Steamworks gets Denuvo Anti-Cheat, here's what Irdeto say about Linux support

i think we should let the fight against drm with the windows users, while we fight for linux marketshare, we can join they in their fight later on, but we dont have enough people/resources to fight in both fronts at the same time run today, live to fight tomorrow.

The thing is, if I was of the mindset that was okay with DRM solutions, I would not be using Linux in the first place. Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

drm can be broken later on, windows users dont have an issue with that, because there are enough hackers on the windows comunity to break any drm they might have.
meanwhile we dont have neither all the games nor the cracked games.
we would have both if we had an better marketshare.

drm can be broken later on, windows users dont have an issue with that, because there are enough hackers on the windows comunity to break any drm they might have.
meanwhile we dont have neither all the games nor the cracked games.
we would have both if we had an better marketshare.

Let's be honest, if running a game with a crack to get around DRM is considered an acceptable user experience, so is running a Windows game through WINE with no support. We can do better on both platforms.

drm can be broken later on, windows users dont have an issue with that, because there are enough hackers on the windows comunity to break any drm they might have.
meanwhile we dont have neither all the games nor the cracked games.
we would have both if we had an better marketshare.

Let's be honest, if running a game with a crack to get around DRM is considered an acceptable user experience, so is running a Windows game through WINE with no support. We can do better on both platforms.

that is, if the game RUNS.
a lot of games dont, or run without a lot of features.

like sound effects (eg: track mania from steam)
full screen (eg: disgaea)
cutscene playback (eg: guilty gear, melty blood)

that is, if the game RUNS. a lot of games dont, or run without a lot of features.

Which is exactly my point. How is that any different than running a cracked version of a game with broken multiplayer or other quirks related to breaking the DRM system without developer support?

Actually, to answer my own question, there is a difference: running a game through WINE is still legal. In Canada at least ANY attempt to break a digital lock is explicitly forbidden by law due to the Copyright Modernization Act, even for software you paid for and otherwise have a licence to use.

I knew someone who after thirteen long years wanted to finally play Duke Nukem Forever but was old school enough to not want a Steam account. So he played a cracked version of the game which, by deactivating Steamworks, also meant that the Ego system in the game was broken. He completed the entire game with the lowest amount of health possible, not even getting the first boost you get right at the beginning of the game from using the urinal.

My playing the copy of Shadow Warrior 2 I was gifted by GOG.com through WINE and DXVK and having a few issues with video playback is a small point in comparison.

that is, if the game RUNS. a lot of games dont, or run without a lot of features.

Which is exactly my point. How is that any different than running a cracked version of a game with broken multiplayer or other quirks related to breaking the DRM system without developer support?

1)i dont remember the last time i pirated something, but last time i checked i didnt missed any feature, it was an offline game anyway.
2)with the current marketshare we dont have both, drm-free games or games with drm, currently we dont refuse to play games with drm because we want to boycot drm, but because we CANT play then.
you would still have the option to only play drm free games, the difference is that you will be able to play everything else.
3)its not just about us paranoid with privacy , security and freedom, but about everyone else too.
4)drm seems to be an thin layer compared to an operating system, there is a reason why it take so little time to break the drm of most games, but its taking years to make some games work on linux.


Last edited by elmapul on 22 January 2021 at 4:25 am UTC

1)i dont remember the last time i pirated something, but last time i checked i didnt missed any feature, it was an offline game anyway.

I already gave an example with Duke Nukem Forever earlier in the thread. Sure, you can come up with a list of games that do work flawlessly once cracked, but I can do the same for Windows games running in WINE. It is not that they can not be made to work, it is the uncertainty and volatility that is the problem. In both cases you are left on your own without support.

2)with the current marketshare we dont have both, drm-free games or games with drm, currently we dont refuse to play games with drm because we want to boycot drm, but because we CANT play then.

I mean, that is exactly what I have been doing. There are many Linux native games I refuse to purchase and play because they come with DRM solutions, most prominently Steamworks. And I am happy to say I still have a large backlog of Linux native DRM free games to get through.

you would still have the option to only play drm free games, the difference is that you will be able to play everything else. its not just about us paranoid with privacy , security and freedom, but about everyone else too

Sure, as things stand it is a personal consumer choice. But the way you presented it makes it a false dichotomy. You can have both, or neither, and one compromise is not greater than the other. Your preference is for more titles on Linux no matter what, my preference is for more DRM free titles. In the end we are both buying Linux games and supporting the industry. I am not hurting Linux marketshare by using Linux to only play DRM free titles.

What I will say is a DRM free Windows game that works well in WINE is in the end more accessible to me than a Linux native game that requires DRM in order to function. And while my objections to Windows native games are on a technical level, my objections to DRM systems are on an ethical one.

4)drm seems to be an thin layer compared to an operating system, there is a reason why it take so little time to break the drm of most games, but its taking years to make some games work on linux.

DRM is deliberately antagonistic by design, unlike the APIs that make games work on other platforms. You are both hugely underestimating the effort it takes to break DRM systems and underestimating the effectiveness of emulators like DOSBox or compatibility layers like WINE. But I am not going to deny that both take a great deal of talent and effort to pull off. And the difference still remains that one is legal and the other often is not.

i just hope the pricing is better than with EAC/BattlEye and the ease of integration also makes some devs to switch to DAC instead of EAC, so we have some chance to play some games.

Garry? Can you switch Rust to DAC instead of EAC! :D

We would have to accept a kernel module... I just hope they would only load it with the game then unload it. I don't want to be forced to block it myself then load it → play the game → unload it every time.

We would have to accept a kernel module... I just hope they would only load it with the game then unload it. I don't want to be forced to block it myself then load it → play the game → unload it every time.

But that would require privilege escalation to load the module.

Doing a full on container would be the only decent way. If we could get VirGL to fully pass through the GPU to a VM, it could work that way too.

It's sad how anti cheat solutions are more effective to block legit Linux players instead of actual cheaters. And for anti-piracy protection, I haven't see any successfully case with Denuvo since the Chinese had their first success of crack them.

This last year has me of the mind that Beijing Sandingmeng may have been supported by particular interests seeking to better understand systems of digital control.

and not all games can run server side only, what about those button mash mini games where the player who presses the button faster wins? its impossible to secure the input against hacking.

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Alright, my snarky replies aside, the differences in perspective here are just from assigning completely different value to certain things things.

nice image joke, but that is beyond the point.

the example that i gave was just the example that i could think of at the time, that dont means this is the only case where this might be an issue, different types of games present different challenges that we might not be aware of.

and second, as an game developer, i have to solve problems related to game making, not judge then.
i cant tell the player "this game that you are playing is not fun, its stupid to code, go play something else", what i have to do is solve the problems.
the question is: how?

It's funny looking back, back in the 90s "cheats" used to be a "feature" you literally paid extra money for a players guide or game shark or whatever to get special new capabilities.[/quote]
Yeah this times a thousand remember Total biscuit used to say i used to be able to put a cheat code in now i need to enter my credit card info

It's funny looking back, back in the 90s "cheats" used to be a "feature" you literally paid extra money for a players guide or game shark or whatever to get special new capabilities.

Yeah this times a thousand remember Total biscuit used to say i used to be able to put a cheat code in now i need to enter my credit card info[/quote]This is why it's almost a breath of fresh air for me to just play games on an Amiga or Atari ST. That and to be able to just double click on an icon or put in a (sometimes virtual) floppy disk and have it load up the game. No DLC, no pay to win, Just the game to play!

This is why it's almost a breath of fresh air for me to just play games on an Amiga or Atari ST. That and to be able to just double click on an icon or put in a (sometimes virtual) floppy disk and have it load up the game. No DLC, no pay to win, Just the game to play!

I'm now playing Blood Bowl 2 and it could be played without creating an online account, but the game is just missing some of the functionality. But I can't agree with the DLC part, we had them in the 90's there were just called datadiscs and added plenty of new functionalities. What is shame, that the DLC often lets you pay for only cosmetic things or something that should have been in the original game from beginning.

And the worst DLCs are those that are just dividing the online community, like DLC with multiplayer maps, which are not playable for others.

As you said the games should be just fun to play and not only for making money. I have some favorites developers in this case, which are creating games that are fun to play and you don't need to pay additional money to enjoy them. Some of them are even updating the games years after release. :-) You just don't see them creating any AAA titles.

This is why it's almost a breath of fresh air for me to just play games on an Amiga or Atari ST. That and to be able to just double click on an icon or put in a (sometimes virtual) floppy disk and have it load up the game. No DLC, no pay to win, Just the game to play!

I'm now playing Blood Bowl 2 and it could be played without creating an online account, but the game is just missing some of the functionality. But I can't agree with the DLC part, we had them in the 90's there were just called datadiscs and added plenty of new functionalities. What is shame, that the DLC often lets you pay for only cosmetic things or something that should have been in the original game from beginning.

And the worst DLCs are those that are just dividing the online community, like DLC with multiplayer maps, which are not playable for others.

As you said the games should be just fun to play and not only for making money. I have some favorites developers in this case, which are creating games that are fun to play and you don't need to pay additional money to enjoy them. Some of them are even updating the games years after release. :-) You just don't see them creating any AAA titles.

Yeah, I separate DLC with full blown expansions. Like Crusader Kings II is a good example, they had shit loads of DLC, with a few expansions. Sure they are called DLC, but they really are expansion packs for the game. Like a new civilizarion or sound tracks are DLC. When you are adding continents and new rules, etc it is an expansion.
The worse offense is when they sell you the data on the physical disk but you have to pay extra to unlock it...

Yeah, I separate DLC with full blown expansions. Like Crusader Kings II is a good example, they had shit loads of DLC, with a few expansions. Sure they are called DLC, but they really are expansion packs for the game. Like a new civilizarion or sound tracks are DLC. When you are adding continents and new rules, etc it is an expansion.
The worse offense is when they sell you the data on the physical disk but you have to pay extra to unlock it...

I must say I really like the DLC for Total War: Warhammer, most of them are adding new playable races with new mechanics.

As you said the worst are the ones that are just unlocking the content you already have. EA could be probably a good example of this, you pay full price for the game and most of the things are still behind paywall, when you start playing.

This is why it's almost a breath of fresh air for me to just play games on an Amiga or Atari ST. That and to be able to just double click on an icon or put in a (sometimes virtual) floppy disk and have it load up the game. No DLC, no pay to win, Just the game to play!

I'm now playing Blood Bowl 2 and it could be played without creating an online account, but the game is just missing some of the functionality. But I can't agree with the DLC part, we had them in the 90's there were just called datadiscs and added plenty of new functionalities. What is shame, that the DLC often lets you pay for only cosmetic things or something that should have been in the original game from beginning.

And the worst DLCs are those that are just dividing the online community, like DLC with multiplayer maps, which are not playable for others.

As you said the games should be just fun to play and not only for making money. I have some favorites developers in this case, which are creating games that are fun to play and you don't need to pay additional money to enjoy them. Some of them are even updating the games years after release. :-) You just don't see them creating any AAA titles.

Yeah, I separate DLC with full blown expansions. Like Crusader Kings II is a good example, they had shit loads of DLC, with a few expansions. Sure they are called DLC, but they really are expansion packs for the game. Like a new civilizarion or sound tracks are DLC. When you are adding continents and new rules, etc it is an expansion.
The worse offense is when they sell you the data on the physical disk but you have to pay extra to unlock it...

Reminding me of the one of the first crapple touchpod things (basically an iphone without the phone component). The hardware itself came with Bluetooth, but you had to pay extra about 6 months after release for an OS update to actually use it.

But anyway yes I agree with you in separating DLC from expansions. Quite often DLC is already part of a basic game, and just gets carved out before release so they can try make more money for no extra effort. I lament how (big budget) games used to be about gaming, and now so much of it is about trying to squeeze every last drop from the customer through trickery rather than actually making something decent in the first place. And I'd best stop there before I descend into the madness of a wall-of-text rant on the matter.

Speaking of trickery, has anyone seen the mess of eBay and RTX 30 cards? People are selling 500+ dollar PICTURES of graphics cards. Some at least claim it is to mess with bots. But still, wtf?
This video carx and CPU shortage from AMD/Nvidia is really pissing me off.