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Quoting: SolitaryThe whole Covid situation in Europe is often misconstructed as EU acting late or not doing anything. EU has its limited competency and countries healthcare systems are not part of it, critics often like to bash EU for not doing anything or the opposite accusing them of overstepping their competency. Solving the Covid situation is national problem, so EU really has no say in here. Problem of Italy is that they have oldest population in Europe and they have lower amount of ventilators per capita than other countries. Italy is not a victim that got left behind by bureaucrats in Brussels. Nobody knew what to expect and they were the first that got hit hard, but not the only one (Spain for example).

What EU did and did it well was rescuing citizen from abroad that got stuck thanks to travel bans. What EU can do is to prepare some more coordinated effort in the future, but till then it is up to the countries themselves and that is not EU fault. This whole situation is unprecedented and makes sense there was no master plan for it. No country in the world, democratic or not really knew what to expect and how to prepare themselves. If anybody claims they have the answer (if only they had the power) they are most likely lying, there is no simple solution here. Lot of countries in EU solved the Covid situation fine though.

If anything I would say the migration crisis in 2015 was more of an example where we saw problems of such nature, but even that is not that simple, because it was Germany that initiated that whole mess with invitation and then acted surprised when other countries refused to participate. That whole issue is more political than anything else, because the solutions are already on the table.

I'm aware this is not really an EU problem, I really should have said Europe instead of EU as I actually meant the geographic region rather than a political body. Anyhow, maybe I am biased but to me it was common sense that a virus outbreak was coming. Sure, there was no telling where it would spread next, in our day and age, everyone is traveling from everywhere to everywhere, but that doesn't mean we sit about doing nothing until it actually becomes a real big problem. That's where Italy (and Spain, as you said) came in. Only once the red numbers came from those did I noticed governments taking action. Until that, no one thought of stocking up on medical supplies for the coming crisis. In my country I would call it a debacle - first there were no supplies to speak of at all and then, with a hoorah, medical workers received equipment that a) came late, b) was not of sufficient quantity, and c) wasn't even of the right kind. To me, that's not a government answering a crisis, that's a government trying to placate its subjects with whatever they could scrounge up until they fix their hot mess.

But I digress, a dictatorship could've underestimated the situation just as badly as democracy did.

Quoting: LungDragoIn my country I would call it a debacle - first there were no supplies to speak of at all and then, with a hoorah, medical workers received equipment that a) came late, b) was not of sufficient quantity, and c) wasn't even of the right kind. To me, that's not a government answering a crisis, that's a government trying to placate its subjects with whatever they could scrounge up until they fix their hot mess.

I don't know precisely for other EU countries but here in France, it is a fucking mess...

Quoting: LungDrago

Quoting: SolitaryThe whole Covid situation in Europe is often misconstructed as EU acting late or not doing anything. EU has its limited competency and countries healthcare systems are not part of it, critics often like to bash EU for not doing anything or the opposite accusing them of overstepping their competency. Solving the Covid situation is national problem, so EU really has no say in here. Problem of Italy is that they have oldest population in Europe and they have lower amount of ventilators per capita than other countries. Italy is not a victim that got left behind by bureaucrats in Brussels. Nobody knew what to expect and they were the first that got hit hard, but not the only one (Spain for example).

What EU did and did it well was rescuing citizen from abroad that got stuck thanks to travel bans. What EU can do is to prepare some more coordinated effort in the future, but till then it is up to the countries themselves and that is not EU fault. This whole situation is unprecedented and makes sense there was no master plan for it. No country in the world, democratic or not really knew what to expect and how to prepare themselves. If anybody claims they have the answer (if only they had the power) they are most likely lying, there is no simple solution here. Lot of countries in EU solved the Covid situation fine though.

If anything I would say the migration crisis in 2015 was more of an example where we saw problems of such nature, but even that is not that simple, because it was Germany that initiated that whole mess with invitation and then acted surprised when other countries refused to participate. That whole issue is more political than anything else, because the solutions are already on the table.

I'm aware this is not really an EU problem, I really should have said Europe instead of EU as I actually meant the geographic region rather than a political body. Anyhow, maybe I am biased but to me it was common sense that a virus outbreak was coming. Sure, there was no telling where it would spread next, in our day and age, everyone is traveling from everywhere to everywhere, but that doesn't mean we sit about doing nothing until it actually becomes a real big problem. That's where Italy (and Spain, as you said) came in. Only once the red numbers came from those did I noticed governments taking action. Until that, no one thought of stocking up on medical supplies for the coming crisis. In my country I would call it a debacle - first there were no supplies to speak of at all and then, with a hoorah, medical workers received equipment that a) came late, b) was not of sufficient quantity, and c) wasn't even of the right kind. To me, that's not a government answering a crisis, that's a government trying to placate its subjects with whatever they could scrounge up until they fix their hot mess.

But I digress, a dictatorship could've underestimated the situation just as badly as democracy did.

Definitely many mistakes and neglect were made by many parties involved, starting on national levels, but that should be no surprise. On the other hand, it is not really a political or systemic issue. Hindsight 20/20, lot of "Should have beens". Also let's not forget China did not help the situation, but that is beside the point and hopefully will be a lesson learned.

Quoting: LungDrago

Quoting: SolitaryThe whole Covid situation in Europe is often misconstructed as EU acting late or not doing anything. EU has its limited competency and countries healthcare systems are not part of it, critics often like to bash EU for not doing anything or the opposite accusing them of overstepping their competency. Solving the Covid situation is national problem, so EU really has no say in here. Problem of Italy is that they have oldest population in Europe and they have lower amount of ventilators per capita than other countries. Italy is not a victim that got left behind by bureaucrats in Brussels. Nobody knew what to expect and they were the first that got hit hard, but not the only one (Spain for example).

What EU did and did it well was rescuing citizen from abroad that got stuck thanks to travel bans. What EU can do is to prepare some more coordinated effort in the future, but till then it is up to the countries themselves and that is not EU fault. This whole situation is unprecedented and makes sense there was no master plan for it. No country in the world, democratic or not really knew what to expect and how to prepare themselves. If anybody claims they have the answer (if only they had the power) they are most likely lying, there is no simple solution here. Lot of countries in EU solved the Covid situation fine though.

If anything I would say the migration crisis in 2015 was more of an example where we saw problems of such nature, but even that is not that simple, because it was Germany that initiated that whole mess with invitation and then acted surprised when other countries refused to participate. That whole issue is more political than anything else, because the solutions are already on the table.

I'm aware this is not really an EU problem, I really should have said Europe instead of EU as I actually meant the geographic region rather than a political body. Anyhow, maybe I am biased but to me it was common sense that a virus outbreak was coming. Sure, there was no telling where it would spread next, in our day and age, everyone is traveling from everywhere to everywhere, but that doesn't mean we sit about doing nothing until it actually becomes a real big problem. That's where Italy (and Spain, as you said) came in. Only once the red numbers came from those did I noticed governments taking action. Until that, no one thought of stocking up on medical supplies for the coming crisis. In my country I would call it a debacle - first there were no supplies to speak of at all and then, with a hoorah, medical workers received equipment that a) came late, b) was not of sufficient quantity, and c) wasn't even of the right kind. To me, that's not a government answering a crisis, that's a government trying to placate its subjects with whatever they could scrounge up until they fix their hot mess.

But I digress, a dictatorship could've underestimated the situation just as badly as democracy did.

Don't know if the same happened in your country but here in Sweden we got into the "no supplies" situation in January when China closed their borders since they manufactured the vast majority of all the medical stuff that we use. Then when we begun to source it from other vendors, countries like Germany confiscated the supplies (which they later released when they realised that you cannot do that and have an open European market).

Quoting: Solitary

Quoting: F.Ultra

Quoting: SolitaryIf anything I would say the migration crisis in 2015 was more of an example where we saw problems of such nature, but even that is not that simple, because it was Germany that initiated that whole mess with invitation and then acted surprised when other countries refused to participate. That whole issue is more political than anything else, because the solutions are already on the table.

Honestly the migrant crisis of 2015 was less Germany's fault and more that of the US and Russia playing cold-war in Syria.

Well, that did start it. But migration crisis wasn't just refugees pouring in (that's where the "Refugees welcome" slogan comes in), it transformed into basically anyone trying to enter EU (illegally). It sparked big movement of people from Africa and Asia, which definitely did not escape from warzones. It created discourse that certain people refused to admit that distinction (still labeling all as refugees) and in response to that certain countries flat out refused to accept a single refugee/migrant even if they were willing at first. The situation as a whole got mostly solved by the deal with Turkey and the fact that the bordering countries that were receiving the biggest hits just got fed up and had to solve it on their own (with maybe some financial help and resources, but nothing systematic), because there was no other solution presented. EU was capable, but not willing to solve it systematically.

But the "other countries not willing to help" is hardly Germany's fault, it's those other countries. Don't fall for the hype created by those non-willing countries, sorting out who came from a Warzone and who didn't isn't really a problem so "but but, large groups of immigrants from other parts of the world" is just an excuse.

Quoting: Cyril

Quoting: DesumAh, another wall of text. Why am I not surprised?

Yeah, apparently he has some knowledge about this subject and his pseudo contains "Library Guy", so not surprising at all. ^_^
But don't mind me, go on the discussion.

There is a difference between having knowledge and being overly verbose. Eben Moglen comes to mind. The man could get his message across much more effectively with half the breath.


Last edited by Desum on 12 May 2020 at 10:14 pm UTC

Quoting: Desum

Quoting: Cyril

Quoting: DesumAh, another wall of text. Why am I not surprised?

Yeah, apparently he has some knowledge about this subject and his pseudo contains "Library Guy", so not surprising at all. ^_^
But don't mind me, go on the discussion.

There is a difference between having knowledge and being overly verbose. Eben Moglen comes to mind. The man could get his message across much more effectively with half the breath.

Maybe you should try reading and assimilating the words.

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: NagezahnA system that's built upon eternal growth in an environment that only has limited resources doesn't sound very future proof to me.

The universe may have finite resources, but even if you give us a million years to strip it we won't even make it through 1% of it. What limited resources?

That's meaningless if the people who need those resources haven't got access to them.


Last edited by tuubi on 14 May 2020 at 10:01 am UTC

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Desum

Quoting: Cyril

Quoting: DesumAh, another wall of text. Why am I not surprised?

Yeah, apparently he has some knowledge about this subject and his pseudo contains "Library Guy", so not surprising at all. ^_^
But don't mind me, go on the discussion.

There is a difference between having knowledge and being overly verbose. Eben Moglen comes to mind. The man could get his message across much more effectively with half the breath.

Maybe you should try reading and assimilating the words.

You mean just listen and believe? Tio be okazos~

We'll see how European socialism fares when the United States goes into decline and ceases to be the friendly global hegemon. Y'know, when they'll have to pay for all of their own defense budget.

Quoting: DesumWe'll see how European socialism fares when the United States goes into decline and ceases to be the friendly global hegemon. Y'know, when they'll have to pay for all of their own defense budget.

United States, friendly? OK now I know I really can't take you seriously, whathever you say about countries being socialist or not, this is top notch.
But you're right on one thing for sure, the United States are in decline, and when this day comes up it won't be a bad thing. So many countries are so tied, economically and politically, to the USA that's pretty slavery.

I won't reply on this thread again, at least I shouldn't.