There's going to be an online Linux App Summit this November

The one thing I hope comes out of this summit is a better way forward for application development. Our diversity is one of our greatest strengths and weaknesses (due to fragmentation). I feel like we're often so worried about courting Windows and Mac users and making our software available to their platforms that we've neglected the deep fragmentation in our own.


Last edited by randyl on 11 August 2020 at 4:05 pm UTC

Quoting: randylThe one thing I hope comes out of this summit is a better way forward for application development. Our diversity is one of our greatest strengths and weaknesses (due to fragmentation). I feel like we're often so worried about courting Windows and Mac users and making our software available to their platforms that we've neglected the deep fragmentation in our own.

I don't really see that big of problem with fragmentation, outside of most commercial vendors seeing it. Like when you ask Adobe to support desktop Linux, they have to ask Qt, GTK, other? Then they have to ask Ubuntu, RH, Debian, Arch...

But the second part of that is pretty easy to answer these days (basically AppImage is the only one so far that doesn't have some people whining about it in the flatpak vs snap debate). 1st one should be chosen on technical / licensing reasons. But let's face it, it's things like the Adobe suite that makes or breaks 'year of the desktop linux', as it is on the list of requirements 'some' people have.

No, the "fragmentation" isn't a bad thing. Think of it in terms of innovations, if only one thing is allowed, will we ever actually get progress?

I mean look at multi-desktop as a good example.
That started as a friendly competition between window managers in the 90's. And then two decades later the first commercial (and inferior ito usability) clone of it appears.

I can't imagine being productive without that feature, for example.

So, keep the fragmentation, keep the ability to choose, because without choice life will be oh so dreary.

As to fragmentation . . . I've never really had a problem installing and running KDE apps in Mate (which is I believe GTK-based). Sure, the initial download of the first one is a bit slow because it brings in a bunch of KDE stuff, but whatever. Maybe people finickier than me would says "But it doesn't look exactly like the Gnome apps!" . . . inquire whether I am concerned.

Recognizing fragmentation issues and solutions doesn't imply all paths lead to homogenization. When we ask a game studio to support "Linux" and provide us a native "port", what exactly are we asking? What are they supposed to target and support? Do we expect them to support all our various packaging systems?

This doesn't even touch on all the Linux ports that only work with specific package systems, distro, or library versions. Most of the titles in consumer gaming fit into the category of closed proprietary binaries that are specifically subject to fragmentation.

Quoting: grigiNo, the "fragmentation" isn't a bad thing. Think of it in terms of innovations, if only one thing is allowed, will we ever actually get progress?

I mean look at multi-desktop as a good example.
That started as a friendly competition between window managers in the 90's. And then two decades later the first commercial (and inferior ito usability) clone of it appears.

I can't imagine being productive without that feature, for example.

So, keep the fragmentation, keep the ability to choose, because without choice life will be oh so dreary.

Yeah, can't tell if Windiws copied Linux fir virtual desktops, or because macOS had them. Also not sure if NeXTSTEP is where those came from or just most other Unix DEs. Either way, from my understanding the Amiga had them first, and independent resolutions to boot!

Quoting: randylRecognizing fragmentation issues and solutions doesn't imply all paths lead to homogenization. When we ask a game studio to support "Linux" and provide us a native "port", what exactly are we asking? What are they supposed to target and support? Do we expect them to support all our various packaging systems?

This doesn't even touch on all the Linux ports that only work with specific package systems, distro, or library versions. Most of the titles in consumer gaming fit into the category of closed proprietary binaries that are specifically subject to fragmentation.

In my mind we should be asking 'please support this game on Linux via Steam or GOG or itch.io.' not "please make debian packages."

Quoting: grigiNo, the "fragmentation" isn't a bad thing. Think of it in terms of innovations, if only one thing is allowed, will we ever actually get progress?

In terms of innovation, yes, but no so much in terms of development (I quote below a good illustration):

Quoting: randylWhen we ask a game studio to support "Linux" and provide us a native "port", what exactly are we asking? What are they supposed to target and support? Do we expect them to support all our various packaging systems?

--8<--------------

Quoting: slaapliedjeIn my mind we should be asking 'please support this game on Linux via Steam or GOG or itch.io.' not "please make debian packages."

But wouldn't targeting a "store" end up for example like what we see with Epic Game Store getting exclusives ?

Quoting: randylThe one thing I hope comes out of this summit is a better way forward for application development. Our diversity is one of our greatest strengths and weaknesses (due to fragmentation). I feel like we're often so worried about courting Windows and Mac users and making our software available to their platforms that we've neglected the deep fragmentation in our own.

There is no fragmentation. On Windows every program every secon pwrusr g4m3r uses is a third party program that offers next to no integration to the supposedly "non-fragmented" desktop/toolchain.

As for support, all is really needed is that they figure out a base set of (external) libraries they want/need to support. And steam/gog provides them that already, so even them targeting ancient library versions are not a problem anymore.

To my mind every single dev/publisher that figured out that steam can ship their version of libraries and that it is enough to support one distribution to satisfy 99% of linux gamers has done a good enough job. This has nothing to do with how many desktop environments and how many "linux" distro flavours are out there.

Quoting: dvd

Quoting: randylThe one thing I hope comes out of this summit is a better way forward for application development. Our diversity is one of our greatest strengths and weaknesses (due to fragmentation). I feel like we're often so worried about courting Windows and Mac users and making our software available to their platforms that we've neglected the deep fragmentation in our own.

There is no fragmentation. On Windows every program every secon pwrusr g4m3r uses is a third party program that offers next to no integration to the supposedly "non-fragmented" desktop/toolchain.

Could you give an example of such third-party program ?

Quoting: dvdAs for support, all is really needed is that they figure out a base set of (external) libraries they want/need to support. And steam/gog provides them that already, so even them targeting ancient library versions are not a problem anymore.

To my mind every single dev/publisher that figured out that steam can ship their version of libraries and that it is enough to support one distribution to satisfy 99% of linux gamers has done a good enough job. This has nothing to do with how many desktop environments and how many "linux" distro flavours are out there.

99% seems a bit optimistic, if we look at the GOL statistics (assuming of course that those statistics are representative)