% PR Talk
They got busted. All of that response is just code for:
"We're not going to support Linux until we think it's financially worth it and we still don't think it is and truth be told we don't think it's financially worth it for our customers to do so either, but now we know developers who ask about Linux support might rat on us to reddit to make us look bad, we're going to give a canned 'Sorry we do not currently support Linux at this time but we might support Linux in the future.' response next time a developer asks about Linux support instead of our honest opinion."
That last line in particular makes it clear, don't expect Vivox to support Linux any time soon.
They got busted. All of that response is just code for:
"We're not going to support Linux until we think it's financially worth it and we still don't think it is and truth be told we don't think it's financially worth it for our customers to do so either, but now we know developers who ask about Linux support might rat on us to reddit to make us look bad, we're going to give a canned 'Sorry we do not currently support Linux at this time but we might support Linux in the future.' response next time a developer asks about Linux support instead of our honest opinion."
That last line in particular makes it clear, don't expect Vivox to support Linux any time soon.
55 Likes, Who?
Imma keep it real with ya chief - That response is 100% PR Talk
They got busted. All of that response is just code for:
"We're not going to support Linux until we think it's financially worth it and we still don't think it is and truth be told we don't think it's financially worth it for our customers to do so either, but now we know developers who ask about Linux support might rat on us to reddit to make us look bad, we're going to give a canned 'Sorry we do not currently support Linux at this time but we might support Linux in the future.' response next time a developer asks about Linux support instead of our honest opinion."
That last line in particular makes it clear, don't expect Vivox to support Linux any time soon.
Basically yea, but it's nice to know they'll keep their opinions to themselves from now on. The Vivox guy wanted to make a sale and earn a customer, and that was a seriously scummy way to do it.
16 Likes, Who?
I wonder just how many minutes it would take for say Ryan Gordon to port this to Linux...
edit: And I see that they have versions for macOS and Android so it's more or less already ported.
Last edited by F.Ultra on 1 May 2019 at 3:09 pm UTC
edit: And I see that they have versions for macOS and Android so it's more or less already ported.
Last edited by F.Ultra on 1 May 2019 at 3:09 pm UTC
11 Likes, Who?
Developers should just use Mumble which is open source. No need for any closed middleware for what is already available as FOSS.
25 Likes, Who?
slaapliedje 1 May 2019
This should just be a sign that developers should make sure their middleware aren't made by shitheads. :)
6 Likes, Who?
Honest question: what does Vivox provide that Mumble wouldn't? Servers?
(Bl**dy h*ll, their website is absolutely awful. All style and precious little substance. That would be a red flag to me before I even started.)
(Bl**dy h*ll, their website is absolutely awful. All style and precious little substance. That would be a red flag to me before I even started.)
9 Likes, Who?
We're not going to support Linux until we think it's financially worth itImagine a business seeking profits, the horror!
truth be told we don't think it's financially worth it for our customers to do so eitherWe all wish it wasn't, but there is a lot of truth to this. Just ask most indie devs whether their last Linux port was financially worth it.
we're going to give a canned 'Sorry we do not currently support Linux at this time but we might support Linux in the future.'What? That's the correct response to give!
2 Likes, Who?
Well, i know which company would be out of the picture if i ever have anything to say in any software development ^^
The official statement is obviously just a PR-Stunt to minimize the shitstorm...
The question others asked - what this offers over mumble - is a good one though
The official statement is obviously just a PR-Stunt to minimize the shitstorm...
The question others asked - what this offers over mumble - is a good one though
2 Likes, Who?
"We're not going to support Linux until we think it's financially worth it and we still don't think it is and truth be told we don't think it's financially worth it for our customers to do so either, but now we know developers who ask about Linux support might rat on us to reddit to make us look bad, we're going to give a canned 'Sorry we do not currently support Linux at this time but we might support Linux in the future.' response next time a developer asks about Linux support instead of our honest opinion."
Yes, that's how I would read it too. I'm not happy to hear that answer, but unfortunately I have to admit that it holds a lot of truth at this moment imho.
3 Likes, Who?
Imagine a business seeking profits, the horror!So? Obviously corporations exist to make a profit but that fact doesn't make their actions infallible. That's like a company dumping waste into the ocean and someone defending them with "They're just doing that to maximize profit" like duh of course but their profit-driven motive doesn't excuse their actions from criticism.
8 Likes, Who?
Developers should just use Mumble which is open source. No need for any closed middleware for what is already available as FOSS.
I have been reading some misinformation on generic PC gaming sites the past few months that Mumble stopped development in 2017 because "everyone uses Discord now." If generic PC gaming sites are saying that, I'd imagine quite a few people believe it.
0 Likes
Developers should just use Mumble which is open source. No need for any closed middleware for what is already available as FOSS.
I have been reading some misinformation on generic PC gaming sites the past few months that Mumble stopped development in 2017 because "everyone uses Discord now." If generic PC gaming sites are saying that, I'd imagine quite a few people believe it.
I think that is because Mumble have the same big problem that Gimp have. Compared to any of there Closed Source counter parts they have a very very very very slow development pace. And the gap between the two are getting bigger each year that pass.
TeamSpeak 5 is about to make it out of beta and have been planned and created around the idea of fighting against Discord. Mumble is nowhere near that. Discord have set new rules for online communications for small communities TS is now playing by these rules, Mumble is still playing by the old rules. The day Mumble will finally move away from that it will be way too late.
Developers should just use Mumble which is open source. No need for any closed middleware for what is already available as FOSS.
Maybe Mumble is not adapted for that use case. I mean in integration within a game engine blending in the game UI. I'm also not sure that mumble provides any 3D space voice chat for in game use. Mumble is just a Voice/Text software after all as we meant it a few years ago.
0 Likes
Maybe Mumble is not adapted for that use case. I mean in integration within a game engine blending in the game UI. I'm also not sure that mumble provides any 3D space voice chat for in game use. Mumble is just a Voice/Text software after all as we meant it a few years ago.
If you mean positional audio, Mumble has that:
https://wiki.mumble.info/wiki/Positional-Audio
https://wiki.mumble.info/wiki/HackPositionalAudio
Last edited by Shmerl on 1 May 2019 at 7:57 pm UTC
1 Likes, Who?
Maybe Mumble is not adapted for that use case. I mean in integration within a game engine blending in the game UI. I'm also not sure that mumble provides any 3D space voice chat for in game use. Mumble is just a Voice/Text software after all as we meant it a few years ago.
If you mean positional audio, Mumble has that:
https://wiki.mumble.info/wiki/Positional-Audio
https://wiki.mumble.info/wiki/HackPositionalAudio
Ok than you, I was really not sure about that. But the question still persist could Mumble work as an SDK in ful integration in a game engine and not just a 3rd party software.
That seam to be the only goal of Vivox as it is giving a fully integrated SDK in two game engines. I guess mumble as it is FOSS could be modified to do it (https://github.com/BananaHemic/Mumble-Unity is an example of that) but there don't seem to be any movement made from Mumble devs of the FOSS community to support that at the moment.
Last edited by DerpFox on 1 May 2019 at 8:05 pm UTC
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I think that is because Mumble have the same big problem that Gimp have. Compared to any of there Closed Source counter parts they have a very very very very slow development pace. And the gap between the two are getting bigger each year that pass.Is that actually true of Gimp? There's a gap and there's always been a gap, but it's unclear to me that it's widening.
What I've noticed about closed vs open development is that closed development tends to be a series of sprints where open development is a bit closer to a marathon (albeit definitely with fast and slow phases). With closed, there tends to be a big effort to make a deadline, and then some bugfixes, and then nothing much for a while until they start planning the next release, and then another big effort. With open, it's more like an ongoing slower effort punctuated by rushes of enthusiasm or arrivals of big new revitalizing individuals or groups. People sometimes look at the average pace of open and compare with the sprint phase of closed, but that's misleading.
Total speed depends on market share either way--closed because big market share means big funding, open because big market share tends to be reflected in widespread interest and so more contributors. But it's clear that open is capable of matching or nearly matching the speed of closed based on a much smaller market share. Contrariwise, in areas where open gains a market share lead, closed tends to gradually shrivel up and die; new competitors to dominant open source software tend to themselves be open. So, per unit usage share, I think it could be argued that over time open source development is probably faster, even if closed development is faster in the sprints.
Gimp of course has a much smaller share than certain closed competitors, so it suffers. But even so, I'm not clear that the gap between is widening.
Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 1 May 2019 at 9:14 pm UTC
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What really irritates me about that is why middleware develpers would care about end user marketshare at all. We are not their customers. Game developers are their customers and what counts for a middleware developer is the count of projects that choose to not use their product because of missing features like linux support...
2 Likes, Who?
Ok it's been some time but doesn't Wine provide libs and tools to compile your project on which makes it compatible with it. I have not used it personally and lately I'm sparsely using Wine (just for playing wow from time to time) so correct me if I'm wrong but I do remember that blizz once said their are using it and thus not release games like wow natively on Linux (don't remember if it was really a blue post).
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Imma keep it real with ya chief - That response is 100% PR TalkOf course it is. However, we've seen enough arrogant responses to questions about Linux to appreciate a polite PR response.
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