Steam's top releases of May show why Steam Play is needed for Linux

Quoting: SalvatosI think the ideology at our roots actually plays more of a role than we may sometimes admit. Just seeing Paradox recently saying that they will still consider porting future games to Linux on a case-by-case basis even though they have barely been turning a profit on them if at all, to me, is quite impressive. Many companies would (and have) just give up on us completely and choose easier ways to make more money (the DLC example being a very good one).

I'm not too much of an idealist, but in this case our track record shows that we can at least keep some hope alive despite slim odds :)

Absolutely. And I love that enthusiasm.
But I still think we need to "adjust our aim" a little bit in this case. I hate to see "friends" (fellow Linux gamers) having a downright unrealistic approach to this whole situation.

Speaking of idealism, what disappoints me personally the most these last years is that it doesn't seem like "Steam on Linux" was the big break for our ultimate dream, "the year of the Linux desktop" where we see a significant influx of new Linux desktop users. For a long time I expected we would see a good jump of Linux desktop users, primarily from users out there that are already familiar with Linux as a server OS, but used Windows on their desktops.

For me personally, with Steam and Bitwig (music production software) coming to Linux roughly at the same time it were the last two pieces missing before I could finally switch 100% to Linux, and I thought there were more people like me.
So that's been my disappointment in all this.

Quoting: EikeWe won't get anywhere when we cannot even agree on what we're talking about. When I talk about the absolute number of Linux users having grown well in the last years, and you answer that the percentage is still low, this will lead nowhere. Neither when I'm talking about all games and you insist this would be only about AAA games.

... But when the absolute number is growing on our platform the absolute number is growing TENFOLD on that other platform. That's the point here. Steam grows! Steam gets more users overall, a few of them also on Linux, leading to our relative share of the market to stay stagnant.

You make a point about the absolute number like that's what matters in regards to supporting the platform - and it's not (from a market analyst perspective).

May I remind you that the theme here is, "Steam's top releases of May show why Steam Play is needed for Linux", with an accompanying discussion about whether or not Steam Play is a blessing or a curse in this respect. Would more of those games be made native if Steam Play wasn't there?
The myriad of indie devs, may the gods bless them of course, is simply not the topic. We got plenty indie devs. That part is pretty much covered.

The challenge ahead is to get the BIG companies to support Linux. Some here claim that thanks to Steam Play we will now never get that support. I claim that we will never get that support regardless, unless we get a SIGNIFICANT increase in market share. Like, up to at least TEN PERCENT. That massive jump. And that's totally unrealistic.

And THAT is why "Steam Play is needed for Linux".

Quoting: ShmerlLet's say you have a hundred million users altogether. Even 1% out of that, already means a million users. That's a lot. I.e. probably enough to cover your production costs through sales. Who cares if total number is hundred million? For viability, it's not the market share that matters, it's the size of your market (which means total number of your users).

Not when there is a more profitable alternative. When the alternative is that you earn more to cater better to your current platform than to embrace yet another platform, business sense is to stay where you are.
If the cost per sale on that new platform is higher than if you, for example, spend those resources on a new DLC instead - you do that.

This is crucial to understand for anyone doing business: The profit per product sold dictates where to put your efforts. To just go in plus, to have some profit, is not good enough. For each hour you spend on a less profitable market, you miss out on one hour worth of profit on the more profitable market.

Don't waste time on the less profitable markets unless there's nothing more to exploit in your current market and you need to focus on secondary markets for further growth - and by then you're probably better off defending your current position in the main market.

Quoting: BeamboomYou make a point about the absolute number like that's what matters in regards to supporting the platform - and it's not (from a market analyst perspective).

So, you think it's irelevant if there's one million potential Linux buyers or two million potential Linux buyers?

Quoting: BeamboomMay I remind you that the theme here is, "Steam's top releases of May show why Steam Play is needed for Linux", with an accompanying discussion about whether or not Steam Play is a blessing or a curse in this respect. Would more of those games be made native if Steam Play wasn't there?
The myriad of indie devs, may the gods bless them of course, is simply not the topic. We got plenty indie devs. That part is pretty much covered.

The challenge ahead is to get the BIG companies to support Linux.

Did you actually take a look at the list?
It's not about AAA.

Would more of them have come to Linux without Steam Play?
Maybe some, sure not all.
We don't know.
What we do know is developers already explicitly pointed at Steam Play when been asked for a native port.

Quoting: EikeSo, you think it's irelevant if there's one million potential Linux buyers or two million potential Linux buyers?

In essence: Yes. Please read my reply to Shmerl in the post above yours for the reason why.

Quoting: EikeDid you actually take a look at the list?
It's not about AAA.

Well, it's a good mix, since there's probably several hundred indies released for each individual AAA and this is a list for the time span of just one month.

But the point is, the most popular games. And that very much includes the AAA. And that's where we're almost entirely missing out. That is the massive hole in our landscape today.

Quoting: EikeWhat we do know is developers already explicitly pointed at Steam Play when been asked for a native port.

And to continue my not-so-humble presentation of my view on this: I don't really care if some indie says so. We got so, SO many various gorgeous little indie gems to choose from. We're covered, imo.

The AAAs, though. That's a totally different matter. We miss out on far, far too many of those. And without Wine/Steam Play, we'd continue to miss out on those until something really dramatic happened.


Last edited by Beamboom on 2 July 2019 at 11:06 am UTC

Quoting: BeamboomBut the point is, the most popular games. And that very much includes the AAA. And that's where we're almost entirely missing out. That is the massive hole in our landscape today.

I agree that we're lacking on AAA games, and that this will be especially hard to change.

But what I'm seeing in this list in my humble judgment actually to an astonishing degree excludes AAA.

*edit*
It's not like I don't want to play certain games. It's just that most of those are not AAA. So I do care for the indies saying that they don't want to port. Due to Proton.

Maybe we've come to the big difference here:
Your hope for AAA games made by ROI maximizing oriented stock corporations is minimal, rightfully so, and so your hopes are on playing such games via Proton,
while my chances for great indie games made by developers who got their heart invested in them (still) coming to Linux are lowered by Proton.


Last edited by Eike on 2 July 2019 at 10:03 am UTC

Quoting: EikeYour hope for AAA games made by ROI maximizing oriented stock corporations is minimal, rightfully so, and so your hopes are on playing such games via Proton, while my chances for great indie games made by developers who got their heart invested in them (still) coming to Linux are lowered by Proton.

I believe this sums it up exceptionally well, Eike.

But if I may ask:
From your perspective, all things considered, does it really matter if Proton or not as long as it works 100% out of the box and on par with native builds? I mean, it's less work for the devs (ergo more profitable per sale) and the same experience for us?

And even for indie games, the amount of games made accessible via Proton is much higher than the theoretical, potential amount of native builds that would have been made if not for Proton. So doesn't that make Proton a Good Thing(TM) either way?


Last edited by Beamboom on 2 July 2019 at 11:19 am UTC

Quoting: BeamboomBut if I may ask:
From your perspective, all things considered, does it really matter if Proton or not as long as it works 100% out of the box and on par with native builds? I mean, it's less work for the devs (ergo more profitable per sale) and the same experience for us?

You didn't ask me but I hope you don't mind me answering:
At the moment with current market share it does not matter. Linux is either not profitable or not profitable enough. Proton will allow developers to support us. But when our market share reaches a point where we have valid reasons to ask for a native port, then it matters. When and if that time ever comes, "No Tux No Buck" will be as meaningful response as it ever can be.

Quoting: LinuxwarperWhen and if that time ever comes, "No Tux No Buck" will be as meaningful response as it ever can be.

... But why? Why does it matter, if Proton provides a 100% working out of the box experience on par with a native build?
If you experience no difference?

Quoting: Beamboom... But why? Why does it matter, if Proton provides a 100% working out of the box experience on par with a native build?
If you experience no difference?

Because them developing their games properly for Linux will help the ecosystem, and there is also the risk of Proton not working anymore. When devs develop for Linux they will experience issues, file bugs and then get it all fixed. Linux gaming and desktop will benefit. This is what Valve experienced when they began their Linux journey. They contributed to improving drivers, and now we are benefiting from that work. If developers continue to rely on Steam Play Linux ecosystem will not grow as much as it can if they do. But I want to emphasize, that I'm talking of a hypothetical situation where we achieve market share of 5-10%, which will give us the right demand. Right now I find it unreasonable to demand native ports as Linux is not profitable or profitable enough.


Last edited by Linuxwarper on 2 July 2019 at 4:19 pm UTC

Quoting: Linuxwarperthere is also the risk of Proton not working anymore. When devs develop for Linux they will experience issues, file bugs and then get it all fixed.

Not to discount the rest of your argument, but I don't find this part to be particularly tied to Proton. We've seen native ports (and software in general) become broken and never get fixed, and Proton support doesn't have to be a one-and-done thing: they can keep supporting and patching the game to maintain Proton compatibility. It's more a matter of how committed a dev is to supporting Linux than how they choose to do it.

Quoting: BeamboomDon't waste time on the less profitable markets unless there's nothing more to exploit in your current market and you need to focus on secondary markets for further growth - and by then you're probably better off defending your current position in the main market.

Not when you are aiming to reach more users, instead of "I want moar $$$". It's not about greed, but about creators increasing their audience. This topic really is about the commercialization of art in general. If you view art as pure business, that art quickly becomes garbage.


Last edited by Shmerl on 2 July 2019 at 4:48 pm UTC

Quoting: Beamboom

Quoting: LinuxwarperWhen and if that time ever comes, "No Tux No Buck" will be as meaningful response as it ever can be.

... But why? Why does it matter, if Proton provides a 100% working out of the box experience on par with a native build?
If you experience no difference?

Mind you, that is a rather big if. "Experience very little difference" I'll buy. But in theory, all else being equal, Proton has to lose a bit of efficiency compared to a native version, not so? And targets will move--not so much existing games, which will probably keep working on Steamplay at least as well as native Linux games. But new games will keep on doing new things, relying on new Windows-only middleware that it will take time for Proton to get working. So for a Linux relying on Proton, there will always be the risk of delays--or even complete failure to get something running--even if we gain market share that would otherwise guarantee same-day releases.
So as long as we're relying on Proton, Linux will be a second class gaming OS.

And then there is, as Linuxwarper mentioned, the ecosystem. If people are making Linux games, they are using libraries and middleware that run on Linux, probably cross-platform, so such libraries will gain prominence/marketshare. If those libraries and middleware running on Linux are open source, they may be helping to improve them. If people are making Windows games, they are likely using libraries and middleware that are not cross-platform. And these libraries and middleware may well represent more of a "moving target" than Windows itself; near as I can figure half the problem with Wine has never been Windows itself, it's all the dang .dlls.

So yeah, I think it matters. Proton will not still be a solution for a Linux that gains a stack of market share. It's a convenience today, and hopefully a bridge to a better situation tomorrow, and it seems to be very well written and I have tons of respect for the people who wrote the code, but it's not the ideal.

In the meantime, We loose marketshare...

Quoting: LinuxwarperBecause them developing their games properly for Linux will help the ecosystem

Yeah, ok, you put this in the context of the broader picture. I do agree with you from that perspective - it will undobtly benefit the overall ecosystem of Linux.

Quoting: ShmerlNot when you are aiming to reach more users, instead of "I want moar $$$". It's not about greed, but about creators increasing their audience. This topic really is about the commercialization of art in general. If you view art as pure business, that art quickly becomes garbage.

Gaming is business. A major player in the entertainment industry, an industry with millions of artists doing fantastic work, from musicians to actors, 3D artists, makeup artists, game designers, composers, painters, map designers, you name it. Art and business can easily go hand in hand, in many cases great art is also good business.

The gaming market is massive. No indie has tapped all the potential on their current platform(s). Nobody needs to support Linux in order to reach more gamers. They need to be particularly interested specifically in our segment. The rest have millions to struggle with reaching out to on just that one platform. Or branch out to the consoles, where a new massive market awaits.

And it's not about greed. It's about making sensible decisions. Even the most credible artist want to survive and live on their art. And to survive you need to run a healthy business. Ideology is what you can afford when your business is doing good.

Quoting: Purple Library GuyMind you, that is a rather big if.

Absolutely. Indeed it is. As experienced myself, with the current generation of Proton.
But - IF - it works out of the box (and indeed many titles already do), I really do not mind if I lose a few frames a second. If that's all I have to sacrifice from not running a native binary.
IF.

Add to this the sad(?) fact that indeed Proton have been observed to perform better than the ported games (compared to the Windows performance), and this picture is really starting to get a bit convoluted - and really quite interesting.


Last edited by Beamboom on 2 July 2019 at 7:08 pm UTC

Quoting: Purple Library GuyAnd targets will move--not so much existing games, which will probably keep working on Steamplay at least as well as native Linux games. But new games will keep on doing new things, relying on new Windows-only middleware that it will take time for Proton to get working. So for a Linux relying on Proton, there will always be the risk of delays--or even complete failure to get something running--even if we gain market share that would otherwise guarantee same-day releases.

Actually, in my view, this is the point where our (hypothetical) increased market share starts to work in our favour. Devs will be used to the income from Linux gamers making up a substantial share, thanks to Proton. They'll have a clear choice between building software with cross-compatibility in mind and cashing in on all sales at release, or spending additional time (and wasted effort) after release to make their game playable on Linux and grab the rest of the pie. From a practical standpoint, and again this depends on Linux being a sizable market, the choice to rely on cross-platform middleware from the start becomes basically common sense (well, not that it isn't already, but it becomes more obvious to people with dollar bills in their eyes). Companies that act only on profit not only want as much money as possible, they want it as fast as possible.

But either way, we're not even close to that yet. For now we need to continue our slow growth and rely on motivated and like-minded developers who care more about getting their passion projects into the hands of more people while making a decent living than about squeezing more and more money out of our pockets. Fortunately, those do still exist :)

Quoting: SalvatosNot to discount the rest of your argument, but I don't find this part to be particularly tied to Proton. We've seen native ports (and software in general) become broken and never get fixed, and Proton support doesn't have to be a one-and-done thing: they can keep supporting and patching the game to maintain Proton compatibility. It's more a matter of how committed a dev is to supporting Linux than how they choose to do it.

Quoting: BeamboomAdd to this the sad(?) fact that indeed Proton have been observed to perform better than the ported games (compared to the Windows performance), and this picture is really starting to get a bit convoluted - and really quite interesting.

Any software that is abandoned will sooner or later break as things change. It's nothing special to Linux as you all know. But what's to take note is that on Linux this happen more. Developers make a port, release it then they abandon or neglect the game. There are other factors that make it more likely that "native"/native ports will have higher risk of issues; developers have less experience with Linux, they have used software components that can cause issues (D3D, DX sound, their own anti cheat solution etc), sloppy development and so on.

Deep Silver supporting Steam Machines is what spurred the Metro Last Light port. Steam Machines didn't materialize to be the big thing they hoped for, so they have abandoned the port. When you go to adjust graphic settings all you have is a quality slider, and that's not only issue with that "native" port.

Native games underperforming or breaking is because of developers and not inherently because developing games on Linux is bad. Even Feral can't do anything about this, with Tomb Raider underperforming compared to Windows. If Feral was on the task to make a Linux version, while the game was being developed, you can bet the performance would be comparable to Windows.


Last edited by Linuxwarper on 2 July 2019 at 7:36 pm UTC

Quoting: GuestYou've pretty much hit the nail on the head here. There's no reason a native GNU/Linux game can't perform as well as a Windows one, but porting after the fact with a complex codebase that's designed around another platform, that's going to be troublesome no matter what (and is why there are so many crappy console to desktop ports for Windows).

Doom 2016 runs so well through wine because it's very similar to just using some cross-platform screen creation and input handling. The entire engine is designed around Vulkan, but I also suspect designed around a POSIX environment. Because of the server side, they had full support for case-sensitive filesystems in the core of the engine. All their memory management is perfectly compatible with anything - again, they need it to be because of server side. So in a very real sense, it was development with a native *nix environment in mind, and the end result is a flawless running game.

If you can get in while the game is being developed, and support GNU/Linux at that stage, then it becomes a much better end product compared to porting after the fact.

(Kinda hoping Stadia will help this aspect of gaming - even if there's no official native port, the design of games might progress to a stage where they're much better aligned with GNU/Linux environments.)

This whole ordeal with native vs wine is precisely why I am convinced Proton is a benefit more than anything else. Yes, it can and will make developers decide against a native port because it runs with Proton but that I think is for better. Some developers are in dire situations and may not be able to justify a port (costs to much), and so a Proton route would work for them. While others may be lazy, but if that's their mindset then it's likely that they would have developed Linux release poorly. Just to get it out of the way and check that "Linux Kickstarter" promise.

I am confident Stadia will help Proton question is just how much. As we already know the game developers will need to use Vulkan. So with that in mind these are the noteworthy games:
Baldursgate 3 - Previous games have had Linux release
Borderlands 3 - Previous games have had Linux release
Destiny 2 - Releases on Steam. VAC or/and Steam trustmatchmaking for anti cheat?
Doom Eternal - DRM free or will Denuvo version work with Linux?
Metro Exodus - Feral magic
Shadow of.. - Feral magic highly likely

More games will come from other developers as well.


Last edited by Linuxwarper on 2 July 2019 at 9:25 pm UTC

Just going to leave this here, platinum rated game compatible with Proton just released a native Linux port of their game.

Clearly Proton existing didn't kill that native port. In fact, likely because the game had a platinum rating, it probably got a stack of Linux gamers as a result, Linux gamers who looked at ProtonDB and said "I'll buy anything platinum since that seems like a safe bet'. The devs would have seen those stats before doing their Linux port.

Quoting: LinuxwarperNative games underperforming or breaking is because of developers and not inherently because developing games on Linux is bad.

Absolutely. There's many examples (outside gaming) where the native Linux version outperforms the native Windows version. No reason why it shouldn't be the same with games. If - IF - they are truly native code. But:

Quoting: LinuxwarperEven Feral can't do anything about this, with Tomb Raider underperforming compared to Windows. If Feral was on the task to make a Linux version, while the game was being developed, you can bet the performance would be comparable to Windows.

... The uncomfortable reality that too many miss in this, is that from a technical point of view there's not really that much of a difference between the AAA "ports" and running a game in Proton. Feral uses their own set of libraries to translate APIs as well - that's how they could release such big games relatively fast after a release, and with an as stable performance as they have (very few Linux related issues). And this is the very reason why we get an overhead and loss of performance compared to Windows. It's unavoidable.

Heck, people even called Virtual Programming releases for "ports" - their work is practically Wine bottles in closed source software.

So in may ways, if we call their work ports we might just as well call what Proton does as a "generic porting tool" of Windows games.

And it is also worth noticing that the work on Proton does indeed contribute to the Linux ecosystem - to my understanding more than Feral has, to pitch those two against each other.

So the reality here really is not black/white at all.


Last edited by Beamboom on 3 July 2019 at 9:56 am UTC