Looks like a possible Valve Index 2 will make their VR kit go wireless

The real question is if it will be able to play games straight from the steam pal...

So, I think the idea is to use the same kind of tech as game streaming; the computer renders the scene based on position information from the headset, and sends essentially a 360° video stream to the headset, which can be freely navigated using the headset. If there's enough bandwidth, that could be quite interesting.

Quoting: GuestIt would be great if you could have the choice. Either use it wireless or plug it in for higher quality or rather less input lag and such. So you can decide for yourself how you wanna use it.

It most likely works the same way or similarly to the HTC's wireless addon, in which case, yeah you can use it wireless or plugged in.

There was a guy on youtube talking about this being a thing rather than the 'SteamPal' and that the other patents that were filed were about either a wireless adapter for the Index, or a potential Index 2. We'd need better video cards for an Index 2.

Quoting: CatKillerSo, I think the idea is to use the same kind of tech as game streaming; the computer renders the scene based on position information from the headset, and sends essentially a 360° video stream to the headset, which can be freely navigated using the headset. If there's enough bandwidth, that could be quite interesting.

Ya know, if they included depth information per pixel, it would be possible to not only correctly correct the 360 image to adjust for head rotation, but also give proper depth displacement to the 360 video to account for head movement with near zero latency as well. Would hide a lot of latency or frame rate issues in most circumstances.

Quoting: gradyvuckovic

Quoting: CatKillerSo, I think the idea is to use the same kind of tech as game streaming; the computer renders the scene based on position information from the headset, and sends essentially a 360° video stream to the headset, which can be freely navigated using the headset. If there's enough bandwidth, that could be quite interesting.

Ya know, if they included depth information per pixel, it would be possible to not only correctly correct the 360 image to adjust for head rotation, but also give proper depth displacement to the 360 video to account for head movement with near zero latency as well. Would hide a lot of latency or frame rate issues in most circumstances.

Pretty sure that tech is OLD. Like Atari Jaguar old (with z-depth). Unless you're talking about something else? Kind of required for most 3D stuff in general.

Quoting: gradyvuckovic

Quoting: CatKillerSo, I think the idea is to use the same kind of tech as game streaming; the computer renders the scene based on position information from the headset, and sends essentially a 360° video stream to the headset, which can be freely navigated using the headset. If there's enough bandwidth, that could be quite interesting.

Ya know, if they included depth information per pixel, it would be possible to not only correctly correct the 360 image to adjust for head rotation, but also give proper depth displacement to the 360 video to account for head movement with near zero latency as well. Would hide a lot of latency or frame rate issues in most circumstances.

So, looking at the patent, that seems to be something that's also included in the stream. The headset sends movement data, and the computer guesstimates where the headset will be at render time based on that. The stream it sends to the headset includes pixel data (so, the video stream) as well as pose data, depth data, motion vector data, parallax occlusion data, and "extra pixel data." So if the next frame is late, or the guesstimate is a bit wrong, the headset has enough data to correct for it. Could be neat.

Also, the computer seems to render the scene, but the headset renders the player model, which should also reduce any latency discrepancy between what the player's doing and what they're seeing.


Last edited by CatKiller on 21 June 2021 at 4:46 pm UTC

Quoting: CatKillerSo, I think the idea is to use the same kind of tech as game streaming; the computer renders the scene based on position information from the headset, and sends essentially a 360° video stream to the headset, which can be freely navigated using the headset. If there's enough bandwidth, that could be quite interesting.

That does sound far from efficient at all.
It means that the host needs to render 360 instead of 100 degrees, so 3,6 times as much on the turn, and then we need a lot more for up down.
However if it would compile the scene to simple objects and can do a lot of the z axis calculations, and compile/precalculate a lot of the textures, it would make it a lot easier for the HMD.

Whatever they do, I want to know. I was discussing scene compilation/simplification and texture downloading to the HMD to get a split rendering system without a lot of bandwidth usage (like X11 does until chrome came, or network opengl) a few years ago. I am at least glad that Valve proofs I was not a fool ;-).

Quoting: HoriThe index cable is very fragile. Mine broke recently. Fortunately they do provide a free replacement for it, at least.
But after that I am now constantly worried that it will break again suddenly.

Where did it break at? The connector to the splitter that goes to the back of the PC always seemed a bit flimsy to me and I always worry when I unplug / move it around. Glad they replaced it for free!

Wouldn't have to be 360, something with a reasonable overscan (like 150°-180° maybe) would be sufficient since the screen refreshes that quickly anyways.

But this does sound like it could maybe even connect to a SteamPal then... interesting. I wonder if it will run Android or regular Linux on the headset itself though.

Quoting: JuliusWouldn't have to be 360, something with a reasonable overscan (like 150°-180° maybe) would be sufficient since the screen refreshes that quickly anyways.

But this does sound like it could maybe even connect to a SteamPal then... interesting. I wonder if it will run Android or regular Linux on the headset itself though.

I'm betting Linux. None of the SoCs for ARM seem to have open source video drivers, which has caused heaps of problems getting updates onto the things. Though likely it'll be pretty embedded.

Quoting: slaapliedjeI'm betting Linux. None of the SoCs for ARM seem to have open source video drivers, which has caused heaps of problems getting updates onto the things. Though likely it'll be pretty embedded.

This is a bit outdated, the Panfrost drivers for Mali GPUs actually work fine and are fully open source, in fact most ARM GPUs have open-source OpenGL drivers these days, but they support status differs.

However Vulkan support is not as great yet so that might make things difficult.

Overall though, I could also imagine Valve going for an Android solution, as making a stand-alone capable headset and then having no games for it would not be very wise for business. While if it runs Android, then most Occulus Quest games should be quite easy to port over. But if Valve would sponsor Anbox (a compatibility layer to run Android apps on GNU-Linux) development, that would be also cool :)

So instead of being essentially a fancy display, the headset will have its own GPU?

That moves things into interesting direction of eventually rendering everything on the headset itself, but I guess they need to get small enough first while being powerful. Current GPUs required for VR use a ton of power and need serious heat dissipation.


Last edited by Shmerl on 21 June 2021 at 7:11 pm UTC

Valve Quest?

Quoting: ShmerlSo instead of being essentially a fancy display, the headset will have its own GPU?

That moves things into interesting direction of eventually rendering everything on the headset itself, but I guess they need to get small enough first while being powerful. Current GPUs required for VR use a ton of power and need serious heat dissipation.

Standalone VR headsets already exist with their own GPU. The Oculus Quest uses the Adreno 540 and the Quest 2 uses the Adreno 650. In terms of graphics power they're pretty weak, but going stronger risks melting your face. The idea of this is that you can offload some of the face melting stuff to a different machine, but have enough local processing power that the latency doesn't make you hurl.

Quoting: Hori

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: HoriThe index cable is very fragile. Mine broke recently. Fortunately they do provide a free replacement for it, at least.
But after that I am now constantly worried that it will break again suddenly.

Where did it break at? The connector to the splitter that goes to the back of the PC always seemed a bit flimsy to me and I always worry when I unplug / move it around. Glad they replaced it for free!

Honestly not sure. I'm almost sure it is the trident/splitter, but I didn't yet try it with the new tether, so I cannot confirm.
I think it broke something related to the USB wiring since lsusb stopped showing anything except for the cameras (which still worked in Cheese)

I used to use the Index in such a way that the cable took a sharp corner behind my tv and through the wall and into the PC on the other side. This is why I think it is the trident that broke since that was the part under stress...
Either that or the connector between the trident and the tether, since I had to replug it for every session and after digging info on the internet, people say it is a very fragile connector that should *not* be regularly replugged.

Now with the new cable I just use it normally, no going through the wall, no hiding and no replugging the trident connector. I just unplug the whole thing from the PC end and that is it. Until the extension cables order (DP and USB extensions) arrive then I can cable manage those through the wall instead of the proprietary and expensive and fragile index cable.

Yeah, that's the part I'd have assumed broke, that connects into the Power/DP/USB cable. It seemed really flimsy even when I first opened mine. You'd think they'd have used some hardy DIN connector or something thick, not the equivalent of a Display Port cable that was slimmed down!

Yes Please! My bungee-system makes the cable less of a nuisance, but it still can be annoying as heck in games with a lot of movement ^^

I always thought, that the VR Kit is just a dump display and that all the compute stuff is done on the PC anyways.

I mean, it is just to small screens, isn't it? With sensors of course, but the computing and rendering, I thought, is done on the PC.

The tracking and stuff is done with the lighthouses and that data is to be computed on the PC, so that he game knows about it.

Quoting: Julius

Quoting: slaapliedjeI'm betting Linux. None of the SoCs for ARM seem to have open source video drivers, which has caused heaps of problems getting updates onto the things. Though likely it'll be pretty embedded.

This is a bit outdated, the Panfrost drivers for Mali GPUs actually work fine and are fully open source, in fact most ARM GPUs have open-source OpenGL drivers these days, but they support status differs.

However Vulkan support is not as great yet so that might make things difficult.

Overall though, I could also imagine Valve going for an Android solution, as making a stand-alone capable headset and then having no games for it would not be very wise for business. While if it runs Android, then most Occulus Quest games should be quite easy to port over. But if Valve would sponsor Anbox (a compatibility layer to run Android apps on GNU-Linux) development, that would be also cool :)

If that were accurate, attempts at making open source phones would have more platforms to choose from, and it seems to me the only ones they do tend to pick are the Mali GPUs. I'd have to look into it again, it has actually been a while. Still waiting on my Librem 5 phone...

Quoting: slaapliedjeIf that were accurate, attempts at making open source phones would have more platforms to choose from, and it seems to me the only ones they do tend to pick are the Mali GPUs. I'd have to look into it again, it has actually been a while. Still waiting on my Librem 5 phone...

See for example this: https://youtu.be/ZYCGVzkSIpg

But finding a suitable ARM SoC for a Linux phone is way more complicated than "just" having open GPU drivers for it.

Quoting: Julius

Quoting: slaapliedjeIf that were accurate, attempts at making open source phones would have more platforms to choose from, and it seems to me the only ones they do tend to pick are the Mali GPUs. I'd have to look into it again, it has actually been a while. Still waiting on my Librem 5 phone...

See for example this: https://youtu.be/ZYCGVzkSIpg

But finding a suitable ARM SoC for a Linux phone is way more complicated than "just" having open GPU drivers for it.

Yeah, that's just one of the big show stoppers, well that and being able to update Android, as they only build the closed source GPUs for specific kernels.