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PayPalLooks like Canonical, the creator of Ubuntu, want to get in on more Linux Gaming with their Desktop Product Manager starting a new series of blog posts and your feedback is needed.
The first blog post goes over using Steam and Proton, which won't be news to any of our readers, especially with our full guide existing for some time now. What's interesting though, that I had no idea, is that their Desktop Product Manager is Oliver Smith, who previously worked for Creative Assembly as a Producer on the likes of Alien Isolation - which got ported natively to Linux by Feral Interactive.
As for the actual guide, it's a pretty good intro for those who need to point newer users to get setup ready with Steam and try out Proton.
Pictured - Steam on Ubuntu
At the end of it, Smith mentions how "we don’t want to get complacent, we know there is still a lot more we can do to improve the gaming experience on Ubuntu Desktop" and that Canonical is "keen to hear from you on the issues or areas we should focus on in 2022". A post on their official Discourse Forum has been opened to gather feedback.
The first reply on it already jumps right into thing Ubuntu should look to sort, like making Mesa upgrades easier so people don't need to resort to PPAs for new graphics drivers on AMD/Intel, which is often needed to keep up with newer game releases and new Proton releases.
Hopefully this will be the start of Ubuntu making more progress to make gaming great on Ubuntu, and easier overall.
Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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slaapliedje Nov 29, 2021
Quoting: AnzaDebian Sid is basically a rolling release. There is usually a bit of a hiccup during the freeze of testing, but it isn't very long. But there is also a period of 'unrest' right after a new stable version is released. This is due to a ton of new packages and version bumps that flood into Sid. Historically there can be pretty nasty breakages during this point. But as long as you use upgrade, and not dist-upgrade, it is fine.Quoting: RedfaceNah, that is Debian, the Ubuntu development version, currently Jammy Jellyfish to be released as 20.04, does come close to a rolling release, but its like Debian testing and unstable affected by freezes, so its not really rolling, but close.
You can also use devel instead of the codename, devel is kind of a symlink to the current development repositories.
At least according to documentation, Debian unstable (aka. sid) is not subject to freezes. Testing is subject to freezes, so rolling stops for a while (shouldn't called testing rolling release as because of that it's not really one).
However as mentioned, there are other distributions out there that do rolling releases. Those are quickest way to fix the problem instead of waiting Canonical to implement true rolling release. Debian is the most familiar for Ubuntu users, Arch is doing bit of its own thing with AUR and all (which is not bad thing at all).
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Quoting: AnzaQuoting: RedfaceNah, that is Debian, the Ubuntu development version, currently Jammy Jellyfish to be released as 20.04, does come close to a rolling release, but its like Debian testing and unstable affected by freezes, so its not really rolling, but close.
You can also use devel instead of the codename, devel is kind of a symlink to the current development repositories.
At least according to documentation, Debian unstable (aka. sid) is not subject to freezes. Testing is subject to freezes, so rolling stops for a while (shouldn't called testing rolling release as because of that it's not really one).
However as mentioned, there are other distributions out there that do rolling releases. Those are quickest way to fix the problem instead of waiting Canonical to implement true rolling release. Debian is the most familiar for Ubuntu users, Arch is doing bit of its own thing with AUR and all (which is not bad thing at all).
See https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2021/06/msg00000.html for the full freeze announcement of Buster which links to https://release.debian.org/bullseye/freeze_policy.html#full
QuoteNo changes in unstable that are not targeted for bullseye
Don't upload changes to unstable that are not targeted for bullseye. Having changes in unstable that are not targeted/appropriate for bullseye could complicate fixes for your package and related packages (like dependencies and reverse dependencies).
That means while sid/unstable is not technically frozen there are almost no newer versions during that time, mostly bugfixes, and newer versions only as exception.
I can tell from experience that running sid is very similar running the Ubuntu development version.
And since Ubuntu is closer to Ubuntu than Debian or Arch then Ubuntu development is the closest to a rolling release Ubuntu.
Instead of release upgrading to the next development release which opens days after the release of the current one, you also can change your repositories to use devel instead of the codename, either manually or with the https://github.com/wimpysworld/rolling-rhino script.
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Quoting: slaapliedjeQuoting: AnzaDebian Sid is basically a rolling release. There is usually a bit of a hiccup during the freeze of testing, but it isn't very long. But there is also a period of 'unrest' right after a new stable version is released. This is due to a ton of new packages and version bumps that flood into Sid. Historically there can be pretty nasty breakages during this point. But as long as you use upgrade, and not dist-upgrade, it is fine.Quoting: RedfaceNah, that is Debian, the Ubuntu development version, currently Jammy Jellyfish to be released as 20.04, does come close to a rolling release, but its like Debian testing and unstable affected by freezes, so its not really rolling, but close.
You can also use devel instead of the codename, devel is kind of a symlink to the current development repositories.
At least according to documentation, Debian unstable (aka. sid) is not subject to freezes. Testing is subject to freezes, so rolling stops for a while (shouldn't called testing rolling release as because of that it's not really one).
However as mentioned, there are other distributions out there that do rolling releases. Those are quickest way to fix the problem instead of waiting Canonical to implement true rolling release. Debian is the most familiar for Ubuntu users, Arch is doing bit of its own thing with AUR and all (which is not bad thing at all).
Yeah, and from a user standpoint its the same when running the Ubuntu development release and then after release immediately going to the next, or by tracking devel in the first place.
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Quoting: RedfaceSee https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2021/06/msg00000.html for the full freeze announcement of Buster which links to https://release.debian.org/bullseye/freeze_policy.html#full
QuoteNo changes in unstable that are not targeted for bullseye
Don't upload changes to unstable that are not targeted for bullseye. Having changes in unstable that are not targeted/appropriate for bullseye could complicate fixes for your package and related packages (like dependencies and reverse dependencies).
That means while sid/unstable is not technically frozen there are almost no newer versions during that time, mostly bugfixes, and newer versions only as exception.
I was reading the same document earlier and missed that part. So Debian testing and unstable are more of a rolling release with hiccups about every two years or so.
2 Likes, Who?
slaapliedje Dec 1, 2021
Quoting: AnzaBasically. Every 6 months, Ubuntu snags a snapshot from Debian and tweaks the stuff and tries to stabilize it and then does a release.Quoting: RedfaceSee https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2021/06/msg00000.html for the full freeze announcement of Buster which links to https://release.debian.org/bullseye/freeze_policy.html#full
QuoteNo changes in unstable that are not targeted for bullseye
Don't upload changes to unstable that are not targeted for bullseye. Having changes in unstable that are not targeted/appropriate for bullseye could complicate fixes for your package and related packages (like dependencies and reverse dependencies).
That means while sid/unstable is not technically frozen there are almost no newer versions during that time, mostly bugfixes, and newer versions only as exception.
I was reading the same document earlier and missed that part. So Debian testing and unstable are more of a rolling release with hiccups about every two years or so.
I just stick with Debian Sid as everytime I have strayed, I have not been happy. Unless I require stable (like on servers) then I stick to the Stable branch of Debian.
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slaapliedje Dec 1, 2021
Quoting: RedfaceExcept that Ubuntu now wants you to use snaps instead of .debs.Quoting: slaapliedjeQuoting: AnzaDebian Sid is basically a rolling release. There is usually a bit of a hiccup during the freeze of testing, but it isn't very long. But there is also a period of 'unrest' right after a new stable version is released. This is due to a ton of new packages and version bumps that flood into Sid. Historically there can be pretty nasty breakages during this point. But as long as you use upgrade, and not dist-upgrade, it is fine.Quoting: RedfaceNah, that is Debian, the Ubuntu development version, currently Jammy Jellyfish to be released as 20.04, does come close to a rolling release, but its like Debian testing and unstable affected by freezes, so its not really rolling, but close.
You can also use devel instead of the codename, devel is kind of a symlink to the current development repositories.
At least according to documentation, Debian unstable (aka. sid) is not subject to freezes. Testing is subject to freezes, so rolling stops for a while (shouldn't called testing rolling release as because of that it's not really one).
However as mentioned, there are other distributions out there that do rolling releases. Those are quickest way to fix the problem instead of waiting Canonical to implement true rolling release. Debian is the most familiar for Ubuntu users, Arch is doing bit of its own thing with AUR and all (which is not bad thing at all).
Yeah, and from a user standpoint its the same when running the Ubuntu development release and then after release immediately going to the next, or by tracking devel in the first place.
0 Likes
Quoting: slaapliedjeThis is just as wrong as: About every 2 years Debian snags a snapshot from sidQuoting: AnzaBasically. Every 6 months, Ubuntu snags a snapshot from Debian and tweaks the stuff and tries to stabilize it and then does a release.Quoting: RedfaceSee https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2021/06/msg00000.html for the full freeze announcement of Buster which links to https://release.debian.org/bullseye/freeze_policy.html#full
QuoteNo changes in unstable that are not targeted for bullseye
Don't upload changes to unstable that are not targeted for bullseye. Having changes in unstable that are not targeted/appropriate for bullseye could complicate fixes for your package and related packages (like dependencies and reverse dependencies).
That means while sid/unstable is not technically frozen there are almost no newer versions during that time, mostly bugfixes, and newer versions only as exception.
I was reading the same document earlier and missed that part. So Debian testing and unstable are more of a rolling release with hiccups about every two years or so.
A snapshot is a moment in time, not a continuous flow of packages from sid to testing in Debian case, or a continuous flow of packages from sid (and sometimes experimental when sid is to old, like during a testing freeze) to Ubuntu development repositories.
We already had this discussion earlier in https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2021/08/debian-11-qbullseyeq-is-officially-out-now/comment_id=209308 where you had a lot of misunderstandings about Ubuntu where I explained with documentation how it is actually. Including that the automatic flow of packages from sid to Ubuntu devel is something that is turned on and off depending on the development schedule.
You just switched topic to something else inaccurate, until you suggested that a computer automation is something that just is, and can not be turned off by humans, like if computers where power by magic and fairies instead of mathematics and physics: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2021/08/debian-11-qbullseyeq-is-officially-out-now/comment_id=209696
QuoteUhm... pretty sure it isn't a choice at the moment, it's literally automated.
I just gave up on feeding the troll at that part.
Quoting: slaapliedjeI just stick with Debian Sid as everytime I have strayed, I have not been happy. Unless I require stable (like on servers) then I stick to the Stable branch of Debian.
That is great, use what ever works and you like the most. But why do you have the urge to spread misinformation about other distributions?
Quoting: slaapliedjExcept that Ubuntu now wants you to use snaps instead of .debs.A few packages are only available as snap and not deb anymore where they where available as deb before.
For 22.04 this will from what we know now be Ubuntu Software and Firefox from packages installed as default, and some more optional where Chromium is probably the most well known example.
But you make it sound like it goes for all packages. There are only the 2 mentioned snaps installed as enduser applications, and they pull in some dependencies like core20 for the core libraries and gnome libraries and gtk-themes, so under 10 snaps over all. And around 1800 deb packages installed, which is that high because many projects are packaged in a way that the source package builds a lot of binary packages.
So all around its like 99.5% of packages installed from a default desktop are deb, and 0.5% are snaps, if you count all the dependency packages as well.
But yeah, Ubuntu is all about snaps now:-) Furthermore you can still just remove all snaps and find alternatives elsewhere.
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slaapliedje Dec 4, 2021
Quoting: RedfaceNone of what you showed shows it is any different to what I said except different words. They still get their base debs built because of Debian. I have known about Ubuntu before it was even released. What I said is exactly how they used to do it, and from everything I have seen, it has not changed.Quoting: slaapliedjeThis is just as wrong as: About every 2 years Debian snags a snapshot from sidQuoting: AnzaBasically. Every 6 months, Ubuntu snags a snapshot from Debian and tweaks the stuff and tries to stabilize it and then does a release.Quoting: RedfaceSee https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2021/06/msg00000.html for the full freeze announcement of Buster which links to https://release.debian.org/bullseye/freeze_policy.html#full
QuoteNo changes in unstable that are not targeted for bullseye
Don't upload changes to unstable that are not targeted for bullseye. Having changes in unstable that are not targeted/appropriate for bullseye could complicate fixes for your package and related packages (like dependencies and reverse dependencies).
That means while sid/unstable is not technically frozen there are almost no newer versions during that time, mostly bugfixes, and newer versions only as exception.
I was reading the same document earlier and missed that part. So Debian testing and unstable are more of a rolling release with hiccups about every two years or so.and tweaks the stuffand tries to stabilize it and then does a release.
A snapshot is a moment in time, not a continuous flow of packages from sid to testing in Debian case, or a continuous flow of packages from sid (and sometimes experimental when sid is to old, like during a testing freeze) to Ubuntu development repositories.
We already had this discussion earlier in https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2021/08/debian-11-qbullseyeq-is-officially-out-now/comment_id=209308 where you had a lot of misunderstandings about Ubuntu where I explained with documentation how it is actually. Including that the automatic flow of packages from sid to Ubuntu devel is something that is turned on and off depending on the development schedule.
You just switched topic to something else inaccurate, until you suggested that a computer automation is something that just is, and can not be turned off by humans, like if computers where power by magic and fairies instead of mathematics and physics: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2021/08/debian-11-qbullseyeq-is-officially-out-now/comment_id=209696QuoteUhm... pretty sure it isn't a choice at the moment, it's literally automated.
I just gave up on feeding the troll at that part.
Quoting: slaapliedjeI just stick with Debian Sid as everytime I have strayed, I have not been happy. Unless I require stable (like on servers) then I stick to the Stable branch of Debian.
That is great, use what ever works and you like the most. But why do you have the urge to spread misinformation about other distributions?
Quoting: slaapliedjExcept that Ubuntu now wants you to use snaps instead of .debs.A few packages are only available as snap and not deb anymore where they where available as deb before.
For 22.04 this will from what we know now be Ubuntu Software and Firefox from packages installed as default, and some more optional where Chromium is probably the most well known example.
But you make it sound like it goes for all packages. There are only the 2 mentioned snaps installed as enduser applications, and they pull in some dependencies like core20 for the core libraries and gnome libraries and gtk-themes, so under 10 snaps over all. And around 1800 deb packages installed, which is that high because many projects are packaged in a way that the source package builds a lot of binary packages.
So all around its like 99.5% of packages installed from a default desktop are deb, and 0.5% are snaps, if you count all the dependency packages as well.
But yeah, Ubuntu is all about snaps now:-) Furthermore you can still just remove all snaps and find alternatives elsewhere.
I am not trolling at all, you somehow interpret things differently than I do.
Debian doesn't take a snapshot for development.. they roll in Sid and if a package doesn't have a reported bug in 10 days, it gets shifted to Testing (assuming dependencies are still working). Then before release they do a soft freeze, and try to eliminate bugs, while holding back new versions unless exceptions are made.
Then they will do a hard freeze where it is bug crunch time. But they release when ready (isn't even a full 2 years always).
Ububtu is only remotely stable due to the greatness of Debian.
When Ubuntu is modifying apt to install Chromium via snap... they are wanting people to use snaps. Can't really argue against that... if they had the man power, I bet all of it but the core would be a snap package. The other 95% of packages are basically built by debian maintainers.
Last edited by slaapliedje on 4 December 2021 at 5:19 pm UTC
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Quoting: slaapliedjeQuoting: RedfaceNone of what you showed shows it is any different to what I said except different words. They still get their base debs built because of Debian. I have known about Ubuntu before it was even released. What I said is exactly how they used to do it, and from everything I have seen, it has not changed.Quoting: slaapliedjeThis is just as wrong as: About every 2 years Debian snags a snapshot from sidQuoting: AnzaBasically. Every 6 months, Ubuntu snags a snapshot from Debian and tweaks the stuff and tries to stabilize it and then does a release.Quoting: RedfaceSee https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2021/06/msg00000.html for the full freeze announcement of Buster which links to https://release.debian.org/bullseye/freeze_policy.html#full
QuoteNo changes in unstable that are not targeted for bullseye
Don't upload changes to unstable that are not targeted for bullseye. Having changes in unstable that are not targeted/appropriate for bullseye could complicate fixes for your package and related packages (like dependencies and reverse dependencies).
That means while sid/unstable is not technically frozen there are almost no newer versions during that time, mostly bugfixes, and newer versions only as exception.
I was reading the same document earlier and missed that part. So Debian testing and unstable are more of a rolling release with hiccups about every two years or so.and tweaks the stuffand tries to stabilize it and then does a release.
A snapshot is a moment in time, not a continuous flow of packages from sid to testing in Debian case, or a continuous flow of packages from sid (and sometimes experimental when sid is to old, like during a testing freeze) to Ubuntu development repositories.
We already had this discussion earlier in https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2021/08/debian-11-qbullseyeq-is-officially-out-now/comment_id=209308 where you had a lot of misunderstandings about Ubuntu where I explained with documentation how it is actually. Including that the automatic flow of packages from sid to Ubuntu devel is something that is turned on and off depending on the development schedule.
You just switched topic to something else inaccurate, until you suggested that a computer automation is something that just is, and can not be turned off by humans, like if computers where power by magic and fairies instead of mathematics and physics: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2021/08/debian-11-qbullseyeq-is-officially-out-now/comment_id=209696QuoteUhm... pretty sure it isn't a choice at the moment, it's literally automated.
I just gave up on feeding the troll at that part.
Quoting: slaapliedjeI just stick with Debian Sid as everytime I have strayed, I have not been happy. Unless I require stable (like on servers) then I stick to the Stable branch of Debian.
That is great, use what ever works and you like the most. But why do you have the urge to spread misinformation about other distributions?
Quoting: slaapliedjExcept that Ubuntu now wants you to use snaps instead of .debs.A few packages are only available as snap and not deb anymore where they where available as deb before.
For 22.04 this will from what we know now be Ubuntu Software and Firefox from packages installed as default, and some more optional where Chromium is probably the most well known example.
But you make it sound like it goes for all packages. There are only the 2 mentioned snaps installed as enduser applications, and they pull in some dependencies like core20 for the core libraries and gnome libraries and gtk-themes, so under 10 snaps over all. And around 1800 deb packages installed, which is that high because many projects are packaged in a way that the source package builds a lot of binary packages.
So all around its like 99.5% of packages installed from a default desktop are deb, and 0.5% are snaps, if you count all the dependency packages as well.
But yeah, Ubuntu is all about snaps now:-) Furthermore you can still just remove all snaps and find alternatives elsewhere.
I am not trolling at all, you somehow interpret things differently than I do.
Debian doesn't take a snapshot for development.. they roll in Sid and if a package doesn't have a reported bug in 10 days, it gets shifted to Testing (assuming dependencies are still working). Then before release they do a soft freeze, and try to eliminate bugs, while holding back new versions unless exceptions are made.
Then they will do a hard freeze where it is bug crunch time. But they release when ready (isn't even a full 2 years always).
Ububtu is only remotely stable due to the greatness of Debian.
When Ubuntu is modifying apt to install Chromium via snap... they are wanting people to use snaps. Can't really argue against that... if they had the man power, I bet all of it but the core would be a snap package. The other 95% of packages are basically built by debian maintainers.
Ubuntu does after a release create new repositories right after a release for the development of the next release.
Most packages are synced from sid source packages until that is turned off for the freeze, but not those that have Ubuntu specific patches, those require maintainer attention, and those that do not have sid as upstream like the kernels or nvidia drivers for example.
This is something that goes on for months, so not a snapshot.
https://askubuntu.com/questions/104287/how-is-ubuntu-more-updated-than-debian/104299#104299 old article but well written, but LTS development does not take packages from testing any more, more about that later.
The packages are uploaded as the source packages, and then build on the Ubuntu build servers for that release, which also runs the same release. (the same goes for Debian, the maintainers that create or patch the packages do build them locally or on a build server to test them, but then upload the source packages to the Debian build system where they are then build in a consistent way), so that if the developer had some different libraries or configuration changes locally that it does not influence the build packages)
Neither Debian or Ubuntu use the packages build by the Debian developers so your statement about that Ubuntu is stable because of the packages build by developers makes no sense.
The stability of a distribution comes from the release management, build procedures and QA, all of those Ubuntu does independently of Debian.
The packages build in the Ubuntu devel repositories do not get immediately available to the users that have that distribution installed, but go into the proposed repository first. That way users do not get packages that fail to install or when not all packages are build successfully from one source package.
The disaster that happened to Popos in that YouTube video would not happen when someone uses the Ubutu devel repositories, and of course also not for those using released distributions.
Ubuntu has not modified apt to install Chromium via snap, apt install the Chromium deb package, which is a transitional package, an old concept used by Debian and Ubuntu for many years. That deb package does depend on snapd, which is a deb package that installs snap support. It is that deb package that then install the Chromium snap
See https://packages.ubuntu.com/impish/chromium-browser
Download the source package files, or only the tar.xz, and extract it and look at the debian/chromium-browser.preinst file in it. Its a around 100 lines shell scripts that install the snap.
The pre and post install<and remove scripts in deb packages run as root, and can do anything..
That is one of the major reasons that you have to be very careful with adding apt sources from outside the distribution. And if you do not trust Ubuntu to not install a distribution that adds Ubuntu repositories like Mint or Popos or Kde Neon.
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slaapliedje Dec 6, 2021
Quoting: RedfaceNeither Debian or Ubuntu use the packages build by the Debian developers so your statement about that Ubuntu is stable because of the packages build by developers makes no sense.Wtf? Of course Debian and Ubuntu use the packages built by Debian developers...
The stability of a distribution comes from the release management, build procedures and QA, all of those Ubuntu does independently of Debian.
FFS. I've been a Debian user for far longer than Ubuntu has existed. I've looked into all the things for becoming a Debian maintainer at some point. Anyhow, guess this conversation really isn't doing either of us any good.
The topic at hand, if Ubuntu wants some feedback? Fix snaps. Make snaps not a central dependency upon Canonical to function, and release sources for the store. Curate the apps in snapstore better as well.
Also, stop being so 'Not invented here.' driven. Actually add to the programming pool of other projects. This has always been people's complaints. Microsoft at some point (not sure if it's still true) has actually committed more code to the Linux kernel and some other projects than Canonical have.
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