Stadia to see more than 100 games through 2021

Quoting: GuestI'll reiterate: "Proton" is not the way forward for GNU/Linux games.

C'mon mirv, I take you on in this discussion instead.

Just like you, I want more native Linux games. Now how do we get more native Linux games? 2 ways:
1. If it's profitable enough for the developer to support Linux
2. If doing a native Linux version requires very little additional work

1
So how can it be more profitable for devs to support Linux? If more gamers use Linux. How will more gamers use Linux? If there are more Linux games. But wait.. Isn't that a dependency circle? Yes it is. So aside from more native games, how will more gamers adapt Linux for gaming? Through tools that allow them to run a game on Linux that isn't natively supported. In comes Stadia. But what about those many many people who don't have a really fast internet connection? Out goes Stadia. In comes Wine/Proton. So there you go. Along with Stadia and other streaming services, not only is Proton a way forward for GNU/Linux, it is the only way forward.

Now why would those people switch to Linux to use a Windows compatibility layer on it, if they can just keep using Windows? Good question. And there is only one real answer: They don't like Windows. If this condition isn't met, there is no real reason for them to switch to Linux. However, if this condition is met, Wine is the necessary step to get them started on Linux (aside from people who have a fast internet connection and can use streaming services).

2
How can doing native Linux version be made easier for game developers? Better Linux support for game engines and third party tools.

- For proprietary engines and tools, what would make them have better Linux support? If supporting Linux was more profitable. What will make supporting Linux more profitable? If more people use Linux. Sow we back to point 1.

- For free open source non profit engines and tools, that's a different story. That's why I always say people who really want to support gaming on Linux should donate to Godot instead of buying countless native games, most of which they never even play.

Quoting: rustybroomhandle

Quoting: GuestChill out dude/dudette.

You are still being useless troll.

I will quote myself also:

Quoting: rustybroomhandle"When Proton does get marketed to developers it will be in the form of a feature complete build target. ie "Here, support this, ktnx"

Quoting: rustybroomhandleI also said that Valve would probably present it as a solution to developers once it's in a complete enough state. I have no feelings about this either way.

These two quotes of mine say the same thing. You literally made 0 argument and have not answered my question asking how Microsoft takes control away from a Linux user that plays Windows games using Proton.

I'm not speaking to you any more. I'd have more meaningful discussion with an infected boil.

Please calm down, no need for name calling. I believe mirv is simply trying to expand on what I said, about targetting Proton simply being Windows. The point is: Microsoft control everything about it, because Proton is basically copying and following Windows so Microsoft have the ultimate control over what it does and where it goes.


Last edited by Liam Dawe on 14 February 2021 at 10:14 am UTC

Quoting: Liam DaweI believe mirv is simply trying to expand on what I said, about targetting Protom simply being Windows. The point is: Microsoft control everything about it, because Proton is basically copying and following Windows so Microsoft have the ultimate control over what it does and where it goes.

I think what both of you are trying to say is that Proton/Wine is tied to Windows. That way it's more clear, 100% true and not blown out of proportion.

Targeting Proton =/= targeting Windows. Targeting Proton = targeting Windows, while making sure it works on Linux through Wine. Which correct me if I'm wrong, but no developer ever did so far. Yes there was that No Man's Sky patch which makes the game run better on Proton, but that was done only after they got complains from Linux gamers. They initial answer was: That's a Valve thing. Then they probably figured out it is not that much hassle to fix it, so they did it. Very different from actually targeting Proton.

Quoting: GuestNot officially, but there are a small few of their devs who will fix wine issues and add them into the patches.

Again, that's not the same as actually targeting Proton. Targeting Proton would be if the dev officialy made it clear that they intent for the game to work through Proton.

And don't worry you are not being a pedantic a-hole I'm actually glad you mentioned it, as I didn't know about it. I just don't see how it is different from the example I mentioned with No Man's Sky.

Quoting: RoosterTargeting Proton =/= targeting Windows. Targeting Proton = targeting Windows, while making sure it works on Linux through Wine. Which correct me if I'm wrong, but no developer ever did so far.

Actually I will correct myself. Targeting Proton, which is basically just Wine, so targeting Wine, was done in the past. For example for Witcher 2, where the developer included the compatibility layer with the game for Linux. Which if you think about it, is the only sensible way for developer to target Wine (Proton).

Still very different from just targeting Windows.

Quoting: Rooster

Quoting: GuestNot officially, but there are a small few of their devs who will fix wine issues and add them into the patches.

Again, that's not the same as actually targeting Proton. Targeting Proton would be if the dev officialy made it clear that they intent for the game to work through Proton.

And don't worry you are not being a pedantic a-hole I'm actually glad you mentioned it, as I didn't know about it. I just don't see how it is different from the example I mentioned with No Man's Sky.

Yeah, Blizzard just threw a bone a few times to Linux players over the years and not much else. Targetting Proton would mean having Linux machines setup, with regular testing and if something breaks to not roll it out - and who is really going to do that?

Quoting: Liam Dawe

Quoting: Rooster

Quoting: GuestNot officially, but there are a small few of their devs who will fix wine issues and add them into the patches.

Again, that's not the same as actually targeting Proton. Targeting Proton would be if the dev officialy made it clear that they intent for the game to work through Proton.

And don't worry you are not being a pedantic a-hole I'm actually glad you mentioned it, as I didn't know about it. I just don't see how it is different from the example I mentioned with No Man's Sky.

Yeah, Blizzard just threw a bone a few times to Linux players over the years and not much else. Targetting Proton would mean having Linux machines setup, with regular testing and if something breaks to not roll it out - and who is really going to do that?

Yep, I agree, no one.
I don't think targeting Proton should ever be a thing, I was simply arguing that targeting Proton =/= targeting Windows.

Quoting: RoosterTargeting Proton, which is basically just Wine, so targeting Wine, was done in the past. For example for Witcher 2, where the developer included the compatibility layer with the game for Linux.

Just a quick correction: Virtual Programming used their own wrapper called eON to port the game to Linux. Not Wine.

Quoting: Guest1. Definitely agree, profit would drive developer (or maybe that should be publisher, but I think we all mean the same thing under "developer" as an umbrella term). I would say less about more gamers using GNU/Linux though, rather more people using (desktop) GNU/Linux. Subtle perhaps, but as I see it the gaming will come from the latter as opposed to driving it, so there's no real dependency circle (as I see it).

Well.. I myself am a Linux user first and gamer second. I used the word "gamers" (a word I don't like btw) to specifically refer to people for whom being able to game on the platform is much more important for switching over. Of course gaming is not the actual driver, otherwise switching wouldn't make sense for them. But it is something that prevents them from switching, that's where the dependency cycle comes from.

Quoting: GuestThat kinda makes wine more useful for those already using GNU/Linux, not as a tool for adoption in the first place.

Why not both?

Quoting: Guest1.1) if wine+dxvk (and dxvk was the trigger behind the recent surge in wine usage, and Valve's interest) was such the way forward, why are Google not using it to power games through Stadia?

Wine+dxvk is a way forward for Linux adoption, but a step back for Linux native development. For now. Once we reach like 5% market share on Steam, I will be the first to tell people that they should only buy native games. However right now, wine+dxvk is the "necessary evil" to get there.

Quoting: Guest1.2) what about the legal status behind wine, and even dxvk? Nobody has really wanted to answer that, nobody really wants to face it, but you can be sure Microsoft will jump in should they consider it useful to retain users.

When Microsoft jumps in and renders wine/dxvk useless through legal or other ways, it would make the need of native Linux version much bigger with now even more Linux users/gamers who adopted Linux in the meantime so.. Yay?


Last edited by Rooster on 14 February 2021 at 11:33 am UTC

I won't spend a dime on this dumpster fire of a service, or any other Google service in general, ever.

Imagine giving a considerable amount of money to Google to play the triple-a-game-du-jour and lose access to it when your gmail account gets blocked for whatever unexplicable reason, or Stadia just ceases to exist.

No thanks.