Borderlands 2 will see no further updates for Linux / macOS from Aspyr Media

Without Linux gamers there are no Linux native games. But without Linux games there are no new Linux gamers. The old eternal cycle.

Yes Proton killed the porting of titles. But on the other hand it's few steps away from providing windows parity to virtually all titles (with the notable anti-cheat issue that remains mostly outside Valve influence reach).

Say what you want about proton. Things will never change if only a 5% of games is playable on Linux. With proton, in as little as 2 years, there will be substantial parity between windows and Linux.

Then maybe nothing will happen and there will be no conversion trend. But maybe people will start to convert. It's a bet Valve is right to take. The cycle has to be broken somehow. And I don't see any morally acceptable way to take the other route and force people to to install Linux to create a demand for Linux native games.

Quoting: Kimyrielle

Quoting: slaapliedjeI was thinking about this the other day. While we have both Unity and Unreal engines with the potential of a 'click to export to Linux' have we really seen a large amount of Unreal based games coming natively to Linux?

The major standard engines support Linux, but, yes, a lot of the middleware components devs plug into their games to save time, do not. Since studios tend to develop the entire game on Windows until it's done, even when they promised a Linux version, they often don't even find out until it's too late.

Yeah, but I think slaapliedje was actually proposing a distinction between relatively real Linux support in Unity leading to quite a few Unity-based native Linux games, and relatively unreal Linux support in Unreal not leading to many native Linux games.

QuoteIn short, yes, it seems porting is largely dead. Thankfully, thanks to Proton, Linux gaming is not. Ironically we can play more games on Linux now than ever.

Porting, in the sense of games being made by Studio A for Windows only and then ported by Studio B to Linux, is largely dead . . . or if not dead (thanks Ethan Lee!), at any rate pretty dashed sick. But except in the AAA segment I'm not convinced that's had a big impact on the number of native Linux games coming out. Porting was always pretty minor compared to publishers making cross-platform games in the first place, and as both game engines and other cross-platform tools have matured that's only gotten truer. Anyone who, when they start making a game, thinks "I want this game to be cross-platform" can now pretty easily do that.

Proton has certainly allowed Linux gaming to include a lot of non-native games though, and that's been particularly helpful in the AAA space where the factors you mentioned, like the failure of the Steam Machine, had an even stronger impact.

I also think that Linux has and will retain a mindshare among developers that, while fringe, is significantly larger than the 1%-ish market share really warrants. That's for two reasons: The strength, even dominance, of Linux in so many other areas of computing, and I think also the continuing ideological cachet of open source. More than 1% of developers want to release for Linux even if it's barely a break-even proposition.

That said, a bigger desktop market share is still the main thing we need.

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Kimyrielle

Quoting: slaapliedjeI was thinking about this the other day. While we have both Unity and Unreal engines with the potential of a 'click to export to Linux' have we really seen a large amount of Unreal based games coming natively to Linux?

The major standard engines support Linux, but, yes, a lot of the middleware components devs plug into their games to save time, do not. Since studios tend to develop the entire game on Windows until it's done, even when they promised a Linux version, they often don't even find out until it's too late.

Yeah, but I think slaapliedje was actually proposing a distinction between relatively real Linux support in Unity leading to quite a few Unity-based native Linux games, and relatively unreal Linux support in Unreal not leading to many native Linux games.

QuoteIn short, yes, it seems porting is largely dead. Thankfully, thanks to Proton, Linux gaming is not. Ironically we can play more games on Linux now than ever.

Porting, in the sense of games being made by Studio A for Windows only and then ported by Studio B to Linux, is largely dead . . . or if not dead (thanks Ethan Lee!), at any rate pretty dashed sick. But except in the AAA segment I'm not convinced that's had a big impact on the number of native Linux games coming out. Porting was always pretty minor compared to publishers making cross-platform games in the first place, and as both game engines and other cross-platform tools have matured that's only gotten truer. Anyone who, when they start making a game, thinks "I want this game to be cross-platform" can now pretty easily do that.

Proton has certainly allowed Linux gaming to include a lot of non-native games though, and that's been particularly helpful in the AAA space where the factors you mentioned, like the failure of the Steam Machine, had an even stronger impact.

I also think that Linux has and will retain a mindshare among developers that, while fringe, is significantly larger than the 1%-ish market share really warrants. That's for two reasons: The strength, even dominance, of Linux in so many other areas of computing, and I think also the continuing ideological cachet of open source. More than 1% of developers want to release for Linux even if it's barely a break-even proposition.

That said, a bigger desktop market share is still the main thing we need.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. I mean when was the last game using the Unreal engine released natively? I know there have been a few lesser known titles that don't really broadcast that they used UE, but tons of them you can tell use Unity. Actually I think Supraland maybe one of them that used Unreal, and guess what? They are dropping their Linux native version!

You've got some merit there about developers WANTING to use it and release for it. Pretty sure there is just this weird angst against Linux releases by publishers. And I think most of it is because they still think we're all just a bunch of bums that want software for free, and we'll just pirate it, not realizing that a good share of us use Linux professionally, and generally speaking get paid more than our Windows administrating colleagues.

Unfortunately until we can convince them otherwise, they'll still target Windows. I mean considering that there are/were native builds for Doom 2016 (at least, not sure about Eternal) for Linux that weren't released because Bethesda didn't think they'd make enough money to support it, is kind of telling... and that Epic used to actually say 'why not' and have native games, they don't even care enough about making another Unreal Tournament game to do so...

They should release the code so that others who are willing and able to do the maintenance can do so. lol

Proton/Wine/Eon == Gaming on Windows on Linux

Quoting: Comandante ÑoñardoAs I said a lot of times:
If Valve gives a good incentive to the big publishers, they will port all the AAA games to Linux.

"If your game has fully functional SteamOS/Linux version, instead of charge you the 30% of the game price, I'm gonna charge you only the 5% of the game price"

But nooo! For some mysterious reason GabeN refuse to do this....

That might work too well . . . well enough for Valve to start losing scads of money. I can see 25% or something.

Quoting: Comandante Ñoñardo"If your game has fully functional SteamOS/Linux version, instead of charge you the 30% of the game price, I'm gonna charge you only the 5% of the game price"

But nooo! For some mysterious reason GabeN refuse to do this....

Dropping 25% of your income to support a 1% platform. Yeah that reason is real mysterious. They must be idiots. Or paid by Microsoft. Or something...

Quoting: CatKiller

Quoting: MohandevirIt's just that it highlights the fact that no solutions are 100% thrustworthy. That's the saddest part, imo.

AFAIK, all the Feral ports still work and are still supported, but yeah: native versions have been pulled, ports by these other porting houses have stopped working, and Windows-only games can get changes that stop them working in Wine. And I get the impression that Linux ports for Feral aren't as profitable as the other things they could be doing with their time, assuming they can find a developer-partner that will let them do it in the first place.

They seem to be doing just that. Mobile and Switch ports: https://www.feralinteractive.com/en/news/?platform=all

Mac is also another refuge as AFAIK Proton is unavailable there.

Unfortunately I called it some time ago, I knew this was going to be the the case.

It's with a sad heart that the way It's going in general with Linux gaming and the humongous £££ increase in graphics cards I am seriously thinking PS5. I'll keep my Linux PC purely for work related tasks .

Very sad, but at the same time not really surprising. This is probably the downside of Proton at display right there.

Still - if I had to choose: Proton any day of the week. But I do feel sorry for Feral.

Quoting: ElectricPrismIt's pretty similar to how you buy a ROM aka Ocarina of Time for say Nintendo Wii from their and it stops getting updates someday.

Yeah, I see your point. Still, I can play a fully featured version of Ocarina of Time on my Wii, if I have the determination.

In the case of BL2, it's not a hardware issue, it's the game that changed. You can still play BL2 fully on Windows, on the same hardware... It's just that dropping support for a platform, in the middle of a product cycle... I understand that it's a business decision, but... Totally open question that might even prove me wrong, have you ever seen that happen on another gaming platform? I don't have the answer to that question, I'm really curious to know...

Quoting: ElectricPrismI disagree, Proton is about creating "Containers" around games to preserve them. As long as they're not targeting a "Moving Target" and the game is in a static-state they seem to consistently knock down barriers and enable Games on a Steam Linux OS Platform.

I might not have been clear enough on this, you are right, and it's doing an awesome job. I was referring to new game releases... Aka Marvel's Avengers that is not working on day one and might never work on Proton. Wee need these AAA titles to break that 1% barrier and Linux needs to be at the lead for new features, not waiting on Proton to catch up on Windows features.

Quoting: ElectricPrismHonestly, I think it just underlines the hardships businesses are having this year from Corona-virus lockdowns. Adapting is hard.

They really should have never broken cross-platform compatibility.

As long as the core games still works I'm not a fan of bitching too hard. For me that's what I bought it for.

I assume you can play it via Proton if you want without too much hassle.

Totally true... That's why I used the term "sad". I'm not putting the blame on Aspyr. It's a business decision.

Still where Linux shines it's in dedicated appliances. As long as there won't be an hardware platform dedicated to a Linux gaming platform that represents the core business model, Linux gaming will always be an afterthought, imo. Microsoft's grip on the dekstop is way too strong. I don't think we'll ever see that 1% barrier being broken anytime soon, in the actual context.

If we make abstraction of who is behind the deal, if Google decided to offer a Stadia hardware console to compete with Xbox Series X and PS5, beside the streaming service (choose your solution), it might become a winning concept (because Stadia is a console in the cloud). I know, it would probably mean creating competition between 2 internal services, at Google... Quite weird, I admit... But I'm not sure it would mean targeting exactly the same "audience" either.

Oh well... Gamescope is still being actively developed, at Valve and SteamOS is regularly mentioned as the OS being used to develop it, so... Who knows?


Last edited by Mohandevir on 13 September 2020 at 2:06 am UTC