KDE Discover gets update to prevent you breaking your Linux system

I haven't said anything in a long time, but i am really "pissed" off what is currently happening. If i wanted a os which takes my hand and makes assumptions or decissions for me i would have stayed with windows or mac os ...
I choosed to not do so and i was aware that the learning curve wouldn't be easy. So it took time and love for the system to overcome what makes the system exactly not hand holding. Starting from distributions like suse -> damm yast does exactly what every beginner wants (configure your whole system) going down the road using mandrake / fedora / debian / gentoo and now arch ...
Now some people where able to break their system ... (aka format c: on windows ??? question -> did ever any microsoft engineer consider format c: to be insecure ???) and we are going to make it harder for everyone else ???
Lets be honest here , there are much better solutions out there which can cover a much wider group of mistakes which can be done by the user. In my eyes we should not stop user from doing incredible stupid things but rather enable them to always get to one step before they did something incredible stupid. Oh does this sound like snapshots to anyone else ? ....
Ok now i am quiet cause i know i will be called an elitist and someone who doesn't understand the problems of the users.
Sidenote: ubuntu did break with some packages the "official" hp driver on an lts version just in the last weeks. So much for stability and the idea of you can protect someone by don't allowing something ...


Last edited by Glog78 on 20 November 2021 at 6:31 pm UTC

Quoting: BeamboomAh! And why is that?... Ponder on that one for a bit, and then come back to me and tell me again why we should pad Linux like how Windows and MacOS works. :)

Because it's not new user friendly.

Quoting: BeamboomThat's your definition of me, not mine. I do not consider myself to be an elitist at all. I just realise that Linux is not for everyone. I'm even surprised that is a controversial opinion.

This is a controversial opinion because it's the definition of gatekeeping, and it is time gatekeeping stopped happening.

Quoting: BeamboomThe "white noise" between those VERY clear warnings were a listing of what exact packages we talk about. Information. Stuff you would not get on Windows, cause there it's just a generic popup with a red warning sign and a "something went wrong". No white noise... But is that how we want it? Really?!

There is a huge leap between "wall of text" white noise like apt spat at Linus... and what Windows does.

My suggestion was to separate the warning with line breaks on either side of it and simply make the warning a different colour.

Quoting: BeamboomThis is something that new users - ergo us all, every single one of us - has experienced on our Linux system during our first year for DECADES now. And then some celebrity (whom I have no idea who is but it seems the rest of you are on first name with) whines about it on youtube (or Twitch or wherever he's "influencing") and all of a sudden the entire Linux community jump like puppets.
Pathetic, is what it is.

So? And? What?

My dad had to walk to the corner store, buy a newspaper, go home and read it to get the news when he grew up. All I do is go on YouTube or whatever site you want to go on.

And yes, it's pathetic that it took a guy like Linus to discover a major problem with the way apt handles packages. This nonsense should have been fixed years ago.

I get it. You want your tough as nails, punishing, extremely hard to use operating system. That's YOUR idea of an OS. It doesn't mean others need to rub their face with a cheese grater every time they want to install packages.

And as I said, you can remove the protection if you want with a simple switch. Heck, you're the elitist. Get the apt source code, remove that function and compile apt yourself. These are choices available to you.

Linux is not longer a closed community. It's open to people like Linus. It's open to people like my dad (who barely knew how to turn on a computer, but used Linux Mint for 5 years). It's open to the teenager who just wants to play games. It's open to the accountant, and the [other profession].

Quoting: GuestCommand line applications are traditionally for those with a little more experience, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. GNU/Linux is not Windows, should not try to be Windows, and should definitely not try to dumb down something that's been at its core (the ability to tinker).

I agree in part. the CLI is not intended for newbies, but Linus was able to find a guide online and managed to bypass the protection offered to him by the gui, with only a single command and a verify command.

Adding protections doesn't make this dumbed down like Windows. It just adds protections.

Quoting: Glog78I haven't said anything in a long time, but i am really "pissed" off what is currently happening. If i wanted a os which takes my hand and makes assumptions or decissions for me i would have stayed with windows or mac os ...

There is an override switch.

It's not making assumptions or decisions for you. It simply has a protection to prevent removing system critical packages by accident.

No one is taking anything away from you. apt is simply being made more newbie friendly. You can still break your system as much as you want.

Quoting: NezchanI'll be damned. I've been using Linux since RedHat 5.2, but today I learned I'm not a real Linux user.

... Is that what you got out of my comments? How? If you don't mind me asking?

Quoting: NezchanAnd yeah, I raised my hand when you asked who hadn't bricked their system because they were fucking around under the hood. Another shared experience I don't share I guess. I'm a fraud.

You've been around since RedHat 5.2 and you've not screwed up your system even ONCE?! Wow! Again, not sure why you believe that makes you a "fraud", but I can't help bu thinking you're a rare breed :D

Hell, from what I recall I used my entire 2-3 first YEARS breaking my system. Tweaking like a madman, installing packages east and west, trying to force packages not compiled for my distro to work, digging and punching through config files and file property settings and thinking I got the hang of things.

Essentially doing everything I never experienced Windows giving me the opportunity to do.

Quoting: GuestI'm not saying the change itself is/isn't reasonable, but I'll have to disagree that the response wasn't knee-jerk. The time from news stories to the change was too short for any meaningful conversation to have taken place, and I can't actually find any record of one having taken place prior to the change being done. Which could be a search failure on my part, so if there is one do please let me know!

Maybe different wording? Different methods of displaying the information? Was the problem apt, or software running on top of it? Does this really address the problem? Who does it impact negatively? All kinds of questions that should've been considered before making a change that potentially impacts absolutely every distro (and by extension every person using them) built on apt - and the change (or changes, rather) don't document anything governing the rationale.

He specifically ran
sudo apt install steam

and then read the final line on the screen, and followed that instruction to type "do as I say".

I think if apt displayed that information in a clearly and more obvious form, Linus would have seen it and avoided uninstalling xorg by accident.

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: AussieEeveeI agree in part. the CLI is not intended for newbies, but Linus was able to find a guide online and managed to bypass the protection offered to him by the gui, with only a single command and a verify command.

Adding protections doesn't make this dumbed down like Windows. It just adds protections.

Actually this raises a good point: what does the apt change do that would have made anything different for a youtuber who wanted page views? Type this, then type that. It doesn't matter if it's one line or ten - he would have followed everything written. So the change to apt? Yeah, wouldn't have done anything in this case.

Someone deliberately wanting to break their system (Like Beamboom) or any clickbait youtubers? It won't change a thing. It might also not change a thing for people following guides, I don't know. I think pop's solution was a bit more obvious than debian's solution for this reason.

QuoteAlso, the original error message from the gui was exactly stopping critical packages from being removed! The original gui error message was stopping the very thing that was then done explicitly from the command line.

I completely agree with you on this point. I think Pop Shop could have been a bit more clear on what had happened, but it did offer some protection.

Unfortunately, it was far too easy for Linus to bypass the protection offered by Pop Shop without really knowing what he was doing - and this is a guy that's familiar with tech.

Quoting: AussieEevee

Quoting: Glog78I haven't said anything in a long time, but i am really "pissed" off what is currently happening. If i wanted a os which takes my hand and makes assumptions or decissions for me i would have stayed with windows or mac os ...

There is an override switch.

It's not making assumptions or decisions for you. It simply has a protection to prevent removing system critical packages by accident.

No one is taking anything away from you. apt is simply being made more newbie friendly. You can still break your system as much as you want.

More newbie friendly or for me another fucking option i need to remember and which because it should be newbie friendly won't be easy to find again (once in a blue moon when i am in charge of a debian based system) .... Specially ubuntu has been developed to a hell of a package management ...

You don't update snap -> oh the gui tool breaks because it tries to update snaps first. Oh after you got down and notice you need a new snap version you finally can now update the package ... synaptic using apt-get ... apt-get using apt .... which tool will give you now the option ? will they all be adapted or will because we are newbe friendly only that one hidden switch for apt (lowest level) be able to do what i want ? Also why did kde adapt something which clearly belongs into the hand of package management ? And does synaptic now do the same or whatever gui package manager you use ?

And how about rpm or pacman or or or ... Sorry you can't explain or make it sound reasonable to me that those changes are thought throu or will transfer over ... it's just a reaction because someone who should have known better and even didn't follow his own rules cried very loud .... Sorry if it should be newbie friendly -> installing steam wasn't possible in Pop OS with the gui tool -> Pop OS is not newbie friendly -> test done.

Sorry to be that kind of guy but i find it very strange on the one hand to always complain that a normal user shouldn't go to the command line and on the other side complain if the command line breaks something....
The command line and everything outside of officially provided packages (including protontricks / proton-ge and many more tools) are not newbie friendly and shouldn't be adviced to newbies if we want to be really newbie friendly.


Last edited by Glog78 on 20 November 2021 at 6:56 pm UTC

Quoting: Nocifer

QuoteGraham's comment underneath "Hopefully this is Linus-Sebastian-proof", heh. I hope many more application developers are looking at the way Discover and APT are evolving to ensure things are a bit more idiot-proof.

Don't know if it was intentional or not, but this tidbit here kind of blatantly equates "Linus Sebastian" to "idiot", heh :P

On topic, I think it's a good thing that Linux is slowly evolving to become a bit more suitable for the wider (read: technologically illiterate) masses of users out there; that's one of the major things it still needs to tackle as far as mainstream adoption is concerned. But I do have one question: what if I intentionally do want to remove a "system critical" package like Xorg or my DE - how do I do it if package managers, both GUI and CLI, prevent me from doing so? Is there (and if there isn't, could we pretty please have one, *hint* *hint* *wink* *wink*) a toggle somewhere that can be used to disable these fail-safes? I'm personally all for user-friendliness, but only as long as it isn't taken to the extreme of actually becoming an obstacle to a more tech-headed user's workflow.

The Apt change at least lets you override things. I always thought there could be improvements to removal in general. Like say you install kde/plasma and then decide you don't want it anymore, and would rather run gnome/xfce/etc. Currently you have to remove the meta-package (kde-plasma-desktop usually) and then 'apt autoremove'. Should be like one step maybe? Then again it is rather complicated, as maybe you don't like KDE, but want Krita...

Quoting: Glog78The command line and everything outside of officially provided packages (including protontricks / proton-ge and many more tools) are not newbie friendly and shouldn't be adviced to newbies if we want to be really newbie friendly.

This has actually been one of my biggest arguing points when talking to other Linux people. Stop recommending the command line to new users. If someone is inexperienced, can we PLEASE find a way to do it in the gui for them?

Quoting: GuestI think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Which is fine.

On which part? That it was easy to bypass the pop shop? Or that he's familiar with tech?

If the latter, he has managed to drop virtually every hardware component in existence, if that counts...

Quoting: AussieEevee

Quoting: Glog78The command line and everything outside of officially provided packages (including protontricks / proton-ge and many more tools) are not newbie friendly and shouldn't be adviced to newbies if we want to be really newbie friendly.

This has actually been one of my biggest arguing points when talking to other Linux people. Stop recommending the command line to new users. If someone is inexperienced, can we PLEASE find a way to do it in the gui for them?

Quoting: GuestI think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Which is fine.

On which part? That it was easy to bypass the pop shop? Or that he's familiar with tech?

If the latter, he has managed to drop virtually every hardware component in existence, if that counts...

They do exist, but noone test anymore suse or redhat and also we need to stop saying that everything runs. If you don't want to make your hands dirty , i can tell so many things which doesn't run out of the box in many typically gamer scenarios. But thats the same for windows. Ever tried to get some old games working on windows 10 or windows 11. The point is if a gamer gets their hand dirty with tools like dxwnd and the like on windows -> it's ok. If a user gets their hand dirty with the console it's not ok ? ... i have no answer besides the one i posted. Stop thinking of making the tools different , start thinking of giving the user a possibility to always get back to a working point.

I give an totally different scenario -> how many people at least once did a reset on their smartphone ? -> thats what we need (imho). Loosing the fear of breaking something in a way you can't recover. The tech is promised and out there since years -> btrfs / zfs ? copy on write and more. Let them get their hands dirty , let them do what they want to do but never let them run into a state when hours / days / weeks of work get lost. Or in other words finally implement modern backup methods into modern distributions (cloud saves for data if you want / snapshots for data / snapshots for systemprograms) .... and no flatpack / snap aren't a real answer in my eyes too and if it is only for the reason that their "security" features prevent them from easy use. A mac os or windows user don't understand containers and container based security and he don't want to understand why a program don't follow the theme he has set or why he needs a special driver version or or or ...


Last edited by Glog78 on 20 November 2021 at 7:21 pm UTC