Linux has finally hit that almost mythical 1% user share on Steam again

This is a fallacy, btw. If you're not into computers, you're only looking skin-deep. "This is the Internet, this is the app store, this is the update button" is all they need to know. Linux is the ideal grandmother OS. It's the Windows Power Users that have the hardest time; they're very familiar with the entrails of Windows and freak out about Linux' guts being different when they try to poke at them.

Yes, I think the people having most problems with Linux are the ones who think they know everything about computers, when in fact, they only know enough stuff to get around with Windows. And those are, how could you call it?, "offended" by Linux. "How can it be me, the super hacker, cannot easily do everything with Linux (without learning)?!? Linux is bad!" That's also where anti-Linux trolls are often coming from (like the one trolling for years, how's their name, Mercano or the like?).

Gnome out of the box is ugly and to make it useful you have to add plugins to it. The default should be a useable desktop without the user having to do anything.

yeah, but if you had actually read my post you'd notice I acknowledge that. IMO every single one of the major DEs on Linux are ugly. Gnome is a bit dysfunctional unless you're into very specific (and I'd argue for lot of workflows just not good) workflow with not so cool icons (even though they've improved and also Adwaita becomes bearable). KDE looks like someone puked rainbow on your screen, trying to make a windows clone with bad font choices and totally tangled settings and options. Xfce is like stepping back in time. I could go on.
But the thing is every single one can be made awesome. With Gnome you just install 2-3 extensions, tweak the same amount of settings (for example turn on extra window buttons) and install icon theme. With KDE you add a theme and spend quite a bit going through the settings then disable/tweak stuff that does not work so well (for example Kwallet or file search). And so on.
My belief is that most of the parts are there (or mostly there - like with sound system, where I had some hopes with Pipewire). They're just not put together well by default (maybe a bit better on Ubuntu) - maybe because we don't have much of actual frontend UI/UX designers on our platform. Or maybe there's no company that actually cares that will pay someone to do the tedious work nobody wants to do. I don't know.
But at least we could do it ourselves. No matter the DE - IMO most of them are awesome!

I can not, for the life of me understand people that like GNOME3. I was a Windows 7 user and when Win8 was announced decided to dual-boot and get used to Linux. I started with Ubuntu Mate (thank god someone decided to fork gtk2) because I loved the theme and taskbar/launcher at the time, then switched to Mint Mate because it was buggy (had memory leaks) until KDE Plasma became stable enough, then I switched to KDE Neon and later to Manjaro KDE. I never needed to tweak any of the Desktop settings or themes on any of them, just switch to Application Menu on KDE, my friends that are Windows users also liked the default themes of KDE and Mint Mate. The default theme is perfect.
I don't use KWallet and disable Search indexing, but I wouldn't call that "tweaking". It seems to me that you are a GNOME fanboy that's pushing your preferences on people that don't know better (Widnows users), which is really annoying because every distro out there is doing the same. It's like they don't understand why Linux Mint is so popular. Why would you want your desktop empty (no desktop icons) Why would you want your start menu to be fullscreen? Didn't you learn from Windows 8 that nobody wants that?
I was really disappointed when I first saw SteamOS with the GNOME DE. If I was first introduced to Linux by you or SteamOS, I would think "Linux looks horrendous" and never look at it again. Mint and KDE are not Windows clones. You may hate the taskbar and launcher of KDE because they reminds you of Windows, but there is a reason why all the OSes used to use the classic taskbar and launcher. It's like pushing a window manager like i3 because you think it's cool. I like i3 too, but I'm realistic enough to know that majority of people would hate it (I don't want to use those keybinding all the time either). Maybe it would be good idea to put it on university PCs that teach programming?
To me GNOME added features nobody asked for and removed the ones everyone loved and was used to because the developers thought it looked cool. Not caring what the users of the DE thought about it.
I used to think KDE4 looked bad. Since GTK3 was released GNOME has been getting uglier and uglier.
IMO the only reason GNOME became the primary DE over KDE5 was because of development resources. Now that KDE Plasma is stable and improving, things are changing.

End of rant.

What's annoying about Windows is mostly all the Xtra Proprietary-ness.

But you do realize that most of people do not care about that? We may, but most of the folks just want to get their job done.

Second, there are two main reasons musicians, graphic designers etc. use OS X. The first is that it has an excellent software ecosystem for that kind of people

yes - and its backed by the OS. For example - on OSX you basically connect an audio device and you have low latency audio out of the box.
On Windows you need to add some special drivers. Oh, and have you tried it on Linux? Yes, in theory it is doable but you need to fiddle with JACK and preferably custom kernel. I doubt most of musicians would go with that - not because they're not capable to learn it, but because fiddling with systems is not their job.
That's what I think when I say "we should do better". We should offer better OS tools that would grant user better experience when they're trying to get their job done.
Making the workflow / UI "similar" IMO should be just an afterthought.

And yes, that's just my opinion. But I try to base it on what I see. Look - OSX is popular among creatives as it offers good experience for them, even though it is different. Linux dominates server / supercomputer space - again because it offers better experience for folks that are into it, not because it is "similar". That's IMO the approach that brings folks on board.

Let's hope the ones crossing over do not come into contact with GNOME desktop first. Otherwise they might start to find windows 11 not so bad after all. ;-)

and that's debatable. My personal experience is that when I introduce some non-techie to Linux Gnome works best (with addad dock and some minor tweaks). Those were folks that actually kept using Linux.
With "techies" KDE is usually the best choice. Sucks with default settings but you can do almost anything with it.
IMO one of the issues with Linux desktop is by default every single DE sucks... even though every single one (among the major ones) is actually awesome.

When I had introduced GNOME and Unity to my friends and other people I know, nobody liked it they couldn't understand where the start menu was, didn't like the big icons of the start menu (thought it was meant for tablet). Most didn't even realize the OS had completely loaded.

What's annoying about Windows is mostly all the Xtra Proprietary-ness.

But you do realize that most of people do not care about that? We may, but most of the folks just want to get their job done.

Well, he was talking about what annoys people that are annoyed. Yes, some people dont' care.
But second, I don't think you'll find many people who are happy about what Purple listed (and you cut out)...

The way if you're not using Microsoft Edge as your browser (and who does?) it will keep on badgering you to start. The way it keeps popping up weird notifications that sound like something dire but if you think about it for a while is actually just them complaining that you set your settings not to hand over all your data. The other popups that are basically just incomprehensible and almost certainly irrelevant, but which sound like your computer is on fire or something.

It seems to me that you are a GNOME fanboy that's pushing your preferences on people that don't know better

OMG, how did you get that impression? Because I've said I think ALL de-s are actually amazing, including GNOME? Since when not hating something became fanboyism :D ?
I don't mind that you don't like GNOME - it is simply personal preference. I like it, but I also like KDE Plasma, Xfce, Cinammon etc. But I also see issues with every single one of those.

I don't use KWallet and disable Search indexing, but I wouldn't call that "tweaking".

ok, but think about regular folks - for them it is serious tweaking. They wouldn't know where to find those settings. They would just be hella annoyed by the constant KDE Wallet nags (which shouldn't be a thing if the wallet actually got properly opened by SDDM, other login managers actually can do it, no issues with PAM modules) and search not working.
Just open KDE settings and think about regular folks - do you think they'd enjoy those? Heck, I'm pretty familiar with them and still often forget where to look for the setting I want to change.
So even though I seriously think it is amazing what this amount settings brings to the table and I often install KDE on work machines I also see that the way it is exposed to the user can also be a potential problem.

In the end I don't care which DE "wins". Heck, I don't even look at it as some kind of competition. I'm glad we have choices and I like what those bring to the table.
What I care about is whether Linux offers better workflows and experience for "non-techies". And IMO we have all the means, almost all the parts are there, but it didn't happen.

(and you cut out).

not out of malice though :) . I just didn't think quoting huge block would change anything.
Look, I'd love people to get annoyed. Techies usually are. But I often work with people that are not into computers. And to my horror I often see them using Edge, or installing Chrome and simply ignoring those popups. They don't care.

constant KDE Wallet nags

I don't know what nags you're talking about. Among all the times I've installed a distro with KDE I've only gotten it once and then I put on a password and that was it. If you're constantly getting notification just uninstall it.

OMG, how did you get that impression? Because I've said I think ALL de-s are actually amazing, including GNOME? Since when not hating something became fanboyism :D ?
ok, but think about regular folks - for them it is serious tweaking. They wouldn't know where to find those settings.

You're the guy that's recommending GNOME for new people to Linux right? Or was I mistaken? Sorry if I was mistaken.

KDE looks like someone puked rainbow on your screen, trying to make a windows clone with bad font choices and totally tangled settings and options.

Where did you get that impression from? I like the default settings and so do most people.

With Gnome you just install 2-3 extensions, tweak the same amount of settings (for example turn on extra window buttons) and install icon theme.

You think it's easier to make GNOME look like KDE than vice versa? Which do you think is harder, removing KWallet or putting the classical start menu and taskbar on GNOME for a newbie? (I haven't used GNOME since 3 was first released so there are probably other things a Windows user and I will hate about the DE)

With Gnome you just install 2-3 extensions, tweak the same amount of settings (for example turn on extra window buttons) and install icon theme. With KDE you add a theme and spend quite a bit going through the settings then disable/tweak stuff that does not work so well

This is one of the biggest misconceptions the Linux community has that makes Linux very unfriendly to new users.
You think that it's easy for a newbie to search the whole internet (Linux wikis, forums etc.) for a command that will need to be put in the terminal to run something. And at the same time you think it's hard for anyone to find a button in System Settings or Launcher Menu.
It's the opposite! You even have a search bar to help you with finding things.
This is what annoyed me to no end when I first started using Linux. Every little thing needed a command. If there's a setting or GUI it's easy for me. I will find it and change it and I'll remember that the setting is there. But I can't remember every single command that is needed to change something that I may never use again. (That's why I have a txt file with all the commands I've ever needed to do in case I need them again)
And that's why Linux will always be unfriendly to newbies. The Linux community doesn't understand that simple fact and instead thinks too much settings are hard to remember.
>Oh NO! I need to remember where this setting in the interface is! That's too hard!
>If only I could install some packages, change some config files with root privileges and run some commands in the terminal after some googling.

This is a fallacy, btw. If you're not into computers, you're only looking skin-deep. "This is the Internet, this is the app store, this is the update button" is all they need to know. Linux is the ideal grandmother OS. It's the Windows Power Users that have the hardest time; they're very familiar with the entrails of Windows and freak out about Linux' guts being different when they try to poke at them.

Mm, you have a point, and I don't disagree that Linux can be the perfect "grandmother OS", but if that grandmother has been using Windows I imagine she'd be more comfortable with a DE that looks similar, skin-wise, and doesn't require re-learning where the links to all those things are.

This is one of the biggest misconceptions the Linux community has that makes Linux very unfriendly to new users.
You think that it's easy for a newbie to search the whole internet (Linux wikis, forums etc.) for a command that will need to be put in the terminal to run something. And at the same time you think it's hard for anyone to find a button in System Settings or Launcher Menu.
It's the opposite! You even have a search bar to help you with finding things.

That's the biggest misconception Linux newbies have when getting help with Linux. We're not giving you text commands because we consider it easier (well, most of us). It's because text commands are way more compatible across distributions, desktop environments and such. They are easy to tell and easy to just copy and paste. The results are as well easy to show.
All that way more than
* find out what DE they are using
* find out how the GUI there would be working
* tell them where and what to click
* tell them again where and what to click because they did it all wrong
* try to understand their description of what didn't work
* etc.
Instead:
* give command
* read result

Everything is fine with GUIs, everything is fine with showing newbies GUIs when you're sitting next to them. But GUIs don't work well over net internet.


Last edited by Eike on 3 August 2021 at 1:11 pm UTC

I really, really wish people would stop tearing down one thing in order to build up their personal preference for another thing.

By all means, sing the praises of the thing you love, but not at the expense of something else. ESPECIALLY when you know a lot of people already love that other thing. When you do this, all you do is look petty.

And that's why Linux will always be unfriendly to newbies. The Linux community doesn't understand that simple fact and instead thinks too much settings are hard to remember.

I think you're probably under-estimating the modern Linux experience. Perhaps you could share some examples of what commands you need to remember? For myself, I do have one pet peeve, which is that pulseaudio doesn't revert to a sane default sound card, so I have to tell it which one to use... which does indeed need a text file edit. But that's only because I use a pretty complex PC that has an insane number of sound ouputs (PC, monitor, Blue Yeti mic (headphones on a mic!), BT headphones, DualSense PS5 controller and my Index). Probably won't affect a lot of folk.

yes - and its backed by the OS. For example - on OSX you basically connect an audio device and you have low latency audio out of the box.
On Windows you need to add some special drivers. Oh, and have you tried it on Linux? Yes, in theory it is doable but you need to fiddle with JACK and preferably custom kernel. I doubt most of musicians would go with that - not because they're not capable to learn it, but because fiddling with systems is not their job.

Well, no, this isn't really true. Like you say, you should be backed the OS, right? So if you're a sound engineer or musician and want to use Linux, you make sure you install something like Ubuntu Studio, and then it just works out of the box. Sure, it would be nice if Linux was perfect for everything... but as we're discussing, no OS is perfect for everything. Far from it. But what's amazing is that Linux is shaping up to be the best candidate!

I used to say that I used Linux despite its various issues, so that I didn't have to use Windows. These days, Linux is a better choice (for me) in almost every aspect (okay, we still don't have anticheat, but hopefully that's coming now too!).

My experience right now is so far beyond what Windows or OSX could give me, I no longer have any realistic compromises to make. That's incredible, considering it's only been decade to get there.

What's annoying about Windows is mostly all the Xtra Proprietary-ness.

But you do realize that most of people do not care about that? We may, but most of the folks just want to get their job done.

Did you read my post beyond that point? I spent the next paragraphs itemizing all the annoyances in Windows, most of them flowing directly from the proprietary nature. People might not conceive of all the annoyances in Windows as coming from its proprietary nature, but they still experience them and find them annoying.

Second, there are two main reasons musicians, graphic designers etc. use OS X. The first is that it has an excellent software ecosystem for that kind of people

yes - and its backed by the OS. For example - on OSX you basically connect an audio device and you have low latency audio out of the box.
On Windows you need to add some special drivers. Oh, and have you tried it on Linux? Yes, in theory it is doable but you need to fiddle with JACK and preferably custom kernel. I doubt most of musicians would go with that - not because they're not capable to learn it, but because fiddling with systems is not their job.
That's what I think when I say "we should do better". We should offer better OS tools that would grant user better experience when they're trying to get their job done.

Sure, I'm perfectly willing to agree to that. So OK, rather than "two main reasons . . . neither of which is the UI" it's "three main reasons . . . none of which is the UI". But none of that has anything to do with Gnome vs Mate vs Windows UI vs Mac UI. You are arguing off to the side of my point.

At this point, are you arguing for a position or just quibbling for the sake of it?

You're the guy that's recommending GNOME for new people to Linux right?

It looks we're simply not reading each others posts or we're simply misunderstanding each other intentions.
I've been stating that nowadays I recommend Gnome for non-techies. For more advanced users KDE might be a good choice.
And that comes from the "success rate" after someone falling into "non-techie" asked me to install Linux for them. I've tried Mate, Xfce, KDE - and Gnome. So far Gnome proved to be least problematic for them (and for me as well, as for the most part I didn't have to follow up much with extra help later on).
I'm not saying it is perfect - again, no DE is.
So yeah, if you consider that I'm a fanboy because I tend to recommend a certain DE to very specific user group based on my experience then... well, call me a fanboy. I'm not offended - I'll keep using various DEs, will keep experimenting with different setups. It's not a personal thing for me, I'm not falling intro tribalism trap - and will keep enjoying good parts of every DE (but won't be blind for the shortcomings).

or putting the classical start menu and taskbar on GNOME for a newbie

the thing is - I don't do that. As you might have noticed I'm not into the whole "make it look like Windows" thing. I'm not trying to make it something it isn't.

install something like Ubuntu Studio, and then it just works out of the box

sadly when it comes to music apps it's not. You still have to deal with absolutely awful (frontend wise - I'm not judging the code / capabilities) JACK audio. Ir doesn't deliver experience that would be remotely on par.

Linux is a better choice (for me) in almost every aspect

and I'm not disputing that. In fact I totally agree - and the reason I'm using Linux as well. I'm just saying that while we have all the parts needed to make awesome system (and we do that ourselves) out of the box experience is lacking.
If you get past that the only (but sadly serious) issue is not directly OS related - lack of pro level consumer apps (for example nothing that in the CAD space, nothing that would replace Photoshop and so on).
One of the reason I'm rooting for all the initiatives that make it easier for folks to deploy apps on Linux and for distro-agnostic formats like Flatpaks.

Did you read my post beyond that point?

yes, I did. But as I've written later on my observation is that people don't care about that as much as they probably should.


Last edited by PJ on 3 August 2021 at 4:28 pm UTC

Linux is a better choice (for me) in almost every aspect

and I'm not disputing that. In fact I totally agree - and the reason I'm using Linux as well. I'm just saying that while we have all the parts needed to make awesome system (and we do that ourselves) out of the box experience is lacking.
If you get past that the only (but sadly serious) issue is not directly OS related - lack of pro level consumer apps (for example nothing that in the CAD space, nothing that would replace Photoshop and so on).
One of the reason I'm rooting for all the initiatives that make it easier for folks to deploy apps on Linux and for distro-agnostic formats like Flatpaks.

We'll have to disagree. Out of the box is pretty much how I configure the family's PCs and beyond my wife asking for some guidance on how to install Chrome (she laughed when I showed her how stupidly simple it is), it's been all quiet on that there western front. Yesterday my son asked me if he could install Steam again and buy Assassin's Creed Unity. I checked ProtonDB and told him it would be a risk, but I'd help him later. Went in about four hours later, he'd installed Steam, logged in, bought the game, downloaded it, created a uPlay account and was 20 minutes into the tutorial. He's not techy, at all.

Anecdotal evidence is the best kind of evidence, I suppose, but it's all I've got. It's all most people have, which probably explains all the varying positions in this thread.

I suppose it helps that Pop_OS has the Pop Shop to make most of these things click and play, and it definitely helps that Valve has created Steam Play so that Windows games are click and play, but there you go. Hopefully Linux gets to the point that everything is as click and play as Steam and the Pop Shop.

With Gnome you just install 2-3 extensions, tweak the same amount of settings (for example turn on extra window buttons) and install icon theme. With KDE you add a theme and spend quite a bit going through the settings then disable/tweak stuff that does not work so well

This is one of the biggest misconceptions the Linux community has that makes Linux very unfriendly to new users.
You think that it's easy for a newbie to search the whole internet (Linux wikis, forums etc.) for a command that will need to be put in the terminal to run something. And at the same time you think it's hard for anyone to find a button in System Settings or Launcher Menu.
It's the opposite! You even have a search bar to help you with finding things.
This is what annoyed me to no end when I first started using Linux. Every little thing needed a command. If there's a setting or GUI it's easy for me. I will find it and change it and I'll remember that the setting is there. But I can't remember every single command that is needed to change something that I may never use again. (That's why I have a txt file with all the commands I've ever needed to do in case I need them again)
And that's why Linux will always be unfriendly to newbies. The Linux community doesn't understand that simple fact and instead thinks too much settings are hard to remember.
>Oh NO! I need to remember where this setting in the interface is! That's too hard!
>If only I could install some packages, change some config files with root privileges and run some commands in the terminal after some googling.

I'll have to agree with this: coming from Windows, it is impressive that it seems you cannot do anything without having to use the terminal to get things done (when copy/pasting from the internet works right away, that is...).

[...]

yes - and its backed by the OS. For example - on OSX you basically connect an audio device and you have low latency audio out of the box.
On Windows you need to add some special drivers. Oh, and have you tried it on Linux? Yes, in theory it is doable but you need to fiddle with JACK and preferably custom kernel. I doubt most of musicians would go with that - not because they're not capable to learn it, but because fiddling with systems is not their job.

Well, no, this isn't really true. Like you say, you should be backed the OS, right? So if you're a sound engineer or musician and want to use Linux, you make sure you install something like Ubuntu Studio, and then it just works out of the box. [...]

No offense, but I have tried Ubuntu Studio, and it is nowhere near a good out-of-the-box experience... In fact that's probably one of the worst distro I tried, and if I didn't have tried others before (and thus know better about the Linux experience), I would probably have migrated to Windows 10 by now...
I have spent quite a lot of time trying to figure out how to tweak Jack and pulseaudio with Cadence, and even now, I am not fully satisfied with this "solution", which is more of a "workaround".
I wish there was a CoreAudio equivalent in Linux (to be fair, I wish it would have been the case in Windows, too). Maybe with Pipewire ?

This is a fallacy, btw. If you're not into computers, you're only looking skin-deep. "This is the Internet, this is the app store, this is the update button" is all they need to know. Linux is the ideal grandmother OS. It's the Windows Power Users that have the hardest time; they're very familiar with the entrails of Windows and freak out about Linux' guts being different when they try to poke at them.

Mm, you have a point, and I don't disagree that Linux can be the perfect "grandmother OS", but if that grandmother has been using Windows I imagine she'd be more comfortable with a DE that looks similar, skin-wise, and doesn't require re-learning where the links to all those things are.

Fun fact: my grandmother actually has been using OpenSuse for over a decade now I believe (and she's quite happy about it, except when the printer decides to stop working for no apparent reason )

EDIT:

[...]Hopefully Linux gets to the point that everything is as click and play as Steam and the Pop Shop.

I can only agree with that


Last edited by furaxhornyx on 3 August 2021 at 5:46 pm UTC

No offense, but I have tried Ubuntu Studio, and it is nowhere near a good out-of-the-box experience... In fact that's probably one of the worst distro I tried, and if I didn't have tried others before (and thus know better about the Linux experience), I would probably have migrated to Windows 10 by now...
I have spent quite a lot of time trying to figure out how to tweak Jack and pulseaudio with Cadence, and even now, I am not fully satisfied with this "solution", which is more of a "workaround".
I wish there was a CoreAudio equivalent in Linux (to be fair, I wish it would have been the case in Windows, too). Maybe with Pipewire ?

When did you last try? I ask because Jason Evanghelo thought the same back in 2019, but I think was quite positive about later versions? They lost a lot of developers between 2016 and 2018, which led to some serious stagnation.

As for CoreAudio, I have a musician friend who won't try Linux because of that very lack. Again, Evanghelo has found alternatives, but I think some of these professional niches are where Linux does hurt for the official packages associated with - Adobe stuff, AutoCAD, CoreAudio, and so on. At least Blender is leading the pack. And yeah, hopefully Pipewire continues to mature and becomes the default audio solution.

Did you read my post beyond that point?

yes, I did. But as I've written later on my observation is that people don't care about that as much as they probably should.

That's OK. They don't care about getting a different UI at all. Windows users don't want that. Nearly anyone considering switching from Windows is doing it because Microsoft is making it in some way difficult to continue using Windows, or they've had it up to here with some annoying thing Windows/Microsoft is doing--not because they don't like the basic traditional Windows UI.

Hence I don't see why you think it's so important to give Windows users something they don't want, rather than give them something like Windows without the pain-and-annoyance points.

No offense, but I have tried Ubuntu Studio, and it is nowhere near a good out-of-the-box experience... In fact that's probably one of the worst distro I tried, and if I didn't have tried others before (and thus know better about the Linux experience), I would probably have migrated to Windows 10 by now...
I have spent quite a lot of time trying to figure out how to tweak Jack and pulseaudio with Cadence, and even now, I am not fully satisfied with this "solution", which is more of a "workaround".
I wish there was a CoreAudio equivalent in Linux (to be fair, I wish it would have been the case in Windows, too). Maybe with Pipewire ?

When did you last try? I ask because Jason Evanghelo thought the same back in 2019, but I think was quite positive about later versions? They lost a lot of developers between 2016 and 2018, which led to some serious stagnation.

I don't remember precisely, but it was somewhere between last summer (2020) and beginning of the year. it was before I got my Ryzen, anyway.

Gnome out of the box is ugly and to make it useful you have to add plugins to it. The default should be a useable desktop without the user having to do anything.

Imagine if a Windows user had to add a taskbar themselves...

Say what you want about KDE but out of the box it is useful and a user doesn't have to do anything to it.

Indeed it was necessary to add a start menu taskbar in Windows 8