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PayPalFor anyone who has been around Linux gaming for a while, the names Ryan "Icculus" Gordon and Ethan Lee will be well known as developers who port games to Linux and work on the tech behind tons of games.
Recently, our friends at Nuclear Monster spoke to both about Proton and the upcoming Steam Deck. Both giving a very different outlook on the future of Linux gaming, so it's interesting to see their perspectives on this considering how respected they both are for their work. For those who don't know Ryan Gordon maintains a lot of SDL, the MojoSetup installer (used by GOG), MojoShader, and ports to various platforms (not just Linux). Ethan Lee created FNA, the reimplementation of Microsoft's XNA, and Lee has probably ported more to Linux than anyone else (along with macOS too).
In the post with Ryan Gordon, it starts off with a little personal thought from the writer (who is sceptical of relying on Wine/Proton) but Gordon sees it differently. Gordon mentions it's no longer a case of talking about how many people directly use Linux of the desktop or how many install SteamOS but the focus will be on sales number for what's basically a type of games console. It is an interesting point, as eventually it could lead to millions of people with a Linux-powered handheld:
And maybe someday down the road, if this is wildly successful, we tell people that it’s a no-brainer to target 18 bazillion Linux users that aren’t Linux users so much as customers reliably running a Linux-based game console. The end result for you and me—clicking “install” in our desktop Steam client—is the same, even if it took millions of unaware and uninterested other people to get us there.
Ryan Gordon - Nuclear Monster Interview
The subject of porting to Linux did come up too. Since Valve have and continue to invest into Steam Play Proton, they're telling developers you don't need to port. Here's what Gordon had to say on that:
Even in the short term, one can always make the argument: okay, sure, your Windows game runs here, but you want more performance, more control, and no worries that Proton didn’t quite paper over some Windows thing weirdly? Then stop letting Valve treat your game like some RetroPie target and do a real Linux port. That choice is available to you now, almost six months before anyone will hold a Steam Deck.
Ryan Gordon - Nuclear Monster Interview
Gordon further mentions how we should hustle, not think of it as some kind of funeral for Linux gaming.
The complete opposite it true when Nuclear Monster spoke to Ethan Lee, who was far more negative about the whole situation. Lee sees Proton as an "essential preservation project" and did even contribute work to it when contracting for CodeWeavers. However, Lee seems to think that Proton and Valve's marketing with the Steam Deck will result in packing up shop and moving on from game porting:
I have my remaining contractual obligations, but short of a complete 180 from Valve that is very very loud I have to walk away and go do other things for a living. A course correction is unlikely, as they seem abnormally confident that developers will just magically come to me after the device’s inevitable success, which is basically asking me to just casually accept that I’m going to endure even bigger losses than I already have with an empty promise that my business will turn around based on a third party’s big risk that they think anyone can endure. It feels very like much I built my own casket having worked on Proton, and as they’re shoveling dirt onto me they’re going “don’t worry, you’ll be fine when someone else finds you!”
Ethan Lee - Nuclear Monster Interview
Sounds like Lee will also be moving away from FNA development too. Both interviews are worth a read.
What are your thoughts? You can see some of our early thoughts in a previous article.
Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
Quoting: constThe final goal isn't every game getting ported to Linux, it's every new game project taking linux into consideration and using the tools that let them support us.What I'd like to see is developers not thinking in terms of "ports" at all, but to have Linux builds as part of their standard development and testing routine for their PC release. They'll squash more bugs before release that way, just from having more lenses to examine their code with. They'll have saved time and money even without a single sale. Then they only need to make a depot of their existing, working, tested, Linux build the same as their Windows build.
First I understand Ethan's point, he's probably feeling "betrayed" because Valve's decision affects directly his revenue, but I think stop programming for good it's a little over reacting in this case (unless of course he was already thinking about that before and wants to do something else)
But I think Valve has a point in this case, they can't afford another failing like Steam Machines, which was a scenario where they depended entirely on third part developers porting to linux, and in the end we all saw what happened. Failing again and Valve may considerably reduce its investment on Linux gaming, and we don't have any other company to back it up in this case.
The best
May this hypothetical scenario partially come true, and Top developers like Ethan may start to receive some requests from big companies too.
I never saw Gabe Newell or any official announcement from Valve saying they are aiming on increase Linux adoption like some people seems to pretend that the case, after all most of their revenue come from windows players, Linux for them is only so they can have more independence and to make sure Microsoft won't interfere in Valve's business. And this is perfectly ok!
Valve has no obligation to us Linux users, we just have a seller/consumer relation like anyone else (they're not the "saviors" of Linux desktop) but fortunately their business models generates some benefits for us despite not being their main goal.
At lets be honest, a lot of us don't care about something like steam deck either. In my case for example I can't buy one even if I want, so my interest in this project it's the possible benefits of this project helping games to run better on my pc/notebook with [INSERT PREFERRED DISTRO], and I suspect this is the case with more people than they'll admit
.And this is perfectly ok too!
Quoting: LoftyI've always hated that particular saying. Cuz, you know, it isn't. Sure, you can cherry pick cases where good intentions lead to bad outcomes. But come on, what's it supposed to mean? Does it mean you should have BAD intentions so you go to Heaven? What?Quoting: dubigrasuwe have a saying: befriend the devil until you cross the bridge.
we also have a saying: the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
There's plenty of intentions out there that aren't good, and they are what cause most of the problems.
https://mdiluz.micro.blog/2021/07/19/native-linux-ports.html
It's an interesting read and adds another perspective to that discussion.
Last edited by jens on 21 July 2021 at 9:24 pm UTC
Quoting: jensThis blog post appeared on the GoL discord server:It is an interesting read. On one hand, it's pretty explicitly saying that Proton or something like it (with the needed ingredients of Vulkan and stuff like DXVK) is the solution.
https://mdiluz.micro.blog/2021/07/19/native-linux-ports.html
It's an interesting read and adds another perspective to that discussion.
On the other, it strikes me as implicitly (although the poster himself maybe has a blind spot for that because his background is very specifically in porting existing games) supporting the point made often but in this thread mainly by CatKiller, that it's best to develop cross-platform from the start rather than developing with an orientation to one platform and then having to make tons of changes to port to another.
Everyone needs a certain amount of planning security. You have to be able to look around for something new without worrying. I also don't know if Linux is really so far that you should let all the know-how go. How many people are there who know so much about Ethan's field? Sound problems are the nastiest in gaming. Something the brain can't block out. Makes a game basically unplayable.
Quoting: Purple Library GuyIt strikes me that Lee's reaction is kind of forgetting that all the existing Linux desktops, that up to now have been the only reason for releasing native Linux games, will still be there after the Steam Deck releases. Even if people targeting the Steam Deck ignore native releases, that doesn't actually shrink the incentive to release native. So I think he might be overreacting.
Well it's not easy to see all that you have spent thousands of hours building up come crumbling down, and having once been in the same situation I fully understand Ethan:s feelings here. I do hope that he realised soon however that he is one hell of a developer and that there are millions of other things than conversions that can use a man of his talents, then at some point in time conversions will be back again and he can return to what he loves to do.
Let me lay out a couple of distinctions. So, up to now, most games have run on Proton as it were by co-incidence. The makers of those games have no interest in Linux, may have barely heard of Linux, and the fact that the games run is all down to the hard work and talents of the Wine and Proton and DXVK developers. There seem to be a few exceptions to this, we've lately seen game developers say things about trying to ensure their game runs well on Proton, but it seems fairly rare. So, we have a big population of games and developers that don't give a hoot about Linux, and many of the games run on Proton despite this.
So then there are the somewhat smaller group of developers who do care about Linux somewhat. What impact has Proton had, up to now, on that smaller group? Well, it doesn't seem to have really stopped people from developing games in cross-platform ways that include Linux, as far as I can tell. There's still a strong stream of new games supporting Linux from the beginning. Maybe it's tailed off a bit since the heady days when people thought the Steam Machines might be a thing, but that's been a long gradual thing and I haven't noticed it getting worse since Proton. One might have expected that to happen, but I don't think it did.
But it does seem like the existence of Proton has already reduced the viability of the porting business as such; note the way Feral has basically moved on from doing that and nobody has really replaced them. Why spend all that money and effort porting an existing game when it probably works fine on Proton already, or can be made to do so pretty easily?
If the Steam Deck succeeds, it seems like it will greatly increase the number of developers giving Linux a thought at all. Steam's increased emphasis on Proton, both in terms of telling developers about it and improving the technology itself, does make it even less likely that developers thinking about Linux will bother porting existing games. And even though there will be a lot more of them, Ethan Lee might be quite right that the chance they'll bother doing a port will drop so low that there will still be a lot fewer ports happening. Anyone who just started thinking about Linux because of the Steam Deck will, when looking at their back catalogue, surely conclude that as long as the games run on Proton that should be fine--any improvement wouldn't be worth the cost and effort of making a port. Ryan Gordon may indeed be disappointed if he tries to persuade more people to port their existing games.
But new games, and the decision to target Linux or not from the beginning, is a different question. Going forward, there will be two factors--on one hand, Linux has far more visibility and users than before; on the other, that target can at least somewhat be satisfied by paying attention to having it work in Proton. Which factor will dominate? Based on what we've seen to date, with that side being less impacted by Proton, I think it's likely the first factor will dominate and overall, while some developers may not build for Linux because Proton is good enough, the gain from it being a bigger platform will be greater.
So if I had to make a guess I'd expect, if the Steam Deck is a big success, in the end we'll see fewer ports but more games built Linux native from the start. Which suggests that Mr. Lee and Mr. Gordon's best bet might be to shift to consulting on how to properly do cross-platform Linux friendly development on new games, rather than porting old ones. Although I'd certainly be happy enough to see Valve hire Ethan Lee, as he suggests, to work on infrastructure.
Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 21 July 2021 at 10:44 pm UTC
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