NVIDIA getting geared up to support hardware accelerated XWayland

Quoting: 3zekielIndeed, but I was referring the original question "Is it impossible for my graphics card vendor to do full Wayland support while keeping its driver closed?"

I think the overall answer is it's impossible, because kernel developers have strict rules now against "symbol poisoning". Nvidia for years tried to dance around it, and with various tricks they managed to skirt the issue for some things, but they can't avoid it completely from what I understand.

I also find it despicable for a huge company like Nvidia to play these games instead of working with kernel developers properly like AMD and Intel do.


Last edited by Shmerl on 7 January 2021 at 6:40 pm UTC

Quoting: ShmerlI also find it despicable for a huge company like Nvidia to play these games instead of working with kernel developers properly like AMD and Intel do.

Sadly, they are not the only one, a fair bit of the Android chip makers also act like that.
Honestly, I don't get why they do so. All the really important stuff is likely hidden in the firmware anyway. That they close higher level stuff like Cuda / DLSS, I can understand because there is value there. But I don't really see the value there is in a kernel level driver for a graphics card... Power sequences can be hidden in firmware, perf monitors can also be hidden, all the stuff that allows to make high value tools (advances profiling/debugging etc) can be hidden.

So only thing I see is they use code with other companies licences, or they just have some old guys in business who think that closed source driver is super duper important cuz you know "trade secrets". Of course, none of them understand that the guys which might have an interest in those "trade secrects" are more than able to analyze a binary (I mean, try ghydra to see how easy it is nowadays...).
I think the first one is likely, namely because of stuff like that: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=HDMI-Closed-Spec-Hurts-Open ...


Last edited by 3zekiel on 7 January 2021 at 7:31 pm UTC

Quoting: 3zekielI don't get why they do so. All the really important stuff is likely hidden in the firmware anyway. That they close higher level stuff like Cuda / DLSS, I can understand because there is value there. But I don't really see the value there is in a kernel level driver for a graphics card.

Market manipulation shenanigans most likely. If Nvidia can control what features are exposed in the kernel driver, they can charge higher prices for industrial users for using their cards and not expose those features in their drivers for everyone else.

If the driver is open, everyone can use their hardware however they want. This is also the possible reason why they hinder Nouveau from working properly. If Nouveau will work, the open stack will unlock their hardware for anything and they'll lose ability to charge more.

The only way to beat that kind of attitude is for competition to start pushing them stronger.


Last edited by Shmerl on 7 January 2021 at 7:46 pm UTC

Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: 3zekielI don't get why they do so. All the really important stuff is likely hidden in the firmware anyway. That they close higher level stuff like Cuda / DLSS, I can understand because there is value there. But I don't really see the value there is in a kernel level driver for a graphics card.

Market manipulation shenanigans most likely. If Nvidia can control what features are exposed in the kernel driver, they can charge higher prices for industrial users for using their cards and not expose those features in their drivers for everyone else.

If the driver is open, everyone can use their hardware however they want. This is also the possible reason why they hinder Nouveau from working properly. If Nouveau will work, the open stack will unlock their hardware for anything and they'll lose ability to charge more.

Hmmm in theory yes, but even that, you can lock pretty much anything you want at firmware level, which is signed/encrypted so much safer to lock whatever you want. And whatever the driver is, can't do much in front of firmware. Throw in some fuses/antifuses to choose what to enable/disable at foundry and you are good to go.
I mean it is possible they actually do it because of that, but technically does not make that much sense.
As for gimping Nouveau driver, what is fun is they actually contribute to it for Tegra.

I mean, the drivers with special sauce for Titan and co, I expect they remain proprietary of course - same as AMD workstation drivers. But features like virtual gpu are easy to simply kill at firmware level, so whatever the licence of the driver, customers still can't do anything. So yeah, it might be that someone in the company thinks it's important to lock driver if you want to lock features ... But then someone need to tell them this is really not the best way to do it.


Last edited by 3zekiel on 7 January 2021 at 8:27 pm UTC

I agree, they could make it work better for open drivers, no matter what their market games are. But they didn't care I suppose and as it stands, they don't want Nouveau to work properly.

Quoting: BielFPs…there's a lot of fanboys using Linux who are defending Nvidia…

Personal insults already?
Why there are a lot of ATi users in the nVidia thread? Don't you have anything better to do than spew your hatred towards nVidia?

Quoting: ShmerlThat's usually the perception of those who come from Windows and there indeed Nvidia is very dominating and people really don't care about whether something is open source or not. So when such gamers are switching to Linux they can also bring that kind of attitude with them, but even they often get what the point is eventually.

The way I see it, the actual trend among Linux gamers is growth for AMD and decline for Nvidia. But influx of former Windows gamers might continue to offset that.

I think with AMD investing more in gaming cards in general, situation on Windows will balance out too, so that influx will have less of an impact on Linux in the future.

Yeah, those "nVidia fanboys" definitely should have come from God-forsaken Windows! And they continue to poison True Linux Users' minds with their heretical choice of accursed nVidia products! True pure-breed Linux users have always used ATi, even back when those cards outright refused to work on Linux (say "Hello!" to fglrx). How dare they use cards that just work while true follower of the Linux Way must manually compile the latest Mesa drivers from Git applying patches and using new "sometimes working sometimes crashing on start" ACO shader compiler!

So, yeah, let's bash those silly ex-Windows users for their wrong choice.

P.S. Not to mention, AMD "definitely not fanboys" talking about "open source" and Linux Way while playing proprietary Windows games via WINE using closed source AMD firmware in the drivers look comical.


Last edited by Alm888 on 8 January 2021 at 8:24 am UTC

Quoting: Alm888Yeah, those "nVidia fanboys"

Without all that pointless language, Windows users who already have Nvidia will likely have it when switching to Linux, that was the point. And some of them won't understand why blob is a problem, it's pretty pointless to deny this. Simply because on Windows they never even think about this point.

But as above, this only offsets the trend, it doesn't really reverse it, so in the big picture it's not a problem, even if it just delays the decline of the blob.


Last edited by Shmerl on 8 January 2021 at 8:42 am UTC

Quoting: HoriI'm not an AMD user, but... why would <you stop> playing proprietary games just because you support open drivers?
…
Sure I'll always be happy when I see open source games, that is great, but IMO it is not a requirement!

Maybe it is because you are not an AMD user?
Those using nVidia… are just playing games.
Those using AMD feel the need to preach everyone on how closed source is bad and not the Linux Way, so using closed source proprietary "blobs" is a big NO-NO! Oh, and "NVIDIA, F*CK YOU!" Because in their eyes nVidia is EVIL and is actively undermining the Linux ecosystem by… doing what it is supposed to do: providing software support for their products.

Because, remember, closed-source proprietary drivers are EVIL!

I am personally all for open platform ideology. An ecosystem providing possibilities for everyone. If a company decides to sell their proprietary software on Linux -- fine by me! I will not pull everyone's nails with a pliers demanding access to source code.

But some AMD "non-fanboys" will not rest in piece until nVidia opens its drivers (and, preferably, abandons all of its technology, such as CUDA, NVAPI, GSync etc.) because it is not the Linux Way. Also, said "non-fanboys" are quite happy using their AMD GPUs with closed-source firmware in their open drivers. Ask them, they will tell you "that's different" (talk about "GPL Condoms").

And they will find a way to derail every positive nVidia news thread into a hatred-avalanche by posting how they have stopped using nVidia products on principle because "NVIDIA, F*CK YOU!".

Quoting: HoriFor me too but honestly it's not there yet IMO... AMD's still at 1st gen RT and we know how useless Nvidia's 1st gen RT was. Same goes to whatever AMD calls their DLSS equivalent - which IMO is the biggest advantage Nvidia has.

My NVIDIA GPU is from like 2014.
This in itself should tell you if I care about RT and 5% fps difference between NVIDIA and equivalent AMD card in general :D


Last edited by bolokanar on 8 January 2021 at 1:19 pm UTC

Quoting: Alm888Personal insults already?

Not an insult, I was talking about those users defending Nvidia even when it's the company the cause of those said problems.

But every time I see an argument about "Wayland sucks because they didn't choose the "superior Nvidia EGLStreams"" I get the same energy as "Linux sucks because it won't run my [Windows only trending game]" which the point is, they're blaming the wrong subject for the problem in this case

Wayland (compositors) are far from perfect and it have it's whole share of problems, but Nvidia non standard proprietary drivers is not one of them.

Quoting: Alm888Why there are a lot of ATi users in the nVidia thread? Don't you have anything better to do than spew your hatred towards nVidia?

Personally, I'm only comment because of the Wayland subject, which I'm really happy to see "some progress" from nvidia (even if I don't use it anymore) because it has a positive impact in the wayland adoption as default

You won't see me comment any of those news here about "Nvidia new driver releases" for example.

Quoting: Alm888must manually compile the latest Mesa drivers from Git applying patches and using new "sometimes working sometimes crashing on start" ACO shader compiler!

Fortunately I'm yet to experience a problem with Mesa + ACO in my setup, I always only needed Pacman -Syu (and ppa before that) and never had to compile a single driver in my life (I think I don't even know how to do it )

In fact, most of the people I see talking about problems with linux gaming are always using "Nvidia + KDE" combo

Quoting: Alm888How dare they use cards that just work

If you're using Nvidia drivers + wayland without any problems, then those drivers are in a better state than I thought

Quoting: Alm888even back when those cards outright refused to work on Linux (say "Hello!" to fglrx).

Agreed. AMD before Lisa Su was in a sorrow state, and look how things improved with Linux after they release the open source drivers


Last edited by BielFPs on 8 January 2021 at 4:13 pm UTC