The open source Nintendo Switch Emulator 'yuzu' now has a Vulkan renderer

Quoting: DesumYes, like those half dozen scholars interested in stories like Beowulf other ancient works.

Yes, exactly like. And I was serious when I said I think scholarship is important. I've taken Beowulf courses myself. But nonetheless, you were giving an overstated impression of your point.
(In fact, I probably like copyright less than you do; it's an antiquated system intended to preserve the profits and control of owners of early industrial revolution printing presses. To this day it remains mainly a tool for top-down class warfare, but now it's a tool poorly adapted to current technologies. There are other possible models for encouraging and supporting creative work. But IMO the biggest problems with the current copyright model aren't really about the deep future)

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: DesumYes, like those half dozen scholars interested in stories like Beowulf other ancient works.

Yes, exactly like. And I was serious when I said I think scholarship is important. I've taken Beowulf courses myself. But nonetheless, you were giving an overstated impression of your point.
(In fact, I probably like copyright less than you do; it's an antiquated system intended to preserve the profits and control of owners of early industrial revolution printing presses. To this day it remains mainly a tool for top-down class warfare, but now it's a tool poorly adapted to current technologies. There are other possible models for encouraging and supporting creative work. But IMO the biggest problems with the current copyright model aren't really about the deep future)

Copyright paired with a short duration is worth the trade for the works in the arts it generates. But that's another topic. If you are in favor of doing away with copyright in total, whatever issue is there you could have with piracy? Even I don't advocate making unauthorized copies of games less than twenty years old and passing them around. But without any copyright, that is exactly what one could do.

Quoting: Desum

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: DesumYes, like those half dozen scholars interested in stories like Beowulf other ancient works.

Yes, exactly like. And I was serious when I said I think scholarship is important. I've taken Beowulf courses myself. But nonetheless, you were giving an overstated impression of your point.
(In fact, I probably like copyright less than you do; it's an antiquated system intended to preserve the profits and control of owners of early industrial revolution printing presses. To this day it remains mainly a tool for top-down class warfare, but now it's a tool poorly adapted to current technologies. There are other possible models for encouraging and supporting creative work. But IMO the biggest problems with the current copyright model aren't really about the deep future)

Copyright paired with a short duration is worth the trade for the works in the arts it generates. But that's another topic. If you are in favor of doing away with copyright in total, whatever issue is there you could have with piracy? Even I don't advocate making unauthorized copies of games less than twenty years old and passing them around. But without any copyright, that is exactly what one could do.

You're reading into my words. I never said a thing about piracy, pro or con. Something can be true and yet there can be false arguments for it; I can agree that something is true but still insist that some specific reason has nothing to do with why. So for instance, I believe the world is round, but if someone was trying to convince a flat earther by saying that obviously, people's heads are round and God made the world in our (heads') image, I'd be saying hang on a moment.
So no, I'm not arguing against piracy, I'm just saying a particular argument you made for it is overblown. In fact I'm not particularly bothered by piracy as a rule, although I don't think it's a cut and dried question. For instance, I become a lot more uneasy if it's piracy of small developers' stuff. And I do think there is some value in sticking to the law until it can be changed, even if it's not a good law . . . although there are limits. And I'm not in favour of replacing copyright with nothing, I'm in favour of replacing it with something else. I could discuss some suggestions for that something else, but it would get pretty wordy. But without any alternative in place or even very widespread perception that there could be alternatives, I will have to accept copyright limping along a while longer. On the other hand, piracy helps make the current copyright regime gradually less viable, which is fine by me . . . so yeah, my views on it are complicated.

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Desum

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: DesumYes, like those half dozen scholars interested in stories like Beowulf other ancient works.

Yes, exactly like. And I was serious when I said I think scholarship is important. I've taken Beowulf courses myself. But nonetheless, you were giving an overstated impression of your point.
(In fact, I probably like copyright less than you do; it's an antiquated system intended to preserve the profits and control of owners of early industrial revolution printing presses. To this day it remains mainly a tool for top-down class warfare, but now it's a tool poorly adapted to current technologies. There are other possible models for encouraging and supporting creative work. But IMO the biggest problems with the current copyright model aren't really about the deep future)

Copyright paired with a short duration is worth the trade for the works in the arts it generates. But that's another topic. If you are in favor of doing away with copyright in total, whatever issue is there you could have with piracy? Even I don't advocate making unauthorized copies of games less than twenty years old and passing them around. But without any copyright, that is exactly what one could do.

You're reading into my words. I never said a thing about piracy, pro or con. Something can be true and yet there can be false arguments for it; I can agree that something is true but still insist that some specific reason has nothing to do with why. So for instance, I believe the world is round, but if someone was trying to convince a flat earther by saying that obviously, people's heads are round and God made the world in our (heads') image, I'd be saying hang on a moment.
So no, I'm not arguing against piracy, I'm just saying a particular argument you made for it is overblown. In fact I'm not particularly bothered by piracy as a rule, although I don't think it's a cut and dried question. For instance, I become a lot more uneasy if it's piracy of small developers' stuff. And I do think there is some value in sticking to the law until it can be changed, even if it's not a good law . . . although there are limits. And I'm not in favour of replacing copyright with nothing, I'm in favour of replacing it with something else. I could discuss some suggestions for that something else, but it would get pretty wordy. But without any alternative in place or even very widespread perception that there could be alternatives, I will have to accept copyright limping along a while longer. On the other hand, piracy helps make the current copyright regime gradually less viable, which is fine by me . . . so yeah, my views on it are complicated.

Oh, preserving cultural artifacts is an overblown reason? M'kay. Are video games the only thing you feel that way about?

Quoting: Desum

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Desum

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: DesumYes, like those half dozen scholars interested in stories like Beowulf other ancient works.

Yes, exactly like. And I was serious when I said I think scholarship is important. I've taken Beowulf courses myself. But nonetheless, you were giving an overstated impression of your point.
(In fact, I probably like copyright less than you do; it's an antiquated system intended to preserve the profits and control of owners of early industrial revolution printing presses. To this day it remains mainly a tool for top-down class warfare, but now it's a tool poorly adapted to current technologies. There are other possible models for encouraging and supporting creative work. But IMO the biggest problems with the current copyright model aren't really about the deep future)

Copyright paired with a short duration is worth the trade for the works in the arts it generates. But that's another topic. If you are in favor of doing away with copyright in total, whatever issue is there you could have with piracy? Even I don't advocate making unauthorized copies of games less than twenty years old and passing them around. But without any copyright, that is exactly what one could do.

You're reading into my words. I never said a thing about piracy, pro or con. Something can be true and yet there can be false arguments for it; I can agree that something is true but still insist that some specific reason has nothing to do with why. So for instance, I believe the world is round, but if someone was trying to convince a flat earther by saying that obviously, people's heads are round and God made the world in our (heads') image, I'd be saying hang on a moment.
So no, I'm not arguing against piracy, I'm just saying a particular argument you made for it is overblown. In fact I'm not particularly bothered by piracy as a rule, although I don't think it's a cut and dried question. For instance, I become a lot more uneasy if it's piracy of small developers' stuff. And I do think there is some value in sticking to the law until it can be changed, even if it's not a good law . . . although there are limits. And I'm not in favour of replacing copyright with nothing, I'm in favour of replacing it with something else. I could discuss some suggestions for that something else, but it would get pretty wordy. But without any alternative in place or even very widespread perception that there could be alternatives, I will have to accept copyright limping along a while longer. On the other hand, piracy helps make the current copyright regime gradually less viable, which is fine by me . . . so yeah, my views on it are complicated.

Oh, preserving cultural artifacts is an overblown reason? M'kay. Are video games the only thing you feel that way about?

Mmm, I think this conversation is over.

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Desum

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Desum

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: DesumYes, like those half dozen scholars interested in stories like Beowulf other ancient works.

Yes, exactly like. And I was serious when I said I think scholarship is important. I've taken Beowulf courses myself. But nonetheless, you were giving an overstated impression of your point.
(In fact, I probably like copyright less than you do; it's an antiquated system intended to preserve the profits and control of owners of early industrial revolution printing presses. To this day it remains mainly a tool for top-down class warfare, but now it's a tool poorly adapted to current technologies. There are other possible models for encouraging and supporting creative work. But IMO the biggest problems with the current copyright model aren't really about the deep future)

Copyright paired with a short duration is worth the trade for the works in the arts it generates. But that's another topic. If you are in favor of doing away with copyright in total, whatever issue is there you could have with piracy? Even I don't advocate making unauthorized copies of games less than twenty years old and passing them around. But without any copyright, that is exactly what one could do.

You're reading into my words. I never said a thing about piracy, pro or con. Something can be true and yet there can be false arguments for it; I can agree that something is true but still insist that some specific reason has nothing to do with why. So for instance, I believe the world is round, but if someone was trying to convince a flat earther by saying that obviously, people's heads are round and God made the world in our (heads') image, I'd be saying hang on a moment.
So no, I'm not arguing against piracy, I'm just saying a particular argument you made for it is overblown. In fact I'm not particularly bothered by piracy as a rule, although I don't think it's a cut and dried question. For instance, I become a lot more uneasy if it's piracy of small developers' stuff. And I do think there is some value in sticking to the law until it can be changed, even if it's not a good law . . . although there are limits. And I'm not in favour of replacing copyright with nothing, I'm in favour of replacing it with something else. I could discuss some suggestions for that something else, but it would get pretty wordy. But without any alternative in place or even very widespread perception that there could be alternatives, I will have to accept copyright limping along a while longer. On the other hand, piracy helps make the current copyright regime gradually less viable, which is fine by me . . . so yeah, my views on it are complicated.

Oh, preserving cultural artifacts is an overblown reason? M'kay. Are video games the only thing you feel that way about?

Mmm, I think this conversation is over.

Oh? Alright then~

Ha, that went there quick....

The funny thing about copyright / age. Sometimes it is about trends that can't be foreseen.
Let's take Nintendo for example, since this is the topic of this thrread. There is a site I use to update my MAME collection. MAME of course has a policy of not emulating anything newer than 15(?) years. But this same site for a long time would not allow posts of Nintendo or Sony torrents. Because they are the companies that actively go after sites. But companies like Sega, Atari, Commodore (well of course some are extinct) don't go sue happy. But for a short time there, they announced that they could finally host up to the SNES and PS1. But later recanted that.
My theory was that Nintendo saw and Sony saw that there is not only a market for 'retro' gaming, but that it is a HUGE market. So again curbed the distribution of old games.

Now, the funny thing here is Sega. All of their systems images are easily found. Yet they very successfully sell the Genesis collection, and even sell select remastered Sega Master System games on the Nintendo Switch.
It is the whole argument of 'would people buy these games if they were made commercially available again for new systems?' Yes. 'Would people just download them and play them in emulators?' Also yes. Now while they don't make money from the latter choice, not everyone wants to muck around with RetroArch, or other emulators, where a lot of times they are not 100%
The really fun things are the 'hardware' emulators, like the N64 one where it has as good as compatibility as Mupen64, which isn't the best around.
Even Sony realized they could make a little cash based on PS1-3 games on PSN. I don't think piracy really cuts into their profits as much as most people think they do.
Actually I wonder if a study has ever been done on if DRM is more expensive to publishers than loss from piracy.... because like any other middleware, I am sure various copy protection methods cost money.

In defense of Yuzu having paid betas, my two cents are
It's clearly a proven business model. Many people who use emulators often do not know or care what goes on in their development. Of course there's the blatant and mostly harmless problem of people nagging devs on twitter for why their emulator doesn't support their favorite game. But there's also the more insidious problem-- Many people are more than willing to pay money for an emulator that sorta works but that is completely closed source and this I believe will ultimately lead to the platform having much worse emulation for many decades to come. (See the N64 for example).
So because of this, Yuzu having a patreon AND github allows them to profit off these people while still doing a good service for the emulation scene.

Quoting: Purple Library GuyMmm, I think this conversation is over.

Quoting: DesumOh? Alright then~

I don't mean to intrude on your conversation which is over, but if either of you have some links to some videos or articles or podcast episodes or something which to some high degree overlap with your complicated but interesting-sounding views on the copyright system, then I might appreciate links (private or public). Not insisting though. Also don't easily forget to value your time and give it away to internet strangers who might not even watch your link. :)

Quoting: chr

Quoting: Purple Library GuyMmm, I think this conversation is over.

Quoting: DesumOh? Alright then~

I don't mean to intrude on your conversation which is over, but if either of you have some links to some videos or articles or podcast episodes or something which to some high degree overlap with your complicated but interesting-sounding views on the copyright system, then I might appreciate links (private or public). Not insisting though. Also don't easily forget to value your time and give it away to internet strangers who might not even watch your link. :)

I have no such. My concrete ideas don't really mesh that closely with any I've seen suggested or discussed. Here's a quick precis of a notion I've been mulling for copyright:

Spoiler, click me

You do a sort of giant, government-funded Patreon. The government assesses about how much gets spent on the media overall in a year and sets aside about that much in taxes. Then, they set up a giant Patreon/crowdfunding style website, ideally using open source technologies. Every would-be creator can make pages for their projects. Every citizen gets an equal share of the tax dough which they can allocate to any creators they want. The cut of everyone who doesn't bother tops everyone up proportionally. There might be ceilings, soft or hard, or at least notifications along the lines of "This project is considered fully funded" to soft-encourage people to diversify their contributions.

Then creators go do their thing and create stuff, having been paid to do it, and it's all released creative-commons-ish; everyone gets access to everything. No piracy, no DRM, no DMCA; it's your privilege as a citizen to access all the creative stuff done in the country. No superprofits for shareholders and layers of executives; the money goes to the creators. At the same time, the government isn't running the industry--the people get to decide what they want to fund.

In the case of online games, the business of running servers would be basically decoupled from the business of creating games in the first place.

Full disclosure: I am a radical leftist with a preference for relatively bottom-up, participatory stuff over centralized statist forms of leftiness. If I got to wave a wand and re-write society the setup I describe would be run in a less centralized way that was related to how the whole shebang was operated, but the popular participation and the access to everything would still be there.