There's been a huge amount of talk recently about switching to Linux for gaming, thanks to the challenge from Linus Tech Tips (YouTube) where two of their people tried the full-switch but it didn't go so well for Linus and Pop!_OS. Now, System76 are trying to improve.
It was pretty unfortunate that as Linus was going to install Steam, Pop's packaging had some sort of breakage that wasn't quite picked up and Linus ended up hosing the Pop desktop install. You can easily do some finger-pointing on where the real blame lies here from Pop not ensuring a major package like Steam works correctly before it's pushed to users, to Linus ignoring the (what should be) pretty-clear warning message:
Oh no, please, Linus — don't do it! Linus did it.
The point remains the same regardless, and throwing around pointy-fingers isn't really helpful. It shouldn't have happened, it's as simple as that. Loading up the Pop!_Shop GUI and telling it to install Steam should have been enough. Going by what System76 engineer Jeremy Soller said on Twitter, the cause was this:
"For some reason, an i386 version of a package was never published on Launchpad. Steam being an i386 package, when trying to install it, it had to downgrade that package to the Ubuntu version to resolve dependencies, which removed Pop!_OS packages.".
One thing System76 has now done to prevent such almighty breakage in future, is to patch APT (the package manager), in Pop to prevent users being able to see the "Yes, do as I say!" prompt by default. Unless, they add a special file to actually enable it. On top of that, another System76 developer Jacob Kauffmann mentioned on GitHub their plans to "make further improvements" to the Pop!_Shop GUI so that "users don't have to fall back to the terminal in the first place". Sounds like lessons learned, and hopefully smooth sailing for users in future.
Update: a new version of APT brings in its own improvements for this.
Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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The comments on this article are closed.
Quoting: scaineQuoting: kalinI tried popos and it was the same garbage as ubuntu. After some update the system got broken. From my experience manjaro is far better choice then anything Debian based. Turd is a turd no matter how much chocolate topping you put on
This kind of comment is unhelpful and, frankly, deluded. I've said it before - it's insanely frustrating to see such a small niche shitting on another niche just to get one over on the other 'side'. Grow up.
No, I just have an opinion, negative one and it's coming from personal experience. I tried many distros for big period of time. The last time I used ubuntu was for 8 mounts and frankly this time was better then previous time because now they use systemd and my system boot for adequate time yet many of their packages are not linked to most recent version of their libc or other crucial lib which lead to crashes or undefined behavior. I stopped using it after system get broken after update, similarly to what happen to Linus with pop os (not like I blame apt)
I don't even remember why I stop using popos but in the beginning I was so enthusiastic that I even donate money to the project and only after 4 mounts I quit it forever
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Quoting: kalinQuoting: scaineQuoting: kalinI tried popos and it was the same garbage as ubuntu. After some update the system got broken. From my experience manjaro is far better choice then anything Debian based. Turd is a turd no matter how much chocolate topping you put on
This kind of comment is unhelpful and, frankly, deluded. I've said it before - it's insanely frustrating to see such a small niche shitting on another niche just to get one over on the other 'side'. Grow up.
No, I just have an opinion, negative one and it's coming from personal experience. I tried many distros for big period of time. The last time I used ubuntu was for 8 mounts and frankly this time was better then previous time because now they use systemd and my system boot for adequate time yet many of their packages are not linked to most recent version of their libc or other crucial lib which lead to crashes or undefined behavior. I stopped using it after system get broken after update, similarly to what happen to Linus with pop os (not like I blame apt)
I don't even remember why I stop using popos but in the beginning I was so enthusiastic that I even donate money to the project and only after 4 mounts I quit it forever
Just curious, what were your issues with Debian? (I'm talking about Debian here, not Ubuntu and Ubuntu based distros)
Last edited by Rooster on 10 November 2021 at 8:33 pm UTC
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Perkeleen_Vittupää Nov 10, 2021
Quoting: SamsaiThe whole Steam debacle seems to indicate that maybe this type of software really should be installed through Flatpak and the like. At least that makes it harder to accidentally uninstall your entire DE and display manager.
Yes, everything needed right there and also sandboxed as a bonus. Those who don't like that, can refrain using snaps and flatpaks etc. But we should have to take the UX of a total newbie (and Linus is not such, still borking the system) to account indeed.
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Quoting: Purple Library GuyGreat summary PLB. LTT (Linus Tech Tips) started out with a big focus on hardware with an audience who were home PC builders and PC Master Race builders. He used to do a lot of reviews on different hardware components and provide tech tips for builders. For example he has a really interesting episode where he compares thermal paste application methods and compounds to see if there is a big difference.Quoting: F.UltraLinus strikes me as being in that sweet spot where he knows a lot about computer tech stuff in general, which makes him confident, but doesn't actually know enough about Linux to justify his confidence in that specific setting. So he can confidently make a big mistake. If it was me, I don't have a ton of knowledge, so I don't have the confidence, but I do know enough to know that screwing up on the command line on Linux can have big results. So I wouldn't have done what he did.Quoting: GuestAlso, who actually ignores warning messages and proceeds regardless?
People wanting to prove a point. The less cynical answer: "Windows people that are conditioned to ignore things like UAC and just click next->next->next regardless".
To be fair, in his case not having Steam would be almost as serious as not having a desktop--the main point of him having a desktop was to play games on Steam, so if the desktop won't let him install Steam it's kind of pointless. And it was a fresh install with no personal files on the hard drive, 'cause he'd switched to a brand new one--the "hardware guy" approach to security. So risking things going wrong was a small penalty, and potentially getting Steam by running that risk was a big reward. So where for most people, installing one package would be way less important than the chance of screwing up their system, he could be like "Sure, why not?"
The saddest part of that video to me is when his partner (who used Mint) pre-apologized to the Linux community for potentially offending them for any missteps he might take and how he was worried about "Linux Chads" berating him for it. I mean that's just sad and unfortunately a lot of comments in this thread completely reinforce his fear.
In my opinion, if Linux gamers (and Linux users in general) really want greater adoption, then the community needs to be a lot kinder, understanding, and more welcoming. Digging into tribalism, distro slagging, using denigrating terms to describe "windows users", and reinforcing an "us vs them" team mentality is not going to win hearts and minds. If someone is overly harsh and beats a puppy, it will turn on them and always fear them. Is that really the environment and direction we want to take? Is that how the community in general wants to be perceived?
Last edited by randyl on 10 November 2021 at 8:53 pm UTC
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Holzkohlen Nov 10, 2021
Quoting: gradyvuckovicIt's easy to be disappointed by the first episode of this series and view it as a disaster.
I found it to be absolutely hilarious. I don't care about petty squabbles. No distro is perfect, linux is not perfect, but that is not why any of us use it. I also find it funny how the linux community as a whole seems to behave like a corporate PR department, thinking of this in terms of a PR disaster.
I for one am excited for the rest of this series. I had a blast watching the first one.
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Quoting: GuestQuoting: TuxeeQuoting: GuestThe fact this slipped through System 76's internal testing is absolutely inexcusable!
Also, who actually ignores warning messages and proceeds regardless?
What other options does he have as an "uninformed user"? You get the information that some packages are being removed. So? Then he would have to know what this packages are actually good for. And as already mentioned: He had no other option than to hit "y" if he wanted Steam.
He could have asked Anthony, but being stubborn, didn't.
I get the impression Linus is not as clueless as he makes out and ultimately manipulated his viewers.
Most likely not. But that's the point. AFAIK they agreed not to turn to third parties. We (at least a vocal portion of us) are constantly claiming how super-easy, barely an inconvenience it is to install a mainstream Linux distro. He just did what any Joe Average would do. Nothing else.
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Quoting: GuestQuoting: GuestHe could have asked Anthony, but being stubborn, didn't.
I get the impression Linus is not as clueless as he makes out and ultimately manipulated his viewers.
This I think was the point. To generate a bunch of rage to draw in clicks & viewers. It's a tactic that works all too often sadly enough, and I really would not be surprised if it was the case here as well.
I think his point was to represent average user. That was also his reasoning not to ask help from Anthony (or other people he knows). That seems to result in that he is less willing to investigate things further. He can always reason that it would be something regular user wouldn't do. Not reading messages and proceeding on is pretty much regular user behavior.
He must have been quite tired at that point though, which doesn't make things easier.
Luckily Luke seems to bring in some balance as he clearly knew what he's getting into.
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Quoting: HolzkohlenQuoting: gradyvuckovicIt's easy to be disappointed by the first episode of this series and view it as a disaster.
I found it to be absolutely hilarious. I don't care about petty squabbles. No distro is perfect, linux is not perfect, but that is not why any of us use it. I also find it funny how the linux community as a whole seems to behave like a corporate PR department, thinking of this in terms of a PR disaster.
I for one am excited for the rest of this series. I had a blast watching the first one.
I have been watching LMG clips and there's further trouble ahead for sure. Luke and Linus have been discussing how things are going few time already.
Hopefully people realize that removing desktop is actually feature. It's good way to remove lot of extra cruft if you don't want to reinstall server version (or maybe even version that has some other desktop bundled).
Problem is that preventing people that don't actually want to do that doing just that is apparently not that easy.
PS: I guess the old joke about UNIX and shooting yourself in the foot applies here. There's plenty of those around, here's one: https://www.netjeff.com/humor/item.cgi?file=ShootInFoot-OS
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Mohandevir Nov 10, 2021
Quoting: AnzaI think his point was to represent average user.
But he didn't stumble on an average issue either. This particular issue is like winning at the lottery. It was a major fumble by Pop_OS! that, more than likely, will never happen again. It's not like, 10 years ago, running an ATI GPU would invariably confront you with major display issues because of bad drivers or network cards (Broadcom to name one) that were unsupported because there was no drivers available at all. This issue is absolutely not representative of what it is to run Steam on Linux. It's a sad bug that shouldn't have happened, that was taken out of context, imo.
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Quoting: Liam DaweQuoting: berarmaThis is a distraction move. Where's the news about the Steam package being fixed and the reason it was published without being tested? Because that's the real issue.A distraction move? No. Where's the news? This is it. I don't follow Pop for such issues personally to know if a package breaks, no one notified us, and now it's all solved so we've reported on it with details that we have.
I didn't mean a distraction move from your part but from System76. That's the news they're spreading and want everybody to talk about. They're trying to divert our attention from the real issue. I'm not blaming you, although we should try to look through the smoke curtain.
Last edited by berarma on 10 November 2021 at 9:49 pm UTC
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