Supraland is leaving GOG after less than a year, dev says sales were low

@Eike, also, if you want a good exposition on why overreaching preemptive policing is bad, I recommend reading Watchbird.

You either addressed the wrong person or you made up a totally wrong image of my opinion (which often happens when people got a pure black and white thinking and guess from being opposed at an aspect of something that the other person got a totally different opinion on everything of the topic). If the latter is true, take two steps back and read again what I wrote about and especially what I didn't write about.

You complained that "DRM doesn't trust you and treats you as a potential criminal apriory." - and that's what you're doing with random foreign people as well, and for a reason. There's bad people out there.

So, you cannot demand trust from companies (or other foreign people

I don't know where you're from, but here in France if a shopkeeper starts being suspicious towards his clients, they just leave the shop and never come back.

So, shop detectives, electronic door devices to scan for stolen stuff labels (CDs, clothes, ...) or other theft prevention isn't a thing in our neighbor country? I find that hard to believe (and would search on my own of you insist that would be true).


Last edited by Eike on 11 June 2020 at 6:57 pm UTC

You either addressed the wrong person or you made up a totally wrong image of my opinion (which often happens when people got a pure black and white thinking and guess from being opposed at an aspect of something that the other person got a totally different opinion on everything of the topic). If the latter is true, take two steps back and read again what I wrote about and especially what I didn't write about.

I did, and it sounded like you were trying to justify the premise behind DRM. May be I misunderstood it, then I'm sorry for confusion. In my opinion DRM has no justification, it's simply unethical.


Last edited by Shmerl on 11 June 2020 at 7:06 pm UTC

The big thing I wonder about DRM is why they are doing it, if it supposedly doesn't work.
It might be a bit similar to overreactions to a pandemic - if the situation ends up under control, you can say "it worked! Everything is under control", but you could also say "See? Wasn't that bad, so all your measures wouldn't have been necessary".

There have definitely been cases where DRMs totally failed to do their job, cases where they succeeded very well and everything in-between I guess.

How much a game would've been pirated (or bought) without DRM is something only a time traveller could tell us.

In my opinion DRM has no justification, it's simply unethical.

That may be a reason to you not to use DRM in your hypothetical project, but ethics in the end matter only as long as nothing more important is at stake, e.g. money.

You're also throwing all kinds of DRM in the same pot.
If a game just requires you to run Steam in order to run in, what's the big deal? You open Steam, start your game, done. Big deal. I don't see the problem here.

Of course, those Windows "kernel driver" things are a whole different subject, but that also goes into anti-cheating, etc.

That may be a reason to you not to use DRM in your hypothetical project, but ethics in the end matter only as long as nothing more important is at stake, e.g. money.

There is no end to it then. Unethical money can mean anything, from protection racket to something even more sinister. We aren't even talking abut unethical "business practices". We are talking about what's presented as something that should be acceptable, while in reality it does fall in the above unethical category.

DRM proponents attempt to whitewash it, and feed the public with that trash as something normal. But it shouldn't be acceptable.

You're also throwing all kinds of DRM in the same pot.

The kind doesn't make a difference. Their unethical premise is the same for all of them.


Last edited by Shmerl on 11 June 2020 at 8:27 pm UTC

If a game just requires you to run Steam in order to run in, what's the big deal? You open Steam, start your game, done. Big deal. I don't see the problem here.

Well, you just probably haven't run into it, so you think it's not a problem. I was on a train fairly recently (before lockdown) and it was a five hour journey. I opened Steam, I had no internet, went into offline mode, and then discovered, infuriatingly, that several of the games I wanted to play wouldn't start, because it had been months since I'd played them on that device, and I didn't have any internet to "prove" I owned them.

It's by degrees, of course, but DRM pissed me off massively that day.

I won't go into the old "what if Steam goes under" argument, because I'm a realist and I don't think it's likely. Even if it happens, I have libraries on Humble, Itch and GOG, so it'll be a first-world problem no matter how much I lose.

Of course, those Windows "kernel driver" things are a whole different subject, but that also goes into anti-cheating, etc.

Denuvo is a kernel driver for DRM, as well as anti-cheat. It's where I draw the line for DRM. Despite Steam pissing me off a couple of times in the nearly 16 years I've been customer, I can tolerate its DRM. But rootkits, kernel drivers, always-online (Steam needs a check-in every two weeks) checks and other blatantly anti-consumer crap like that can just do one. No money from me.

Denuvo is a kernel driver for DRM, as well as anti-cheat.

Denuvo anti-cheat is, but Denuvo anti-tamper is just an obfuscator. It hurts performance on weak CPUs but doesn't mess with an OS afaik.
Steam DRM, on the other hand, prevent Linux gamers from playing a bunch of PS360 era games: https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/issues/753. Those games run fine with cracked exes though.

If a game just requires you to run Steam in order to run in, what's the big deal? You open Steam, start your game, done. Big deal. I don't see the problem here.

Well, you just probably haven't run into it, so you think it's not a problem. I was on a train fairly recently (before lockdown) and it was a five hour journey. I opened Steam, I had no internet, went into offline mode, and then discovered, infuriatingly, that several of the games I wanted to play wouldn't start, because it had been months since I'd played them on that device, and I didn't have any internet to "prove" I owned them.

Do you really have to play the actual game to prove you own it?
I thought it was like Spotify, Deezer, etc. in that you need to be online like once a month or so and that applies to your entire library.

But I also never keep games around I don't play, always installing/uninstalling them as I need them so I wouldn't run into that problem anyway.

I won't go into the old "what if Steam goes under" argument, because I'm a realist and I don't think it's likely. Even if it happens, I have libraries on Humble, Itch and GOG, so it'll be a first-world problem no matter how much I lose.

That's never been an argument to begin with.
So what if I lost my entire library over night with no possibility whatsoever to save it beforehand (not gonna happen like that in any case, but let's assume...)?
Here's what will happen: The (very, very, very few) games I have an interest in playing again, I'll just buy again - in case I have the time for it, which is unlikely given my perpetually increasing backlog. Games aren't expensive if you don't buy them in the dozens-per-month. Online libraries are not physical collections where you'd lose your nice display rack or anything like it.
Or I'll just sail the seven seas - given that I already gave a dev money for the game, I find that morally acceptable.

It would be an inconvenience of varying degrees, nothing that anyone should spend their time worrying about.


Last edited by TheSHEEEP on 12 June 2020 at 6:05 am UTC

I did, and it sounded like you were trying to justify the premise behind DRM. May be I misunderstood it, then I'm sorry for confusion. In my opinion DRM has no justification, it's simply unethical.

I find it reasonable for companies not to trust us. Nobody should trust random foreign people they've never met.
I don't want companies or countrys to spy on people.
I don't know what to make is this regarding DRM though, that's why tend to avoid that topic.

If it would be possible to make piracy impossible without breaking anything for legal customers and without spying, I guess I'd be ok with it. It seems real live DRM often did one of those or even both.

You're also throwing all kinds of DRM in the same pot.
If a game just requires you to run Steam in order to run in, what's the big deal? You open Steam, start your game, done. Big deal. I don't see the problem here.

Worth mention that this game (i.e. Supraland) doesn't require Steam client to run. You only need to download the game from Steam repositories and that's it (you can do that with Steam client or SteamCmd).

Regarding the problem with GOG and Supraland, today I received an e-mail that states this:

GOG

A lot of you already heard about it from all kinds of sources. Due to way too low sale numbers we stopped the GOG support and unlisted the game there. We cannot offer version parity and don't want GOG customers to have a lesser version. Getting the APIs between the game and the platform to communicate properly is no trivial task, but at this point it was financially not viable to do so.

If you are totally outraged about GOG support being dropped, you are completely right of course and I apologize. But what can you do?

- We can give you a Steam key if you email us your GOG receipt of the game.

- If this is unacceptable to you, you can email us your refund wish including your paypal address.

Email: [email protected]

Source

Does anyone know which are the APIs that are required by GOG?


Last edited by x_wing on 12 June 2020 at 3:32 pm UTC

Does anyone know which are the APIs that are required by GOG?

I'm assuming they are talking about APIs to interact with the platform features like achievements, game overlay, chat, etc.

I'd say multiplayer, matchmaking, etc. but I doubt that's the case for them.

You complained that "DRM doesn't trust you and treats you as a potential criminal apriory." - and that's what you're doing with random foreign people as well, and for a reason. There's bad people out there.

So, you cannot demand trust from companies (or other foreign people

I don't know where you're from, but here in France if a shopkeeper starts being suspicious towards his clients, they just leave the shop and never come back.

So, shop detectives, electronic door devices to scan for stolen stuff labels (CDs, clothes, ...) or other theft prevention isn't a thing in our neighbor country? I find that hard to believe (and would search on my own of you insist that would be true).

You are right to make that point, but the fact I didn't make a link between DRM and those devices is quite revealing. I think more of DRM like "let's go through our customer's stuff because something may be wrong" than a simple automatic check (stuff paid for/stuff not paid for). In that case, CD Key looks more like theft prevention than DRM. But that's just how I see it.

Does anyone know which are the APIs that are required by GOG?

I'm assuming they are talking about APIs to interact with the platform features like achievements, game overlay, chat, etc.

I'd say multiplayer, matchmaking, etc. but I doubt that's the case for them.

The latter is definitely not the issue as is single player game.

Regarding overlay and other stuff, is all that mandatory for a GOG release? I always though that GOG galaxy integration was optional, but maybe I'm wrong...

I'm surprised their issue was some API integration. I guess achievements and such? Not something I really care about. It's one thing to rely on those APIs for multiplayer game and having trouble supporting multiple backends. Making a big deal out of it for a single player one and then pulling out of the store because of it, that sounds very misguided.


Last edited by Shmerl on 12 June 2020 at 6:48 pm UTC

I'm surprised their issue was some API integration. I guess achievements and such? Not something I really care about. It's one thing to rely on those APIs for multiplayer game and having trouble supporting multiple backends. Making a big deal out of it for a single player one and then pulling out of the store because of it, that sounds very misguided.

Still, keeping your game up to date with different APIs is way more work that just creating an installer for one or another (the former require extra QA and keep an eye on APIs updates/bugs, while the latter is just about checking that the installer worked fined). Either way, my question for this is: is not an option to release the GOG game without any of those APIs? Does GOG mandates that new games must use their API?

is not an option to release the GOG game without any of those APIs? Does GOG mandates that new games must use their API?

It is an option. I suppose developers didn't want to do it.

It is an option. I suppose developers didn't want to do it.

Or this guy assumed that it's mandatory. If it's optional, GOG install would only require to take Linux/Windows binaries for Steam and create the installer for each platform...

Or this guy assumed that it's mandatory. If it's optional, GOG install would only require to take Linux/Windows binaries for Steam and create the installer for each platform...

Yes, you can even see some Steam releated .so in some of the GOG games due to that.

I'm surprised their issue was some API integration. I guess achievements and such? Not something I really care about. It's one thing to rely on those APIs for multiplayer game and having trouble supporting multiple backends. Making a big deal out of it for a single player one and then pulling out of the store because of it, that sounds very misguided.

I'm also not fully buying it.
How hard can it be to implement achievements if you have already done it for another game (and GOG & Steam as well).
It's not like these APIs change a lot.

Denuvo is a kernel driver for DRM, as well as anti-cheat.

Denuvo anti-cheat is, but Denuvo anti-tamper is just an obfuscator. It hurts performance on weak CPUs but doesn't mess with an OS afaik.
Steam DRM, on the other hand, prevent Linux gamers from playing a bunch of PS360 era games: https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/issues/753. Those games run fine with cracked exes though.

"Just" an obfuscator? Weirdly, that sounds like you're defending it. Maybe you are. I suppose some people might prefer Denuvo to CEG because at least some Denuvo games run in Proton, but given that those games run with higher CPU, and lower framerates, at that point, I don't really care if it's a rootkit or not, I want nothing to do with it.

Can you imagine if this was applied to cars, clothes, or hell, burgers?

Cars: worse performance, you can't lend to a (insured) friend. Maybe you can only fill it from certain stations, or drive it on certain roads. Probably costs more as a result.
Clothes: Harder to put on, doesn't last as long, can't dye it, can't hand-me-down to others. Probably costs more as a result.
Burger: tastes longer to cook, can't share it with your son/daughter. Probably costs more as a result.

It's just weird. My entire steam library is mine and mine alone. When I die, even if I give the steam login to my children, they can't transfer the games to their account, it's completely locked. They're scaine, or nothing.

Defending DRM is such a strange position. And I know I've done it in the past, but the more I think about it, the more annoying and invasive I realise it is. Maybe one day I'll give up on Steam, but that would require a linux-friendly competitor to offer DRM-free gaming on a platform with vaguely similar features... and I doubt that will happen in my lifetime.


Last edited by scaine on 12 June 2020 at 9:58 pm UTC