You can now support the Flatpak package format on Open Collective

Quoting: WorMzy

Quoting: F.Ultra

Quoting: PublicNuisanceI don't have a horse in the race but here is an article worth reading as devil's advocate.

https://flatkill.org/2020/

Yes this "next generation" packaging is really the stone age packaging while rpm/apt is the real next-generation. That said, for games the security issues are basically zero (basically but not to 100%) since few games have open external ports or handle random files/data that you feed it like it is for applications.

lol, I've never seen rpm/deb described as 'next-generation'. I can kind of see it with rpm, but deb is something that deserves to be consigned to history as a terrible mistake that future generations should learn from.

Sorry to be so "slashdot" in my reply here but saying so about deb vs rpm show that you don't know how they both actually work. The thing is that rpm and deb are extremely similar with the main difference being that deb:s have far greater helper scripts that among other things means that what does require platform specific .spec files for rpm can be done in a single deb.

RPM/DEB is "next-generation" in the sense that stone age distribution is files in a archive, then came files in a archive with some basic script (this is where the current Windows installers are), then came rpm/deb which is files in a archive with several scripts (pre-install, pre-update, post-install, post-update, post-delete) and most importantly with a dependency tracker. This makes rpm/deb next-generation functionality wise of all the types of packagers available today.

Then comes flatpak, snap and so on which are back to files in a archive but now in a sandbox (sometimes). To me this is a huge step backwards, but it allows the dumb Windows type installers that millions of developers are used to so therefore it became popular.

edit: And I should perhaps add that there are some environments where flatpaks and snaps are the obvious choice and that is for people running virtualized servers.


Last edited by F.Ultra on 30 July 2021 at 2:59 pm UTC

Quoting: andythe_greatNot even openSUSE and Fedora can share the same spec file (a file that contain build instructions) since they some time use difference RPM macros. Maintaining a package across many distros are very tedious.

Yes that is one of the problems with rpm that is not really there with deb:s (I use the exact same files to build deb:s e.g when building for both Debian and Ubuntu). However in their defence, RPM:s where never intended as being used by third parties, they where intended to be used by the distribution maintainers only and there this problem does not exist. That said this is an are where rpm:s could be greatly enhanced, there is nothing in the format itself that prohibits the same .spec to work between distributions.

Quoting: KlausThe other part (mostly relevant for corporate environments) is that a natively or indistinguishable-from-native running version of Microsoft Office releases from the last ten years isn't optional. I tried with OnlyOffice and LibreOffice, but the moment your working with a customer who uses Microsoft Office, you will need it somehow, or the customer will be annoyed at you for breaking their documents; The only solution working properly here is a virtual machine with Windows and native MS Office.

Office is for sure a big issue. Luckily my work doesn't really fiddle documents in that kind of detailed way where an odd looking font here and there will cause any problems, and I don't use any really advanced spreadsheets, so I can get away with LibreOffice. Which is nice, because I hate the bloody ribbon; at this point, I actually like LibreOffice's UI better. But none of that changes the fact that Office remains the standard and for a whole lot of work-type requirements, from document exchanges to high-end Excel features, you really need it.
Does Office work in Wine these days? Man, if I were massively rich I would pay some outfit to get Office, Acrobat and Photoshop all working hiccup-free on Wine, no muss no fuss, maybe with special installers or something just to give people a button to click.

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: KlausThe other part (mostly relevant for corporate environments) is that a natively or indistinguishable-from-native running version of Microsoft Office releases from the last ten years isn't optional. I tried with OnlyOffice and LibreOffice, but the moment your working with a customer who uses Microsoft Office, you will need it somehow, or the customer will be annoyed at you for breaking their documents; The only solution working properly here is a virtual machine with Windows and native MS Office.

Office is for sure a big issue. Luckily my work doesn't really fiddle documents in that kind of detailed way where an odd looking font here and there will cause any problems, and I don't use any really advanced spreadsheets, so I can get away with LibreOffice. Which is nice, because I hate the bloody ribbon; at this point, I actually like LibreOffice's UI better. But none of that changes the fact that Office remains the standard and for a whole lot of work-type requirements, from document exchanges to high-end Excel features, you really need it.
Does Office work in Wine these days? Man, if I were massively rich I would pay some outfit to get Office, Acrobat and Photoshop all working hiccup-free on Wine, no muss no fuss, maybe with special installers or something just to give people a button to click.

Office365?

Quoting: F.Ultra

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: KlausThe other part (mostly relevant for corporate environments) is that a natively or indistinguishable-from-native running version of Microsoft Office releases from the last ten years isn't optional. I tried with OnlyOffice and LibreOffice, but the moment your working with a customer who uses Microsoft Office, you will need it somehow, or the customer will be annoyed at you for breaking their documents; The only solution working properly here is a virtual machine with Windows and native MS Office.

Office is for sure a big issue. Luckily my work doesn't really fiddle documents in that kind of detailed way where an odd looking font here and there will cause any problems, and I don't use any really advanced spreadsheets, so I can get away with LibreOffice. Which is nice, because I hate the bloody ribbon; at this point, I actually like LibreOffice's UI better. But none of that changes the fact that Office remains the standard and for a whole lot of work-type requirements, from document exchanges to high-end Excel features, you really need it.
Does Office work in Wine these days? Man, if I were massively rich I would pay some outfit to get Office, Acrobat and Photoshop all working hiccup-free on Wine, no muss no fuss, maybe with special installers or something just to give people a button to click.

Office365?

Dunno. That's the web thing, right? Does it have all the features of the real thing?


Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 31 July 2021 at 6:38 am UTC

All incompability issues are about how good "support" is. if you support your application it will definitly work with new libraries in new distros thats it. if you dont support it or drop support for it yes. İn some time your app will be dead.
just look at starcraft it just borked in XP outdated libraries. its also borked in windows 10 11 just for outdated starcraft itself. it still works flawless under win95 win98. Or you have to use remastered which is complately working in high res+new libraries with new OSes even works in Linux with 3rd party tools.
About package systems; apt rpm tgz pisi (msi for MS) and so on are the good for precompiled distributing and running apps. But not good for compability,dependency hell,library and peripheral compability issues.
the real thing is compiling from the source it has total compability speed optimizations and so on. But thats stoneage distribution and requires power users to handle errors etc.

either flakpak snap package managers etc.. Linux lacks 1 thing really. one universal distribition system. İmagine you only need 1 type of package and manager. let call it "lpis"
"Linux package installer system" Now we have another diversion beyond snap flat tgz rpm pisi etc etc etc.
We need Standarts Some common things as universal just for more user friendlyness.

For god sake, please no. Flatpaks are a total disaster.

I don't even agree that much with AppImages, but they just do their work and that's it.

And then you have snap and flatpak, and every kind of derivative crap which just bloats, half works, and makes everything harder (and while being full of security and structural flaws).

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: F.Ultra

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: KlausThe other part (mostly relevant for corporate environments) is that a natively or indistinguishable-from-native running version of Microsoft Office releases from the last ten years isn't optional. I tried with OnlyOffice and LibreOffice, but the moment your working with a customer who uses Microsoft Office, you will need it somehow, or the customer will be annoyed at you for breaking their documents; The only solution working properly here is a virtual machine with Windows and native MS Office.

Office is for sure a big issue. Luckily my work doesn't really fiddle documents in that kind of detailed way where an odd looking font here and there will cause any problems, and I don't use any really advanced spreadsheets, so I can get away with LibreOffice. Which is nice, because I hate the bloody ribbon; at this point, I actually like LibreOffice's UI better. But none of that changes the fact that Office remains the standard and for a whole lot of work-type requirements, from document exchanges to high-end Excel features, you really need it.
Does Office work in Wine these days? Man, if I were massively rich I would pay some outfit to get Office, Acrobat and Photoshop all working hiccup-free on Wine, no muss no fuss, maybe with special installers or something just to give people a button to click.

Office365?

Dunno. That's the web thing, right? Does it have all the features of the real thing?

I have zero idea, have not touched Office in over 15 years. Considering that Office365 is a subscription service though I guess that it's where the future of Office lies.

Quoting: ZlopezI'm personally running an ostree distribution...

Update your PC distro specs and join the Silverblue GoL masterrace my dude

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: F.Ultra

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: KlausThe other part (mostly relevant for corporate environments) is that a natively or indistinguishable-from-native running version of Microsoft Office releases from the last ten years isn't optional. I tried with OnlyOffice and LibreOffice, but the moment your working with a customer who uses Microsoft Office, you will need it somehow, or the customer will be annoyed at you for breaking their documents; The only solution working properly here is a virtual machine with Windows and native MS Office.

Office is for sure a big issue. Luckily my work doesn't really fiddle documents in that kind of detailed way where an odd looking font here and there will cause any problems, and I don't use any really advanced spreadsheets, so I can get away with LibreOffice. Which is nice, because I hate the bloody ribbon; at this point, I actually like LibreOffice's UI better. But none of that changes the fact that Office remains the standard and for a whole lot of work-type requirements, from document exchanges to high-end Excel features, you really need it.
Does Office work in Wine these days? Man, if I were massively rich I would pay some outfit to get Office, Acrobat and Photoshop all working hiccup-free on Wine, no muss no fuss, maybe with special installers or something just to give people a button to click.

Office365?

Dunno. That's the web thing, right? Does it have all the features of the real thing?

I think not. For example, last time I checked (quite a long time ago), if I remember correctly, I vaguely remember that it didn't seem possible to insert math equations in Office 365 (but it was possible to use the local client (on Windows 10) and have it synchronize immediately to the web version (so that others using only the web version could see the equations added live)).

If you don't need macro compatibility, perhaps you would also like ONLYOFFICE?

P.S.
https://www.onlyoffice.com/

https://personal.onlyoffice.com/

https://flathub.org/apps/details/org.onlyoffice.desktopeditors


Last edited by s8as8a on 2 August 2021 at 7:57 am UTC

Quoting: kon14

Quoting: ZlopezI'm personally running an ostree distribution...

Update your PC distro specs and join the Silverblue GoL masterrace my dude

I didn't know there is a Silverblue in PC distro specs. I will update it :-D

Quoting: Zlopez

Quoting: kon14

Quoting: ZlopezI'm personally running an ostree distribution...

Update your PC distro specs and join the Silverblue GoL masterrace my dude

I didn't know there is a Silverblue in PC distro specs. I will update it :-D

I asked Liam about adding it not too long ago, don't know whether it registers as "Fedora-based" or "Other" in the base distro section though.

edit: Upon further inspection it's separate, but no big deal.


Last edited by kon14 on 2 August 2021 at 11:55 am UTC

Quoting: s8as8aIf you don't need macro compatibility, perhaps you would also like ONLYOFFICE?

Maybe. Looking at those links, it seems potentially decent. But I like LibreOffice fairly well, and I have confidence that it will continue to exist and see updates, and it's open source--does ONLYOFFICE get me anything LibreOffice doesn't?

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: s8as8aIf you don't need macro compatibility, perhaps you would also like ONLYOFFICE?

Maybe. Looking at those links, it seems potentially decent. But I like LibreOffice fairly well, and I have confidence that it will continue to exist and see updates, and it's open source--does ONLYOFFICE get me anything LibreOffice doesn't?

I meant to use it in addition to LibreOffice, not instead of it. In fact, I too prefer LibreOffice overall; what ONLYOFFICE offers is superior Microsoft Office format compatibility (supposedly because its native format(s) is/are Microsoft's proprietary format(s), and it therefore doesn't have to convert from Microsoft's format(s) to its own open one(s), like LibreOffice does), and, as can be seen on the Flathub page, ONLYOFFICE is also free as in freedom. (I should probably have said that last time. ;P)

Also, for what it's worth, in my case, using ONLYOFFICE on the cloud also allows me to have a free-as-in-money office suite that is more free as in freedom, has better compatibility with Microsoft Office and is less likely to spy on me than Google Docs (or Office 365!).

Quoting: s8as8a

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: s8as8aIf you don't need macro compatibility, perhaps you would also like ONLYOFFICE?

Maybe. Looking at those links, it seems potentially decent. But I like LibreOffice fairly well, and I have confidence that it will continue to exist and see updates, and it's open source--does ONLYOFFICE get me anything LibreOffice doesn't?

I meant to use it in addition to LibreOffice, not instead of it. In fact, I too prefer LibreOffice overall; what ONLYOFFICE offers is superior Microsoft Office format compatibility (supposedly because its native format(s) is/are Microsoft's proprietary format(s), and it therefore doesn't have to convert from Microsoft's format(s) to its own open one(s), like LibreOffice does), and, as can be seen on the Flathub page, ONLYOFFICE is also free as in freedom. (I should probably have said that last time. ;P)

Also, for what it's worth, in my case, using ONLYOFFICE on the cloud also allows me to have a free-as-in-money office suite that is more free as in freedom, has better compatibility with Microsoft Office and is less likely to spy on me than Google Docs (or Office 365!).

Interesting points. I might look into it, especially if I find myself wanting to do some cloudy-stuff.

All right, glad to have potentially helped. :)


Last edited by s8as8a on 3 August 2021 at 9:24 am UTC

Quoting: s8as8a

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: s8as8aIf you don't need macro compatibility, perhaps you would also like ONLYOFFICE?

Maybe. Looking at those links, it seems potentially decent. But I like LibreOffice fairly well, and I have confidence that it will continue to exist and see updates, and it's open source--does ONLYOFFICE get me anything LibreOffice doesn't?

I meant to use it in addition to LibreOffice, not instead of it. In fact, I too prefer LibreOffice overall; what ONLYOFFICE offers is superior Microsoft Office format compatibility (supposedly because its native format(s) is/are Microsoft's proprietary format(s), and it therefore doesn't have to convert from Microsoft's format(s) to its own open one(s), like LibreOffice does), and, as can be seen on the Flathub page, ONLYOFFICE is also free as in freedom. (I should probably have said that last time. ;P)

Also, for what it's worth, in my case, using ONLYOFFICE on the cloud also allows me to have a free-as-in-money office suite that is more free as in freedom, has better compatibility with Microsoft Office and is less likely to spy on me than Google Docs (or Office 365!).

I gave OnlyOffice a try. For basic office use it is fine and breaks Microsoft documents less than OpenOffice, but for my use it turned out too incomplete.

For instance, when editing Powerpoint slides some bullet point symbols would be encoded and decoded incorrectly, and there is no method for editing the slide master yet.

The equation editor has some weird bugs and omissions, that affect productivity worse than running Microsoft Office in a VM.

Overall it leaves the feeling of "why would I use this, when I already have an MS Office license?" At home I don't, and I don't need the extended features, so there I use LibreOffice and OnlyOffice. At work, I use OnlyOffice only as a viewer for MS Office documents, so I don't have to switch to the VM.

Quoting: Klaus

Quoting: s8as8a

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: s8as8aIf you don't need macro compatibility, perhaps you would also like ONLYOFFICE?

Maybe. Looking at those links, it seems potentially decent. But I like LibreOffice fairly well, and I have confidence that it will continue to exist and see updates, and it's open source--does ONLYOFFICE get me anything LibreOffice doesn't?

I meant to use it in addition to LibreOffice, not instead of it. In fact, I too prefer LibreOffice overall; what ONLYOFFICE offers is superior Microsoft Office format compatibility (supposedly because its native format(s) is/are Microsoft's proprietary format(s), and it therefore doesn't have to convert from Microsoft's format(s) to its own open one(s), like LibreOffice does), and, as can be seen on the Flathub page, ONLYOFFICE is also free as in freedom. (I should probably have said that last time. ;P)

Also, for what it's worth, in my case, using ONLYOFFICE on the cloud also allows me to have a free-as-in-money office suite that is more free as in freedom, has better compatibility with Microsoft Office and is less likely to spy on me than Google Docs (or Office 365!).

I gave OnlyOffice a try. For basic office use it is fine and breaks Microsoft documents less than OpenOffice, but for my use it turned out too incomplete.

For instance, when editing Powerpoint slides some bullet point symbols would be encoded and decoded incorrectly, and there is no method for editing the slide master yet.

The equation editor has some weird bugs and omissions, that affect productivity worse than running Microsoft Office in a VM.

Overall it leaves the feeling of "why would I use this, when I already have an MS Office license?" At home I don't, and I don't need the extended features, so there I use LibreOffice and OnlyOffice. At work, I use OnlyOffice only as a viewer for MS Office documents, so I don't have to switch to the VM.

Oh, thanks for your feedback. I'll likely mention your experience to anyone with whom I talk about ONLYOFFICE.

In my experience, it worked well with every file I used, even with documents that weren't properly imported by LibreOffice. Having said that, it occurs to me that I didn't do much editing with it, though, mostly just viewing.

P.S.
Sorry for the delay in my response.