Ryan Gordon and Ethan Lee on Proton and the Steam Deck

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Lofty

Quoting: dubigrasuwe have a saying: befriend the devil until you cross the bridge.

we also have a saying: the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

I've always hated that particular saying. Cuz, you know, it isn't. Sure, you can cherry pick cases where good intentions lead to bad outcomes.. But come on, what's it supposed to mean?

Cherry pick or not it still works in it's intended usage in the moment. It is supposed to mean that an unintended consequence creating a perceived negative outcome is as a result of good will to adapt or improve something, but it actually makes the end result worse. Quite obviously, this does not apply to everything, but it doesn't need to as you wouldn't be using that phrase if you didn't think a worse outcome had happened.. of course that is all perception, a perceived truth.

QuoteDoes it mean you should have BAD intentions so you go to Heaven? What?

il quote the wiki on this: "Hell is full of good meanings, but heaven is full of good works"
given it's biblical context, im guessing the answer to your question is no. It's just a proverb.


actually the wikipedia article on this is fairly self explanatory:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_road_to_hell_is_paved_with_good_intentions
(there is an example in there also)

again the wiki:

Quotewriting about altruism, suggests that good intentions are often not what they seem and that mankind normally acts from less worthy, selfish motives—"If the road to hell is paved with good intentions, it is partly because that is the road they generally start out on."

Which is another perspective. I hadn't applied this to Linux gaming using proton/wine, initially at least. But then again perhaps valves good intentions had a predefined path to begin with(they are a corporation after all). Perhaps a perceived good intention by the community was merely an illusion to draw you into a kind of vendor lock in on an open platform.. but that's too cynical i guess.

Back on topic,
i have had access to so many more titles because of proton and they worked better than native in many instances. Given valve have tried the push for native already and it largely didn't work this is the only option left on the table. But to assume altruism from valves part would be naive, they knew their path alright.


(other thoughts, Steam is not the only way to game on Linux. Perhaps one day we might see some sort of opensource gaming store that is fully independent of anything we have now but the question is would you actually want to play any of those titles?)


Last edited by Lofty on 21 July 2021 at 10:47 pm UTC

Quoting: Lofty

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Lofty

Quoting: dubigrasuwe have a saying: befriend the devil until you cross the bridge.

we also have a saying: the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

I've always hated that particular saying. Cuz, you know, it isn't. Sure, you can cherry pick cases where good intentions lead to bad outcomes.. But come on, what's it supposed to mean?

Cherry pick or not it still works in it's intended usage in the moment. It is supposed to mean that an unintended consequence creating a perceived negative outcome is as a result of good will to adapt or improve something, but it actually makes the end result worse. Quite obviously, this does not apply to everything, but it doesn't need to as you wouldn't be using that phrase if you didn't think a worse outcome had happened.. of course that is all perception, a perceived truth.

QuoteDoes it mean you should have BAD intentions so you go to Heaven? What?

il quote the wiki on this: "Hell is full of good meanings, but heaven is full of good works"
given it's biblical context, im guessing the answer to your question is no. It's just a proverb.


actually the wikipedia article on this is fairly self explanatory:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_road_to_hell_is_paved_with_good_intentions
(there is an example in there also)

again the wiki:

Quotewriting about altruism, suggests that good intentions are often not what they seem and that mankind normally acts from less worthy, selfish motives—"If the road to hell is paved with good intentions, it is partly because that is the road they generally start out on."

Which is another perspective. I hadn't applied this to Linux gaming using proton/wine, initially at least. But then again perhaps valves good intentions had a predefined path to begin with(they are a corporation after all). Perhaps a perceived good intention by the community was merely an illusion to draw you into a kind of vendor lock in on an open platform.. but that's too cynical i guess.

Back on topic,
i have had access to so many more titles because of proton and they worked better than native in many instances. Given valve have tried the push for native already and it largely didn't work this is the only option left on the table. But to assume altruism from valves part would be naive, they knew their path alright.


(other thoughts, Steam is not the only way to game on Linux. Perhaps one day we might see some sort of opensource gaming store that is fully independent of anything we have now but the question is would you actually want to play any of those titles?)

I'll be frank: I think modern invocation of that saying stems largely from fuzzy thinking (which is also generally the condition under which good intentions lead to bad outcomes, and it would be a lot more relevant to say so than to blame the good intentions themselves).
But I think the original saying comes from,yes, an older Christian context and basically means that what seems like reasonable ethics may contradict what the priests tell you the will of God says--and under those circumstances, you best be listening to the priests. Or else. Going around listening to your good intentions instead of authority is the way to heresy, so cool it with the thinking for yourself.
So in both modern and earlier contexts, I'm not a big fan.


Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 21 July 2021 at 11:02 pm UTC

Quoting: Purple Library GuyI'll be frank: I think modern invocation of that saying stems largely from fuzzy thinking (which is also generally the condition under which good intentions lead to bad outcomes, and it would be a lot more relevant to say so than to blame the good intentions themselves).

That sounds like a weird form of relativism, i think you may be over complicating the intention. Id be more than happy to talk about this in the PM's if you want but i don't wish to jam this thread up with that discussion at this point.

QuoteBut I think the original saying comes from an older Christian context and basically means that what seems like reasonable ethics may contradict what the priests tell you the will of God says--and under those circumstances, you best be listening to the priests. Or else.

Again, if your inclined i can discuss this in PM's, im not sure gamingonlinux is a suitable place for religious opinions.

Quoting: Lofty(other thoughts, Steam is not the only way to game on Linux. Perhaps one day we might see some sort of opensource gaming store that is fully independent of anything we have now but the question is would you actually want to play any of those titles?)

Quoting: GuestI think it's generally called a package manager.

Do they feature exclusively non foss gaming software?

QuoteIf you mean a store that provides an open source client, itch.io does that. The games themselves aren't typically open source of course.

i did say opensource gaming store. Perhaps i should of said FOSS only Gaming 'store'.


Last edited by Lofty on 21 July 2021 at 11:27 pm UTC

Quoting: Lofty

Quoting: Purple Library GuyI'll be frank: I think modern invocation of that saying stems largely from fuzzy thinking (which is also generally the condition under which good intentions lead to bad outcomes, and it would be a lot more relevant to say so than to blame the good intentions themselves).

That sounds like a weird form of relativism

Relativism?! I have no idea how you pull that out of what I said.

Quoting: Lofty

Quoting: Lofty(other thoughts, Steam is not the only way to game on Linux. Perhaps one day we might see some sort of opensource gaming store that is fully independent of anything we have now but the question is would you actually want to play any of those titles?)

Quoting: GuestI think it's generally called a package manager.

Do they feature exclusively non foss gaming software?

I dunno about your distro, but on Mint if I go to my "Software Manager" (which uses the package manager under the hood of course), and look at the "Games" category, all the games there will be FOSS games and I can readily download and install them. Of course they don't cost any money, so as stores go it's a store where everything's on a 100% off sale. But other than that I don't see much difference from a "Game store".

I just a couple of days ago finished (re)playing a game I installed that way--"Ur-Quan Masters", the FOSS port of Star Control II.


Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 21 July 2021 at 11:48 pm UTC

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Lofty

Quoting: Lofty(other thoughts, Steam is not the only way to game on Linux. Perhaps one day we might see some sort of opensource gaming store that is fully independent of anything we have now but the question is would you actually want to play any of those titles?)

Quoting: GuestI think it's generally called a package manager.

Do they feature exclusively non foss gaming software?

I dunno about your distro, but on Mint if I go to my "Software Manager" (which uses the package manager under the hood of course), and look at the "Games" category, all the games there will be FOSS games and I can readily download and install them. Of course they don't cost any money, so as stores go it's a store where everything's on a 100% off sale. But other than that I don't see much difference from a "Game store".

I just a couple of days ago finished (re)playing a game I installed that way--"Ur-Quan Masters", the FOSS port of Star Control II.

im okay with just using steam TBH.

Star Control is one of the best games ever made for the Amiga.. fond memories. I shall have to try Ur-Quan Masters.


Last edited by Lofty on 22 July 2021 at 12:35 am UTC

I think that one of the things people don't consider in this whole conversation is this;
The cost to develop support for a new platform in a game - either through a port or by fixing up the codebase to be cross-platform - isn't that high in the grand scheme of things, and in the case of Proton it can literally be free for many games.
What actually costs money in having another platform on your "supported platforms" list though is the ongoing costs required for actually supporting your customers on the platform, something that Proton will not really help you with in any particular regard.

And since I doubt Valve are going to allow games to sell Steam Deck/SteamOS/Linux support without actually delivering - see Batman: Arkham Knight as one example of a game not delivering, the developers that want to market their game as working on the Deck will have to do their Linux support regardless. And since Proton as a platform is something they don't have any real control over, and that it can change under their feet at any moment - potentially requiring them to fix code that was working just moments ago, the economics for actually doing a proper native version will most likely prevail in the end. If only so that they won't have to do refunds - or answer tough questions on why their game should be allowed to be marketed to Deck users if they can't promise a working experience.

Quoting: CatKiller

Quoting: constThe final goal isn't every game getting ported to Linux, it's every new game project taking linux into consideration and using the tools that let them support us.

What I'd like to see is developers not thinking in terms of "ports" at all, but to have Linux builds as part of their standard development and testing routine for their PC release. They'll squash more bugs before release that way, just from having more lenses to examine their code with. They'll have saved time and money even without a single sale. Then they only need to make a depot of their existing, working, tested, Linux build the same as their Windows build.

I too would like this, a sorta "CI" approach to developing games, regarding supporting platforms (in this case, PC platforms). I'm hoping that through developers being pushed to use technologies like Vulkan for better Proton ports, and developing in a more portable fashion to better support the Deck with Proton, it leads to that happening as native releases are more considered.

Quoting: Lofty

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Lofty

Quoting: Lofty(other thoughts, Steam is not the only way to game on Linux. Perhaps one day we might see some sort of opensource gaming store that is fully independent of anything we have now but the question is would you actually want to play any of those titles?)

Quoting: GuestI think it's generally called a package manager.

Do they feature exclusively non foss gaming software?

I dunno about your distro, but on Mint if I go to my "Software Manager" (which uses the package manager under the hood of course), and look at the "Games" category, all the games there will be FOSS games and I can readily download and install them. Of course they don't cost any money, so as stores go it's a store where everything's on a 100% off sale. But other than that I don't see much difference from a "Game store".

I just a couple of days ago finished (re)playing a game I installed that way--"Ur-Quan Masters", the FOSS port of Star Control II.

im okay with just using steam TBH.

Star Control is one of the best games ever made for the Amiga.. fond memories. I shall have to try Ur-Quan Masters.

Really, IMO it stands up surprisingly well. I still find it a lot of fun.

Check out the releases from Feral Interactive. The number of ports has been drastically reduced. This is certainly also due to Proton ... because if it runs well with Proton, then you don't need a port to play a game on Linux anymore.

Quoting: KuJoCheck out the releases from Feral Interactive. The number of ports has been drastically reduced. This is certainly also due to Proton ... because if it runs well with Proton, then you don't need a port to play a game on Linux anymore.

You assume a correlation between Feral's release reduction and the raise of Proton.
But you don't consider the fact that Feral may have been asked/pushed by Valve to make some ports. If valve is the reason they ported to Linux, and taking into account the fact that we see Valve putting efforts to make games work with wine, it could also be that it's Valve strategy that is at play, not the existence of Proton being a reason "not to port anymore because it works with Proton"

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: toor

Quoting: KuJoCheck out the releases from Feral Interactive. The number of ports has been drastically reduced. This is certainly also due to Proton ... because if it runs well with Proton, then you don't need a port to play a game on Linux anymore.

You assume a correlation between Feral's release reduction and the raise of Proton.
But you don't consider the fact that Feral may have been asked/pushed by Valve to make some ports. If valve is the reason they ported to Linux, and taking into account the fact that we see Valve putting efforts to make games work with wine, it could also be that it's Valve strategy that is at play, not the existence of Proton being a reason "not to port anymore because it works with Proton"

Valve isn't responsible for everything.

Sure not. But I remember the time when they weren't supporting Linux at all and we had only quake-based video games and tux kart.
The arrival of steam seems to be very correlated with the huge increase of Linux targeted games. Although it started already a bit with humble indie bundles.


Last edited by toor on 22 July 2021 at 1:27 pm UTC

Quoting: toorYou assume a correlation between Feral's release reduction and the raise of Proton.
But you don't consider the fact that Feral may have been asked/pushed by Valve to make some ports. If valve is the reason they ported to Linux, and taking into account the fact that we see Valve putting efforts to make games work with wine, it could also be that it's Valve strategy that is at play, not the existence of Proton being a reason "not to port anymore because it works with Proton"

No collusion needed. The perceived potential of Steam Machines created a desire from game developers with no Linux experience to get their games onto Linux, which Feral were happy to fulfil. When that potential failed to materialise, the demand for ports to Linux dried up.

Certainly the success of Proton limits the market for paying someone else to make your Windows game run on Linux when you can't be bothered to do so yourself, but the ports were tailing off before Proton was released.

Quoting: toor

Quoting: KuJoCheck out the releases from Feral Interactive. The number of ports has been drastically reduced. This is certainly also due to Proton ... because if it runs well with Proton, then you don't need a port to play a game on Linux anymore.

You assume a correlation between Feral's release reduction and the raise of Proton.
But you don't consider the fact that Feral may have been asked/pushed by Valve to make some ports. If valve is the reason they ported to Linux, and taking into account the fact that we see Valve putting efforts to make games work with wine, it could also be that it's Valve strategy that is at play, not the existence of Proton being a reason "not to port anymore because it works with Proton"

See https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2021/07/ryan-gordon-and-ethan-lee-on-proton-and-the-steam-deck/comment_id=206976
Marc worked for Feral, this post gives some insights about the difficulties they had.

Quoting: CatKiller

Quoting: toorYou assume a correlation between Feral's release reduction and the raise of Proton.
But you don't consider the fact that Feral may have been asked/pushed by Valve to make some ports. If valve is the reason they ported to Linux, and taking into account the fact that we see Valve putting efforts to make games work with wine, it could also be that it's Valve strategy that is at play, not the existence of Proton being a reason "not to port anymore because it works with Proton"

No collusion needed. The perceived potential of Steam Machines created a desire from game developers with no Linux experience to get their games onto Linux, which Feral were happy to fulfil. When that potential failed to materialise, the demand for ports to Linux dried up.

Certainly the success of Proton limits the market for paying someone else to make your Windows game run on Linux when you can't be bothered to do so yourself, but the ports were tailing off before Proton was released.

End of 2016. It was already visible that ports of AAA titles were getting fewer and far between. No new IPs, just the continuation of the already started series and many of them are done or porting just stopped (F1 Series). Maybe we will see futur ports of Dirt, Life is Strange or Total War games... Maybe (if the tech is not too alien for Feral's used solutions for previous titles). But it didn't happen because of Proton.


Last edited by Mohandevir on 22 July 2021 at 2:45 pm UTC

Quoting: Purple Library GuyAfter musing a bit longer, I think Ethan Lee has a point, but it's a limited one. That is, I think he may be right that it's going to be hard to get work porting games to Linux, which is hard on him and I'm sorry for it, and yet I think going forward a successful Steam Deck will still lead to more native Linux games.
Let me lay out a couple of distinctions. So, up to now, most games have run on Proton as it were by co-incidence. The makers of those games have no interest in Linux, may have barely heard of Linux, and the fact that the games run is all down to the hard work and talents of the Wine and Proton and DXVK developers. There seem to be a few exceptions to this, we've lately seen game developers say things about trying to ensure their game runs well on Proton, but it seems fairly rare. So, we have a big population of games and developers that don't give a hoot about Linux, and many of the games run on Proton despite this.

So then there are the somewhat smaller group of developers who do care about Linux somewhat. What impact has Proton had, up to now, on that smaller group? Well, it doesn't seem to have really stopped people from developing games in cross-platform ways that include Linux, as far as I can tell. There's still a strong stream of new games supporting Linux from the beginning. Maybe it's tailed off a bit since the heady days when people thought the Steam Machines might be a thing, but that's been a long gradual thing and I haven't noticed it getting worse since Proton. One might have expected that to happen, but I don't think it did.

But it does seem like the existence of Proton has already reduced the viability of the porting business as such; note the way Feral has basically moved on from doing that and nobody has really replaced them. Why spend all that money and effort porting an existing game when it probably works fine on Proton already, or can be made to do so pretty easily?

If the Steam Deck succeeds, it seems like it will greatly increase the number of developers giving Linux a thought at all. Steam's increased emphasis on Proton, both in terms of telling developers about it and improving the technology itself, does make it even less likely that developers thinking about Linux will bother porting existing games. And even though there will be a lot more of them, Ethan Lee might be quite right that the chance they'll bother doing a port will drop so low that there will still be a lot fewer ports happening. Anyone who just started thinking about Linux because of the Steam Deck will, when looking at their back catalogue, surely conclude that as long as the games run on Proton that should be fine--any improvement wouldn't be worth the cost and effort of making a port. Ryan Gordon may indeed be disappointed if he tries to persuade more people to port their existing games.

But new games, and the decision to target Linux or not from the beginning, is a different question. Going forward, there will be two factors--on one hand, Linux has far more visibility and users than before; on the other, that target can at least somewhat be satisfied by paying attention to having it work in Proton. Which factor will dominate? Based on what we've seen to date, with that side being less impacted by Proton, I think it's likely the first factor will dominate and overall, while some developers may not build for Linux because Proton is good enough, the gain from it being a bigger platform will be greater.

So if I had to make a guess I'd expect, if the Steam Deck is a big success, in the end we'll see fewer ports but more games built Linux native from the start. Which suggests that Mr. Lee and Mr. Gordon's best bet might be to shift to consulting on how to properly do cross-platform Linux friendly development on new games, rather than porting old ones. Although I'd certainly be happy enough to see Valve hire Ethan Lee, as he suggests, to work on infrastructure.

I wanted also to point out that, while Valve is pushing for Proton, all sales that we be made from (unmodified) Steam Deck will count as Linux sales, which could help when deciding wether or not doing a native port/version.

Quoting: KuJoCheck out the releases from Feral Interactive. The number of ports has been drastically reduced. This is certainly also due to Proton ... because if it runs well with Proton, then you don't need a port to play a game on Linux anymore.

The number of ports and releases per year had already dramatically declined well before proton got released. Our community was very very worried where the trend led.


Last edited by const on 22 July 2021 at 4:30 pm UTC

Question...

I've been trying to follow the discussion and would like your opinions.
Are people here upset that proton is possibly reducing the number of native ports or are you more update that proton/wine is possibly creating a platform independent target for devs to aim at where the standard is Windows?

I'm no Dev or anything, so I know I'm over simplifying a bit. I was thinking of it being similar to Python or other languages where you target the language and an interpretor does the magic work for each specific OS. If you're developing in Godot or unity or any other multiplatform engine, isn't that kinda similar? There's some frame work that you rely on to do some of that heavy lifting at some point, right?

Only with wine/proton, that Target/standard is Windows.

I can kinda see Mr. Lee's point. Porting as an obstacle to be removed in the eyes valve and others.

Quoting: denyasisAre people here upset that proton is possibly reducing the number of native ports or are you more update that proton/wine is possibly creating a platform independent target for devs to aim at where the standard is Windows?

I don't think you can really separate this. The problem with not having native ports is that the standard for the others (running on Proton) is Windows. You're literally running .exe files on Linux. With Unity or Godot or the like, you get Linux binaries.