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PayPalThere's been a huge amount of talk recently about switching to Linux for gaming, thanks to the challenge from Linus Tech Tips (YouTube) where two of their people tried the full-switch but it didn't go so well for Linus and Pop!_OS. Now, System76 are trying to improve.
It was pretty unfortunate that as Linus was going to install Steam, Pop's packaging had some sort of breakage that wasn't quite picked up and Linus ended up hosing the Pop desktop install. You can easily do some finger-pointing on where the real blame lies here from Pop not ensuring a major package like Steam works correctly before it's pushed to users, to Linus ignoring the (what should be) pretty-clear warning message:
Oh no, please, Linus — don't do it! Linus did it.
The point remains the same regardless, and throwing around pointy-fingers isn't really helpful. It shouldn't have happened, it's as simple as that. Loading up the Pop!_Shop GUI and telling it to install Steam should have been enough. Going by what System76 engineer Jeremy Soller said on Twitter, the cause was this:
"For some reason, an i386 version of a package was never published on Launchpad. Steam being an i386 package, when trying to install it, it had to downgrade that package to the Ubuntu version to resolve dependencies, which removed Pop!_OS packages.".
One thing System76 has now done to prevent such almighty breakage in future, is to patch APT (the package manager), in Pop to prevent users being able to see the "Yes, do as I say!" prompt by default. Unless, they add a special file to actually enable it. On top of that, another System76 developer Jacob Kauffmann mentioned on GitHub their plans to "make further improvements" to the Pop!_Shop GUI so that "users don't have to fall back to the terminal in the first place". Sounds like lessons learned, and hopefully smooth sailing for users in future.
Update: a new version of APT brings in its own improvements for this.
Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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At least there is one comment thread with over 1024 comments with "wow didn't know linux sucked this hard".Those kind of comments are usually from those fanboys who says "just install windows" when someone asks about linux support, then cries about some game being console exclusive (the irony).
The real damage is if someone thinking about trying linux take this video as the first (and maybe only) impression.
He is by far the biggest tech youtuber. Linus Sebastian is not exactly a Linux friendly PC user, but in his team he has a guy named Anthony that is an advocate of Linux OS.Hmm then I get it why there's so many people talking about it
There's a guy in my country who makes some amazing videos about linux called "Diolinux" aiming for beginners, but since all his content is in Brazilian Portuguese his videos can't reach many people worldwide due to not being on English.
I'm pretty sure some of his followers access this site too
3 Likes, Who?
Mohandevir Nov 10, 2021
Also, who actually ignores warning messages and proceeds regardless?
People wanting to prove a point. The less cynical answer: "Windows people that are conditioned to ignore things like UAC and just click next->next->next regardless".
Must take into account that warning messages in Windows usually means next to nothing, even, in some cases, for the tech savies. Thus, the Next->Next->Next and then look at the damages. Then do a search with the error message and the resulting behavior and you might find a solution that has absolutely no link to the said original message...
5 Likes, Who?
I tried popos and it was the same garbage as ubuntu. After some update the system got broken. From my experience manjaro is far better choice then anything Debian based. Turd is a turd no matter how much chocolate topping you put on
Grow up. Will you?
Seriously, this distro/DE/init system/display server bashing is just plain tiring. I have been working on Ubuntu since 8.04 and never (yes, never!) experienced any groundbreaking problems, yet I have never felt inclined to name-calling other distributions.
(BTW you should run Arch and mention it accordingly. Manjaro! How lame is that!)
6 Likes, Who?
The fact this slipped through System 76's internal testing is absolutely inexcusable!
Also, who actually ignores warning messages and proceeds regardless?
What other options does he have as an "uninformed user"? You get the information that some packages are being removed. So? Then he would have to know what this packages are actually good for. And as already mentioned: He had no other option than to hit "y" if he wanted Steam.
3 Likes, Who?
Meanwhile everything seemed to work fine for him with Manjaro, which he should have chosen from the get-go, because of newest kernels, newest drivers, for newest hardware,Well, maybe, but everything also went fine for his challenge buddy with Mint, which has neither newest kernels nor newest drivers. There are a lot of distros and I don't think it's valid to claim he "should" have chosen Manjaro.
Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 10 November 2021 at 5:35 pm UTC
5 Likes, Who?
But then I realize it's about some guy from YouTube.
"Some guy" is putting it mildly. I'd say a lot more potential Linux users out there know Linus Sebastian but have never heard of Linus Torvalds before.
4 Likes, Who?
Bad timing indeed, sadly what a missed opportunity for Pop!_OS (God!...this name!) to show its value. (as a side note, I felt so vindicated when Linus agreed that it has a "spectacularly stupid name").I am also one of the people that are bothered with those silly names, "Pop!_OS" and "MariaDB" for example make it looks like those are pet projects made by one person, rather than serious solutions.
How influential is this Linus guy in general (outside US/UK)? I never watched anything from him, but judging by how many people are talking about this video makes me thing that this could unfortunately scary new user out of trying a linux distro (or worse, advocating against it).
The video have 1.1M views and then it was first released on their own paid platform so unable to know how many views it had there.
At least there is one comment thread with over 1024 comments with "wow didn't know linux sucked this hard".
Yeah, there are a lot of comments like that there, as if they only saw that one part of the video. Some are possibly MS employees who work on their image, a lot are undoubtedly people who’d never try Linux anyway because they’re happy to remain on the winning team.
0 Likes
It's just sad... Bad timing. The problem is solved, I read? Took what? Couple of hours to get a fix? How much time would have been required, on Windows, to get a fix for a similar issue? Next tuesday patch? Next month? I must admit that I never witnessed a Windows update bricking a PC or generate a BSOD, either...
But it's Linux, it doesn't have that margin. It must be nothing less than perfect, accross the board, on all distributions simultaneously, to convince mainstream users.
This is something that happens across various industries, not just OSs. I recently had a conversation about this regarding rowboats of all things. Once a company/product is “market leader” in the minds of the people they can do pretty much anything and people just shrug and learn to live with that. Any competitors, however, must constantly be perfect and any slip up is met with ridicule and serves only to reinforce peoples’ conviction it’s futile to struggle against the status quo and keep using the leader’s product. It’s a very curious psychological construct.
12 Likes, Who?
Maybe I'm too old, but it feels weird for me when I see Linux users are saying "Linus" without mentioning the surname of that Linus, and it turns out that it is not about Torvalds. I read headlines like "Linus tries to install Linux", "Linus breaks his Linux installation", "Linus bashes Linux" and wonder wtf has happened to Torvalds? But then I realize it's about some guy from YouTube.
Felt similar with the Steam thread "Linus Discusses His Experience Moving to Linux". Finally. :D
1 Likes, Who?
Linus strikes me as being in that sweet spot where he knows a lot about computer tech stuff in general, which makes him confident, but doesn't actually know enough about Linux to justify his confidence in that specific setting. So he can confidently make a big mistake. If it was me, I don't have a ton of knowledge, so I don't have the confidence, but I do know enough to know that screwing up on the command line on Linux can have big results. So I wouldn't have done what he did.Also, who actually ignores warning messages and proceeds regardless?
People wanting to prove a point. The less cynical answer: "Windows people that are conditioned to ignore things like UAC and just click next->next->next regardless".
To be fair, in his case not having Steam would be almost as serious as not having a desktop--the main point of him having a desktop was to play games on Steam, so if the desktop won't let him install Steam it's kind of pointless. And it was a fresh install with no personal files on the hard drive, 'cause he'd switched to a brand new one--the "hardware guy" approach to security. So risking things going wrong was a small penalty, and potentially getting Steam by running that risk was a big reward. So where for most people, installing one package would be way less important than the chance of screwing up their system, he could be like "Sure, why not?"
Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 10 November 2021 at 6:01 pm UTC
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remain on the winning team
That's quite the choice of words. When everyone on a road drives a car, and I choose a motorbike, I don't think of the car drivers as the winning team.
Some things are better for them, perhaps. But I'm still not jealous of what they're doing. Indeed, I feel sorry for them, because the car metaphor breaks in a big way - car users get to see motorcyclists and think, "woah, sure there's disadvantages, but my god, look at it go, look at the way it cuts through traffic, look at the mpg, the running costs, look at how many different types of motorbike there are, how beautiful and varied the choice is". And at least car drivers get to decide if a motorbike is for them.
Windows users don't generally get that opportunity. Most have absolutely no idea what Linux looks like, or what it can (or can't) do. It's a shame. It would nice to give Linux a proper spotlight. This was an opportunity, and instead all anyone's talking about is an absolutely freakish Pop failure which Linus absolutely used to make a point.
One way the metaphor does work though - if a car driver jumps on a motorbike, good chance they'll really, really hurt themselves. Because, and it's obvious, and yet often overlooked for some reason: THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. If you do Linux in the "Windows Way", you're gonna visit nvidia.com, download the driver, follow the baffling instructions and then wonder why your PC is broken.
The whole experience was frustrating because it's clear that several decisions were made poorly, with no attempt at research. Maybe that's a reflection on the world at large, but I think most people who are curious about Linux are better than that. And if they're not, I have no time for them anyway.
3 Likes, Who?
I agree with your post, scaine, but you’re reading too much into my words. The winning team is simply the one with the biggest market share, which basically also in this case means you can do “everything” on it, whatever that may mean.
People like being in the majority, it reinforces their life choices and makes them more sure of themselves. It also gives them easy arguments, like I can do that, you can’t do that ergo your thing is shit and mine is awesome. It’s also very easy to manipulate people into feeling bad about their choice with e.g. a meaningless higher number, regardless of the general picture.
People like being in the majority, it reinforces their life choices and makes them more sure of themselves. It also gives them easy arguments, like I can do that, you can’t do that ergo your thing is shit and mine is awesome. It’s also very easy to manipulate people into feeling bad about their choice with e.g. a meaningless higher number, regardless of the general picture.
3 Likes, Who?
Yeah, my point is that if you're driving a Ferrari, then Ford isn't the winning team. If you're dining at a Michelin star restaurant, you're not jealous of the McDonalds.
Being the majority is definitely a thing, a mentality that some enjoy. I doubt many "all in" Linux users share that mentality.
Honestly, I wouldn't care about more people using Linux AT ALL, except that there's a certain tipping point where life gets better for us due to those numbers. What other people do/use/consume is of no consequence to my mindset. I've avoided fashion, even, all my life. Music, art - I've always enjoyed niche. Always avoided the herd.
But if we can get 4 or 5% of the planet on Linux, then the platform becomes more compelling overall, which ought to bring certain benefits.
Being the majority is definitely a thing, a mentality that some enjoy. I doubt many "all in" Linux users share that mentality.
Honestly, I wouldn't care about more people using Linux AT ALL, except that there's a certain tipping point where life gets better for us due to those numbers. What other people do/use/consume is of no consequence to my mindset. I've avoided fashion, even, all my life. Music, art - I've always enjoyed niche. Always avoided the herd.
But if we can get 4 or 5% of the planet on Linux, then the platform becomes more compelling overall, which ought to bring certain benefits.
7 Likes, Who?
Linus strikes me as being in that sweet spot where he knows a lot about computer tech stuff in general, which makes him confident, but doesn't actually know enough about Linux to justify his confidence in that specific setting. So he can confidently make a big mistake. If it was me, I don't have a ton of knowledge, so I don't have the confidence, but I do know enough to know that screwing up on the command line on Linux can have big results. So I wouldn't have done what he did.Also, who actually ignores warning messages and proceeds regardless?
People wanting to prove a point. The less cynical answer: "Windows people that are conditioned to ignore things like UAC and just click next->next->next regardless".
To be fair, in his case not having Steam would be almost as serious as not having a desktop--the main point of him having a desktop was to play games on Steam, so if the desktop won't let him install Steam it's kind of pointless. And it was a fresh install with no personal files on the hard drive, 'cause he'd switched to a brand new one--the "hardware guy" approach to security. So risking things going wrong was a small penalty, and potentially getting Steam by running that risk was a big reward. So where for most people, installing one package would be way less important than the chance of screwing up their system, he could be like "Sure, why not?"
Of course, my main issue here is that he actually says in the video at 10:15 "removing essential packages, what are you talking about". Could be that he just said it out loud and not really processed it, I cannot speak for what went on in his mind at the time :) it's just that he have talked alot before they made these videos that a problem with Linux is that "you have to use the console to fix everything" which is why I lean more towards this being "oh this gave me a good example of showing that Linux does required the terminal and why it's so dangerous to do so".
1 Likes, Who?
It's just sad... Bad timing. The problem is solved, I read? Took what? Couple of hours to get a fix? How much time would have been required, on Windows, to get a fix for a similar issue? Next tuesday patch? Next month? I must admit that I never witnessed a Windows update bricking a PC or generate a BSOD, either...
But it's Linux, it doesn't have that margin. It must be nothing less than perfect, accross the board, on all distributions simultaneously, to convince mainstream users.
This is something that happens across various industries, not just OSs. I recently had a conversation about this regarding rowboats of all things. Once a company/product is “market leader” in the minds of the people they can do pretty much anything and people just shrug and learn to live with that. Any competitors, however, must constantly be perfect and any slip up is met with ridicule and serves only to reinforce peoples’ conviction it’s futile to struggle against the status quo and keep using the leader’s product. It’s a very curious psychological construct.
The age old, "No one is ever fired for buying IBM".
2 Likes, Who?
I think that was a good thing that that kind of things happened.
Honestly, a video where everything worked exactly as intended would have been very boring and unmemorable.
With a month of footage, I expect to see a few other bombastic moments, which is great.
That might encourage more users to try the challenge see if they can do better, and maybe stick with Linux, if their experience is enjoyable.
Honestly, a video where everything worked exactly as intended would have been very boring and unmemorable.
With a month of footage, I expect to see a few other bombastic moments, which is great.
That might encourage more users to try the challenge see if they can do better, and maybe stick with Linux, if their experience is enjoyable.
1 Likes, Who?
Bad timing indeed, sadly what a missed opportunity for Pop!_OS (God!...this name!) to show its value. (as a side note, I felt so vindicated when Linus agreed that it has a "spectacularly stupid name").I am also one of the people that are bothered with those silly names, "Pop!_OS" and "MariaDB" for example make it looks like those are pet projects made by one person, rather than serious solutions.
How influential is this Linus guy in general (outside US/UK)? I never watched anything from him, but judging by how many people are talking about this video makes me thing that this could unfortunately scary new user out of trying a linux distro (or worse, advocating against it).
The video have 1.1M views and then it was first released on their own paid platform so unable to know how many views it had there.
At least there is one comment thread with over 1024 comments with "wow didn't know linux sucked this hard".
Yeah, there are a lot of comments like that there, as if they only saw that one part of the video. Some are possibly MS employees who work on their image, a lot are undoubtedly people who’d never try Linux anyway because they’re happy to remain on the winning team.
I'm not cynical enough to believe that there are actual MS employees making comments on that video. It's more likely salty edge lords and the "we are on the winning team" crowd that you speak of.
What bothers me more are the thousands of comments there on people claiming to have tried Linux, something failed and when they reached out for help on forums or subreddits they where met with hostility and snark from Linux users. Then again they never ever give links to said posts so it's hard to know if it did happen, if it did happen but understandably so due to context or if it's just made up.
5 Likes, Who?
Philadelphus Nov 10, 2021
On the other hand, the video did nothing to highlight all the warnings that what was about to happen could damage the system, plenty of opportunities were provided to back out, and an admin password I'm sure needed to be entered (checking....and yes). From the command line. That's up there with "here's a random .exe from an email, just open it" on Windows. Don't unless you know what you're doing - and that's something that really should've been given more emphasis in the video rather than saying how terrible everything is.I suppose the thing to remember is that humans aren't born with instinctual knowledge to avoid doing either of those things, but once we've learned to do it it's easy to forget that fact. "Don't open a random .exe from an unsolicited email" seems like a no-brainer to you or I, and yet it happens (many, many times) every day, because it actually needs to be taught, just like learning which parts of the terminal output are important and should be paid attention to. I agree that it'd be great to see this used as a learning opportunity with some sort of follow-up. We'll see how it goes, I suppose. Maybe I'm just optimistic, but I suspect once they get through the initial hurdles of installing and getting drivers set up it'll be mostly smooth sailing unless they're trying games that don't work on Proton or very unusual use cases or something.
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Then again they never ever give links to said posts so it's hard to know if it did happen, if it did happen but understandably so due to context or if it's just made up.
Great point. I spent over a decade on Ubuntu Forums, Ask Ubuntu and a handful of other "help" forums and I've never seen anyone hand out snark as a starting point to a Windows user asking for help. What actually happened quite a lot though is that the Windows user asked for help, got it, but didn't like the solution, claimed "Linux is shit, I'm going back to Windows" and when the forum users responded with "don't let the door hit you on the way out", they threw a hissy fit and claimed that the Linux community was/is toxic.
Bad faith, every time. Sometimes you could tell from the way the opening request was formed how it was going to end. Inevitable.
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