APT 2.3.12 package manager released, will no longer let you break everything

I can almost hear minds whirring away, thinking, "Challenge Accepted!"

I can almost hear minds whirring away, thinking, "Challenge Accepted!"

Considering the original issue from a youtuber was following commands found online, this change won't solve anything. People will just read something from an old stackoverflow thread, or ubuntu forums, or somesuch, and blindly follow that while ignoring the massive neon warning signs that it could break the system.

Well the point is that it's one step harder to break now. While yes, someone will go and find the new command to do it, APT won't tell you it and the actual command name speaks for itself...

Way way way way over due IMO. It won't stop people, but it will hopefully slow them down

I can almost hear minds whirring away, thinking, "Challenge Accepted!"

Considering the original issue from a youtuber was following commands found online, this change won't solve anything. People will just read something from an old stackoverflow thread, or ubuntu forums, or somesuch, and blindly follow that while ignoring the massive neon warning signs that it could break the system.

I half agree with this. Those neon warning signs are there, but the user may be colorblind to exactly what those warnings implied. The other issue that Linus faced, as I understand the situation, was that Pop_OS! actually had a broken Steam package at the time. So, a combination of a brand new Linux user with little (if any) familiarity with the terminology of the OS and it's numerous package distribution systems combined with an admittedly broken package that ultimately caused the warning in the first place, how was the guy even supposed to think that the simple act of installing an application could trigger the removal of his XOrg system, even with an error (that is otherwise alien to him) sitting there?

On the flip side, Linus has been heavily in the tech industry for years. Granted, he's predominantly Windows focused, but he should be well versed enough in the quirks of computers in general to know that, unless you're familiar with a particular situation, you don't just blindly ignore warnings. I get that this whole challenge is them trying to work with Linux like an Average(tm) gamer, but Linus is not. He's got more IT qualifications than an average gamer and the fact he nuked his system kinda makes me feel like he almost intentionally played dumb in this particular situation. I don't actually think he did, but he definitely came off looking like a sloppy IT professional to me in that moment.

i wonder what popos devs are thinking right now. they could have had all the attention from LTT, but instead manjaro gets it now because of some bug

btw when do they release part 2 ?

Something that might help all distributions of Linux might be a central site where users can post their Linux tutorials, organized by Distribution, Distro Version, Topic, and Date. This way, when a user comes to the site looking for a tutorial, they should always get the most recent and relevant information up front. The site could also put up a warning at the top of the site if the tutorial being viewed is for an older distribution version, or if it hasn't been updated in some specified amount of time (like "Warning, tutorial is over 6 months old and may be out of date"). The site could also implement a rating system for how successful users have been using the tutorial.

I'm just spitballing. Honestly, though, there definitely is an issue with so many disparate tutorials out there from as far back as a decade or more, and, unless you pay close attention to distro version or date information that may, or may not be in the tutorial (depending on the whims of the author) you can easily have a newbie find an Ubuntu tutorial from 5 or 10 years ago, not realize its age, and be completely lost.

I can almost hear minds whirring away, thinking, "Challenge Accepted!"

Considering the original issue from a youtuber was following commands found online, this change won't solve anything. People will just read something from an old stackoverflow thread, or ubuntu forums, or somesuch, and blindly follow that while ignoring the massive neon warning signs that it could break the system.

I half agree with this. Those neon warning signs are there, but the user may be colorblind to exactly what those warnings implied. The other issue that Linus faced, as I understand the situation, was that Pop_OS! actually had a broken Steam package at the time. So, a combination of a brand new Linux user with little (if any) familiarity with the terminology of the OS and it's numerous package distribution systems combined with an admittedly broken package that ultimately caused the warning in the first place, how was the guy even supposed to think that the simple act of installing an application could trigger the removal of his XOrg system, even with an error (that is otherwise alien to him) sitting there?

On the flip side, Linus has been heavily in the tech industry for years. Granted, he's predominantly Windows focused, but he should be well versed enough in the quirks of computers in general to know that, unless you're familiar with a particular situation, you don't just blindly ignore warnings. I get that this whole challenge is them trying to work with Linux like an Average(tm) gamer, but Linus is not. He's got more IT qualifications than an average gamer and the fact he nuked his system kinda makes me feel like he almost intentionally played dumb in this particular situation. I don't actually think he did, but he definitely came off looking like a sloppy IT professional to me in that moment.

He literally tried a command on a page, it gave him a big ol' warning that essential packages were going to be removed. He typed in the 'Yes I know what I'm doing' even though he clearly did not, and nuked Xorg while it was running. Not sure how that is any fault of apt. But I do find it amusing that I saw the changelog for this change last night as I updated my laptop. Gave me a chuckle.

But on the other side of this; Linus has 14 million subscribers. And people are interested in how this pans out for him. If he can somehow stick with Linux longer than the month that the challenge is for, it could potentially get a nice new chunk of users wanting to switch to Linux for their gaming / desktop usage.

Something that might help all distributions of Linux might be a central site where users can post their Linux tutorials, organized by Distribution, Distro Version, Topic, and Date. This way, when a user comes to the site looking for a tutorial, they should always get the most recent and relevant information up front. The site could also put up a warning at the top of the site if the tutorial being viewed is for an older distribution version, or if it hasn't been updated in some specified amount of time (like "Warning, tutorial is over 6 months old and may be out of date"). The site could also implement a rating system for how successful users have been using the tutorial.

I'm just spitballing. Honestly, though, there definitely is an issue with so many disparate tutorials out there from as far back as a decade or more, and, unless you pay close attention to distro version or date information that may, or may not be in the tutorial (depending on the whims of the author) you can easily have a newbie find an Ubuntu tutorial from 5 or 10 years ago, not realize its age, and be completely lost.

I mean I think every distribution should have the level of Wiki that Arch has. If there is one thing they excel at over any other distributions (with the exception of maybe FreeBSD), is their documentation. It's very thorough, and all in one nice place.

I consider catering to users who intentionally ignore critical warnings a step in the wrong direction.

I'm not trying to be elitist, but seriously, if there's a very clearly worded meessage telling the user that they are going to break their system, it's the user's fault if they type in "do as I say"...

Those neon warning signs are there,

I think part of the problem was that there was no neon warning signs. The only warnings Linus got was an error from popshop that wasn't clear on what was happening... and a giant wall of text from apt.

I would've added an extra message to make things clear, like:
I'm afraid I can't do this, Linus.

He typed in the 'Yes I know what I'm doing' even though he clearly did not, and nuked Xorg while it was running. Not sure how that is any fault of apt.

He typed "yes, do as I say"... and the warning was hidden in a huge wall of text. It is absolutely apt's fault.

He typed in the 'Yes I know what I'm doing' even though he clearly did not, and nuked Xorg while it was running. Not sure how that is any fault of apt.

He typed "yes, do as I say"... and the warning was hidden in a huge wall of text. It is absolutely apt's fault.

It was quite literally the line above telling him what to type. It wasn't hidden at all.

There's a screenshot of the error (From this very site)... It's one line in among a lot of white text that says you shouldn't do this. It is essentially hidden, and Linus is not to blame for this badly designed warning.

He literally tried a command on a page, it gave him a big ol' warning that essential packages were going to be removed. He typed in the 'Yes I know what I'm doing' even though he clearly did not, and nuked Xorg while it was running. Not sure how that is any fault of apt. But I do find it amusing that I saw the changelog for this change last night as I updated my laptop. Gave me a chuckle.

The fault is definitely with APT, IMO.

It spews out loads of information, all cramped together at once and then mentions you can enter a command. It's really not user friendly, not that the CLI is overly friendly to begin with. I see this is a real positive change.

Not aimed at anybody, but... Some sayings we have in mechanical engineering, when it comes to the risks of "over engineering":

"Make it idiot proof and somebody will make a better idiot."

Still, this patch is a good thing, imo.

Those neon warning signs are there,

I think part of the problem was that there was no neon warning signs. The only warnings Linus got was an error from popshop that wasn't clear on what was happening... and a giant wall of text from apt.

That 'wall of text' ends with "you are about to remove essential packages, type exactly, 'Yes, I know what I'm doing' to continue."

Which is more than enough to say 'stop, you're about to do something horrendous to your system.' I have made many jokes before about not being able to do flashing red text in Confluence because of people not following the wiki... But really there are two things to blame here. 1) Linus being smart enough to be dangerous. 2) Linus not being patient enough to read the warning.

I'll refute your argument: he easily saw the line saying what to type in, and by your reasoning that was hidden too.

Linus is to blame for ignoring the warnings. They are now making it more difficult to ignore the warnings, but that doesn't change that he decided to ignore them in the first place.

The line telling him what to type was at the bottom. The warning is in the middle of the screen, blending in.

You and I might read everything a program like apt spits out, but you cannot expect that of a normal user. And Linus, while he did know a little, he was essentially a newbie user to our ecosystem.

What I think should be done is that warning line should be a different colour... and separated with a blank line either side of the warning. Draw attention to the "you will break your system" warning.

2) Linus not being patient enough to read the warning.

Most newbie users aren't that patient, especially when it comes to walls of text.

The point is that apt should not have allowed him to break his system in the first place. That should not have happened, and the fault is 10% on that Steam package... and 90% on apt.

I wrote in the other article comments how I feel about this and just have to say again that this is stupid.

Linus pulled the pin out of a hand grenade despite warnings about dangerous consequences, then stared at it until it exploded... and now we all have to be "protected" against ourselves regardless.
Changing the prompt is irrelevant, making the text more legible is irrelevant, adding more stumbling blocks is - you guessed it - irrelevant. People will always find ways around any barriers in place. If you don't think they will, then I wonder if you have ever even met a human? We are insane.

What will be the next knee-jerk overreaction to his or another Techtuber borking things?
Why not remove sudo because that seems very dangerous! People can do anything! Or maybe delete the root account entirely, that user has too much power! Super dangerous!!

Also, can we please stop with the nonsensical argument that Linus Sebastian can actually represent an average user.

This is stupid.

in my case stay avalaible in updates with xubuntu 22.04 lts