Psychonauts 2 releases to great reviews but the Linux support is delayed

Quoting: GuestMicrosoft is actually pretty good at documentation and developer help too. It's not really a problem for them to release something new and have developers pick it up - indeed, it's often a selling point. So it's not too difficult for them to introduce a Windows-only bit of middleware, or a subtle change to DirectX, and games no longer work through wine.

The middleware, sure. But it takes time for something like that to achieve market penetration and start turning up in actual finished games. During that time, people may well be able to get it working in Wine.
The subtle change in DirectX . . . how do they do it in such a way that games no longer work in Wine, but existing games still work on DirectX itself? And how long will it take for the DXVK people to introduce a fix? Too much of that kind of stuff, and pretty soon you'll find a bunch of games work under DXVK in Proton, but don't actually run on Windows any more.

The $80 CAD price tag for it was already pushing me away but there is absolutely zero chance I pay that for a Windows game.

Quoting: RaabenLike I said before, this is why I will not crowdfund or preorder. Another game promising Linux support turned eventually/maybe/probably quietly never.

I will crowdfund if they have a playable Linux demo and the price is $20 or less. At that point the trust is a little higher.

Quoting: GuestI'm not really concerned with it being worse for Microsoft, so much as not good for GNU/Linux.

It's a cause and effect situation, more people use Linux as their primary is directly "worse" to Microsoft than people using any other non-microsoft system, because at long term this decreases their market share. Not saying this is a threat for them, but it's worse than everyone stuck to windows like we have today.

Quoting: GuestMicrosoft is actually pretty good at documentation and developer help too. It's not really a problem for them to release something new and have developers pick it up - indeed, it's often a selling point. So it's not too difficult for them to introduce a Windows-only bit of middleware, or a subtle change to DirectX, and games no longer work through wine.

It is, if those said changes results in the software being unfamiliar with the older versions like I've said before. They can't limit proton inside their DX API because wine doesn't use any of it, and changing the calls only for the sake of breaking it would result in regressions with native DirectX games too. The same is correct if they release a more restrict api to replace DirectX, because developers would stick to what they already are comfortable to work unless this hypothetically new api could be also way better than what they are used to.

So the best and safer way they can boycott other systems is hide behind patent-protected tech like Media Foundation, and this is worse than relying on open source conversion layer like wine.

Quoting: Purple Library GuyThe question on this comes down to who can move faster.

That's the beauty of the current situation: They can't "move fast enough" like old days because there's more people making it work. Older games won't be updated to being incompatible with Proton, New gimmicks from video cards developers don't have a reason to stick only to Microsoft tech because they're independent companies (even if they have started windows only like RTX).

Quoting: Purple Library GuySince Proton and DXVK, it has been looking rather more like with more effort (and money) and more efficient approaches, chasing the taillights is pretty dashed viable, and the Wine/Proton/DXVK/stuff ecosystem can actually move faster than Microsoft can.

You're correct: The main key here is money and we can thank Valve for that. Without them gaming on linux would be in the sorrow state that was before.

Quoting: GuestIt will, however, slow innovation and adaptability in GNU/Linux gaming.

Interesting, which one of those of those are being jeopardized by Proton?

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: BielFPsSo the best and safer way they can boycott other systems is hide behind patent-protected tech like Media Foundation, and this is worse than relying on open source conversion layer like wine.

Microsoft doesn't really care for wine.

Microsoft cares for market share. So do I. If Wine gets us market share, or rather is a factor in getting us market share, everything else can follow. The Steam Deck makes this quite likely right now. On the other hand, if we don't get market share, GNU/Linux gaming and innovation in same won't be going anywhere much anyway.


Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 26 August 2021 at 7:14 pm UTC

Quoting: GuestGNU/Linux desktop has had virtual desktops for a very long time. I don't see many games taking advantage of that, or even trying to.

Now you made me curious! Got any ideas for this? Have any games used this?

Quoting: GuestOther than lacking of a more friendly and supported development environment on par with Visual Studio?

Not Proton's fault, for all the things against Microsoft I can have, I must recognize that Visual Studio / code is a very good ide.

Quoting: GuestLack of focus in areas that could keep games running across distros, kind of like containers

Like Proton?

Quoting: GuestLack of integration with desktop and features such as Twitch integration? (I like to shout out Hive Time here).

Inside the games you mean? Because OBS is already cross platform (amazing software btw).

Quoting: GuestHow about streaming from main server into the living room? If you think that's covered by Steam, think again.

I failed to see how Proton has impact on this one

Quoting: GuestSimple tweaks to drivers along the lines of what is seen from control panels available to Windows users? Sure, most of that is pretty crap, but ideas do come out of much of it.

I agreed 100% on this one, but this is a problem of lack of standards between Desktop Environments (Aka "linux freedom") where a lot of developers expect that user will have a previous knowledge in terminal usage and tweaking things. Unfortunately "good defaults" is a topic criminally underrated on linux, but still no related to proton.

Quoting: GuestGNU/Linux desktop has had virtual desktops for a very long time. I don't see many games taking advantage of that, or even trying to.

Probably because right now developers don't see the necessity of it (and I'm personally skeptical about performance on this one). If you're talking about the security factor, then It's better not to depend on game developers on it.

Quoting: GuestAnti-cheat mechanisms that don't rely upon kernel level access.

True, but I don't think this one has a solution. They either would need to have access to your kernel info, to "make sure" you're not running cheats (intrusive) or running server-side verification (more expensive to developers). A non-intrusive anticheat on linux could be easily bypassed.

Quoting: GuestWhat about experimental driver features, API extensions? OpenGL had that for years. Vulkan has continued that. Not available with DirectX.

Again I agreed with you, and those are topics that need to be easy to use and some marketing on it. OpenGL lost the battle with DX because of the lack of standards, and Vulkan is now better, but needs to become easy to develop with first (which is a work in progress fortunately). In fact Proton is a consequence of this problem, not the cause.

Quoting: GuestSparse texture volumes would never have existed without that, directly impacting games like Enemy Territory: Quake Wars, Rage, Rage 2, Doom 2016, Doom Eternal. Now granted they were all Windows games - but what would happen if you had a lot more people using OpenGL back then, and more using Vulkan now, on an OS where there are a whole heap more freedoms to experiment?

Bethesda games? lol
They're the perfect example of how even with the tech available, the company can simply choose to not support linux because of the lack of Market share. I think they're most likely to sabotage linux games than Microsoft (like they did putting Media Foundation on Skyrim SE).

Quoting: GuestBut no, apparently that's all insignificant and "Proton" is the way forward, just do whatever Microsoft dictate. That should get you started on something to think about.

Proton is a consequence to Microsoft dominance, I agreed native technology will always be better but Proton is better than nothing (which was what linux had before in the game subject).

My point is people where not developing games for linux before (except for the Steam machines train hype that derailed), and still would not because of the lack of market share. More important that technology and money, Linux need more users and Proton is helping with that.

Quoting: GuestGoing off topic, for which I apologise, but I figure this is interesting anyway!
[...snipped long and highly readable pos...]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing! Some real outside the box thinking, or perhaps outside the window?

I would actually love something like this for a game like OpenTTD. Real windows for all those little boxes of statistics and whatnots on a second monitor or workspace.

Quoting: GuestIncorrect. Games were developed, though not as profitable I'll grant.

If you're talking about open source games, while they're awesome as pet projects they can't be compared to mainstream hits. Money is necessary to make those games popular, by marketing it or by making developers dedicate to improve it.

Quoting: GuestMore users alone gives you nothing if those users are still tied to whatever Microsoft dictate. That's what "Proton" is. Developers are not being encouraged to develop for GNU/Linux, quite the opposite, and that is the point. Everything I wrote above would see more attention with more native development. Something Valve, through "Proton", and directly said from them, is actively discouraging.

More users alone creates a market share to be explored. The reason you see more investment in an inferior platform like android/ios instead of desktop Linux is pure because of the quantity of users. The main reason Microsoft can "dictate" anything outside the company is because of their market share (the same reason Nvidia can jeopardize Wayland). So yes, more users is essential.

The worst thing that can happen if Linux has only technology without users is other platforms leeching their work and making people use it elsewhere, without contributing with anything like Sony does with BSD.


Last edited by BielFPs on 26 August 2021 at 9:14 pm UTC