Godot Engine continues advancing Vulkan support, adopts new Code of Conduct

Quoting: TheSHEEEPThe lead developer himself clarified some things - which all sound fine to me.
I asked if they should maybe add a tl;dr of that to the statement itself, which he said "might be a good idea".

Juan is awesome and is the reason I Patreon Godot as well as GOL. As Mirv points out, it's a shame that all the focus on this thread is on the CoC when Godot 4.0 is just around the corner and IS GOING TO BE AWESOME! And I don't even use it. I just see guys like this developing, in Linux, on Godot and I know it's special and deserves support.

So, my advice - go support it. Incredible project, allowing other, incredible projects to exist. $5 a month to help make that happen? Hell yes.


Last edited by scaine on 5 November 2019 at 4:01 pm UTC

Quoting: TheSHEEEPBut whatever happens that is not (either publicly or privately) between workers/team members but between a worker and other, unrelated people (or no people at all, just someone voicing opinions), should have no consequences beyond affecting inter-personal relations at work if it becomes known.

If a member of a community has, for example, publicly voiced homophobic opinions, that will reflect poorly on the entire community. Also, LGBT members of the community would find it hard, if not impossible, to work with him afterwards.

Quoting: devland

Quoting: TheSHEEEPBut whatever happens that is not (either publicly or privately) between workers/team members but between a worker and other, unrelated people (or no people at all, just someone voicing opinions), should have no consequences beyond affecting inter-personal relations at work if it becomes known.

If a member of a community has, for example, publicly voiced homophobic opinions, that will reflect poorly on the entire community.

Yes, and that is nonsensical collective punishment that I do not support.
"Someone of you did something I do not agree with, unrelated to the project, so now I hate all of you, and the project, especially if that person's head doesn't roll".
If that screeching is the best people can do, I can't wait for the next meteorite...

Plus, it is very much "guilty until proven innocent".
To begin with, what is or isn't homophobic is very much subjective. I can remember a pretty harmless soap bottle causing quite a stir...
And even if it was something really serious: Maybe that person was drunk, or maybe just in a really bad space, or, or, or... Those are not excuses, but there are a lot of reasons to give second chances and not just pre-emptively exclude everyone who might disagree on something.

Quoting: devlandAlso, LGBT members of the community would find it hard, if not impossible, to work with him afterwards.

Maybe, and that would be a reason to talk about it and see what can be done - and if nothing can be done, then termination (of the contract! geez...) might be the result. If that member is set in their ways, that will be for the best.

But you don't see people calling out for "Okay, that's not alright, let's talk about it". You instead see the screeching "Off with their heads!" Twitter mob - and even if heads do roll, that project will forever be tainted in the eyes of those, never to be forgiven.

I remember the case of a guy who was working on a game on KS. It became known that that guy was following some groups on Deviantart (or sth like that, doesn't matter). Among those a group producing some Nazi memorabilia art (anything from iron crosses to big boobed nazi anime to tanks) - and a foot fetish group, which I find way more disturbing -, he also engaged in some forum RPs playing a nazi.
You know how this story ends, right? I don't even need to finish it.

You can support that exclusive mindset - or try to be more reasonable, which thankfully the Godot devs have chosen to be, it seems.

Quoting: TheSHEEEP

Quoting: KimyrielleWould I want to have a misogynist in a project I am leading? Absolutely NOT!!! Not even if their code was the best thing since sliced bread. I haul their sorry butt out of the door, period. And I find this the most natural thing on Earth, really.

If that misogynist in your project behaves just fine towards everyone in the project and the users and does a good job - what does it matter what views he holds privately?

Wait, what does that have to do with anything? Weren't you arguing that the point was that they should be able to exercise free speech while working in the project and so, in this example, act like a misogynist? If they're restraining themselves, that's back to the code of conduct you don't like.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPit is behaviour like that which drives more and more people to the extreme sides of the spectrum while not changing anyone's mind - quite the opposite, actually, it only reinforces their views and theories.

Mmm, no, I don't think that's the case--or rather, it may be the case for individual examples, but not overall. That is, sure, individual misogynists or whatever who get "policed" are likely to resent it and perhaps even become more misogynist, or more racist or whatever. At least for a while.
But in the broader picture, people get socialized by the way they see people act. So for instance, if kids in high school see their peers bullying people for being "fucking faggots", they will assume that's what you do and vaguely assume there must be some reason for it. Social environments set norms, which people (except for a few nonconformists) tend to follow. And once those norms are followed, they are for better or worse internalized by many as how things should be. So if you set up explicit norms, sure, people who were used to a different, more hostile or racist or sexist or whatever norm will for a while at least be annoyed. But all the people who were just going along, acting like assholes because that's what you do, will go along with the new norm too, and new people coming in will just absorb the new norm naturally. So for better or worse, such things are fairly effective.

They are not completely effective, mind you. I really don't think anyone's going to end racism by setting up some codes of conduct. Racism persists because oligarchy persists, and racism is useful to oligarchs, and they take measures to encourage it and give people a stake in it.


Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 5 November 2019 at 5:13 pm UTC

Quoting: TheSHEEEP

Quoting: devland

Quoting: TheSHEEEPBut whatever happens that is not (either publicly or privately) between workers/team members but between a worker and other, unrelated people (or no people at all, just someone voicing opinions), should have no consequences beyond affecting inter-personal relations at work if it becomes known.

If a member of a community has, for example, publicly voiced homophobic opinions, that will reflect poorly on the entire community.

Yes, and that is nonsensical collective punishment that I do not support.
"Someone of you did something I do not agree with, unrelated to the project, so now I hate all of you, and the project, especially if that person's head doesn't roll".
If that screeching is the best people can do, I can't wait for the next meteorite...

I don't know who made the original comment but as a part of the Godot CoC team I can assure you that this is not policy for regular project members. Someone who expresses, for instance, homophobic beliefs in public will however not be selected for any (semi) official Godot positions. Think of part of any Github teams, GSoC mentors etc.

It is however not in any way a policy that someone who expresses themselves would face consequences just for that. Of course, expressing such a belief inside a Godot channel would still be considered a violation of our CoC.

Quoting: Purple Library GuyWeren't you arguing that the point was that they should be able to exercise free speech while working in the project and so, in this example, act like a misogynist?

I never said that anyone should be able to freely take the piss on other team members or users, that would be pretty damn stupid.

But as long as they keep their misogynist acting outside of the project and interactions with its users, and as long as it doesn't become extreme with calls to violence or stuff like that, there is no problem.

Quoting: Purple Library GuyIf they're restraining themselves, that's back to the code of conduct you don't like.

The code is fine, for the most part. Just too much room for abuse, especially the "in private" part, which is by now confirmed to mean "in private among the community" as I suspected all along.

Wow, still arguing semantics, everyone? As long as you're now all happy, positve Patreons of this awesome project, carry on. If not, move on. :D

Quoting: TheSHEEEP

Quoting: Purple Library GuyWeren't you arguing that the point was that they should be able to exercise free speech while working in the project and so, in this example, act like a misogynist?

I never said that anyone should be able to freely take the piss on other team members or users, that would be pretty damn stupid.

But as long as they keep their misogynist acting outside of the project and interactions with its users, and as long as it doesn't become extreme with calls to violence or stuff like that, there is no problem.

Quoting: Purple Library GuyIf they're restraining themselves, that's back to the code of conduct you don't like.

The code is fine, for the most part. Just too much room for abuse, especially the "in private" part, which is by now confirmed to mean "in private among the community" as I suspected all along.

Ah, I see. It's actually amazing how little, if anything, we're arguing about then.

Quoting: TMM

Quoting: TheSHEEEPYes, and that is nonsensical collective punishment that I do not support.
"Someone of you did something I do not agree with, unrelated to the project, so now I hate all of you, and the project, especially if that person's head doesn't roll".

I don't know who made the original comment but as a part of the Godot CoC team I can assure you that this is not policy for regular project members.

You say that now, and I do hope it is so. But we will see about that if/when the first real shitstorm hits and the
mob comes knocking, torches lighted.
It is very easy to give in to peer pressure, hoping it will make the problem go away.

Quoting: TMMSomeone who expresses, for instance, homophobic beliefs in public will however not be selected for any (semi) official Godot positions. Think of part of any Github teams, GSoC mentors etc.

That's your decision to make. It is your project.
Roles that include representing the project or team (say, a community manager) obviously couldn't be staffed with someone who expressed views many won't agree with.
But you will have to live with people not understanding how a persons views on unrelated topics affect their ability to be a GSoC mentor, for example.

Quoting: TMMIt is however not in any way a policy that someone who expresses themselves would face consequences just for that.

I am not sure how this statement fits with the last one.

Never understood the whole issue with public/private to be honest. If I start a project, take regular contributions from three people, then discovered one of them was an unapologetic racist on an unrelated forum... you think I'm gonna want to work with that asshole?

Nah. And if I do, I'll likely lose (or at least risk losing) my other two contributors.

Ditch them. And note that I don't make that decision based on a CoC. I might have one, but my decision is based on my feelings as an inclusive, supportive, tolerant person. I just don't tolerate racists, say. The CoC only serves two purposes. First, it sets out my stall. It says, this is who I am and what I believe. And second, it helps reinforce the decisions I've already made as a not-scumbag-human.

Juan's already said all this, as TheSHEEEP linked to earlier though.

Now go support this insanely awesome project!