There's been a huge amount of talk recently about switching to Linux for gaming, thanks to the challenge from Linus Tech Tips (YouTube) where two of their people tried the full-switch but it didn't go so well for Linus and Pop!_OS. Now, System76 are trying to improve.
It was pretty unfortunate that as Linus was going to install Steam, Pop's packaging had some sort of breakage that wasn't quite picked up and Linus ended up hosing the Pop desktop install. You can easily do some finger-pointing on where the real blame lies here from Pop not ensuring a major package like Steam works correctly before it's pushed to users, to Linus ignoring the (what should be) pretty-clear warning message:
Oh no, please, Linus — don't do it! Linus did it.
The point remains the same regardless, and throwing around pointy-fingers isn't really helpful. It shouldn't have happened, it's as simple as that. Loading up the Pop!_Shop GUI and telling it to install Steam should have been enough. Going by what System76 engineer Jeremy Soller said on Twitter, the cause was this:
"For some reason, an i386 version of a package was never published on Launchpad. Steam being an i386 package, when trying to install it, it had to downgrade that package to the Ubuntu version to resolve dependencies, which removed Pop!_OS packages.".
One thing System76 has now done to prevent such almighty breakage in future, is to patch APT (the package manager), in Pop to prevent users being able to see the "Yes, do as I say!" prompt by default. Unless, they add a special file to actually enable it. On top of that, another System76 developer Jacob Kauffmann mentioned on GitHub their plans to "make further improvements" to the Pop!_Shop GUI so that "users don't have to fall back to the terminal in the first place". Sounds like lessons learned, and hopefully smooth sailing for users in future.
Update: a new version of APT brings in its own improvements for this.
Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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I tried popos and it was the same garbage as ubuntu. After some update the system got broken. From my experience manjaro is far better choice then anything Debian based. Turd is a turd no matter how much chocolate topping you put on
This kind of comment is unhelpful and, frankly, deluded. I've said it before - it's insanely frustrating to see such a small niche shitting on another niche just to get one over on the other 'side'. Grow up.
No, I just have an opinion, negative one and it's coming from personal experience. I tried many distros for big period of time. The last time I used ubuntu was for 8 mounts and frankly this time was better then previous time because now they use systemd and my system boot for adequate time yet many of their packages are not linked to most recent version of their libc or other crucial lib which lead to crashes or undefined behavior. I stopped using it after system get broken after update, similarly to what happen to Linus with pop os (not like I blame apt)
I don't even remember why I stop using popos but in the beginning I was so enthusiastic that I even donate money to the project and only after 4 mounts I quit it forever
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I tried popos and it was the same garbage as ubuntu. After some update the system got broken. From my experience manjaro is far better choice then anything Debian based. Turd is a turd no matter how much chocolate topping you put on
This kind of comment is unhelpful and, frankly, deluded. I've said it before - it's insanely frustrating to see such a small niche shitting on another niche just to get one over on the other 'side'. Grow up.
No, I just have an opinion, negative one and it's coming from personal experience. I tried many distros for big period of time. The last time I used ubuntu was for 8 mounts and frankly this time was better then previous time because now they use systemd and my system boot for adequate time yet many of their packages are not linked to most recent version of their libc or other crucial lib which lead to crashes or undefined behavior. I stopped using it after system get broken after update, similarly to what happen to Linus with pop os (not like I blame apt)
I don't even remember why I stop using popos but in the beginning I was so enthusiastic that I even donate money to the project and only after 4 mounts I quit it forever
Just curious, what were your issues with Debian? (I'm talking about Debian here, not Ubuntu and Ubuntu based distros)
Last edited by Rooster on 10 November 2021 at 8:33 pm UTC
1 Likes, Who?
Perkeleen_Vittupää Nov 10, 2021
The whole Steam debacle seems to indicate that maybe this type of software really should be installed through Flatpak and the like. At least that makes it harder to accidentally uninstall your entire DE and display manager.
Yes, everything needed right there and also sandboxed as a bonus. Those who don't like that, can refrain using snaps and flatpaks etc. But we should have to take the UX of a total newbie (and Linus is not such, still borking the system) to account indeed.
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Great summary PLB. LTT (Linus Tech Tips) started out with a big focus on hardware with an audience who were home PC builders and PC Master Race builders. He used to do a lot of reviews on different hardware components and provide tech tips for builders. For example he has a really interesting episode where he compares thermal paste application methods and compounds to see if there is a big difference.Linus strikes me as being in that sweet spot where he knows a lot about computer tech stuff in general, which makes him confident, but doesn't actually know enough about Linux to justify his confidence in that specific setting. So he can confidently make a big mistake. If it was me, I don't have a ton of knowledge, so I don't have the confidence, but I do know enough to know that screwing up on the command line on Linux can have big results. So I wouldn't have done what he did.Also, who actually ignores warning messages and proceeds regardless?
People wanting to prove a point. The less cynical answer: "Windows people that are conditioned to ignore things like UAC and just click next->next->next regardless".
To be fair, in his case not having Steam would be almost as serious as not having a desktop--the main point of him having a desktop was to play games on Steam, so if the desktop won't let him install Steam it's kind of pointless. And it was a fresh install with no personal files on the hard drive, 'cause he'd switched to a brand new one--the "hardware guy" approach to security. So risking things going wrong was a small penalty, and potentially getting Steam by running that risk was a big reward. So where for most people, installing one package would be way less important than the chance of screwing up their system, he could be like "Sure, why not?"
The saddest part of that video to me is when his partner (who used Mint) pre-apologized to the Linux community for potentially offending them for any missteps he might take and how he was worried about "Linux Chads" berating him for it. I mean that's just sad and unfortunately a lot of comments in this thread completely reinforce his fear.
In my opinion, if Linux gamers (and Linux users in general) really want greater adoption, then the community needs to be a lot kinder, understanding, and more welcoming. Digging into tribalism, distro slagging, using denigrating terms to describe "windows users", and reinforcing an "us vs them" team mentality is not going to win hearts and minds. If someone is overly harsh and beats a puppy, it will turn on them and always fear them. Is that really the environment and direction we want to take? Is that how the community in general wants to be perceived?
Last edited by randyl on 10 November 2021 at 8:53 pm UTC
9 Likes, Who?
Holzkohlen Nov 10, 2021
It's easy to be disappointed by the first episode of this series and view it as a disaster.
I found it to be absolutely hilarious. I don't care about petty squabbles. No distro is perfect, linux is not perfect, but that is not why any of us use it. I also find it funny how the linux community as a whole seems to behave like a corporate PR department, thinking of this in terms of a PR disaster.
I for one am excited for the rest of this series. I had a blast watching the first one.
2 Likes, Who?
The fact this slipped through System 76's internal testing is absolutely inexcusable!
Also, who actually ignores warning messages and proceeds regardless?
What other options does he have as an "uninformed user"? You get the information that some packages are being removed. So? Then he would have to know what this packages are actually good for. And as already mentioned: He had no other option than to hit "y" if he wanted Steam.
He could have asked Anthony, but being stubborn, didn't.
I get the impression Linus is not as clueless as he makes out and ultimately manipulated his viewers.
Most likely not. But that's the point. AFAIK they agreed not to turn to third parties. We (at least a vocal portion of us) are constantly claiming how super-easy, barely an inconvenience it is to install a mainstream Linux distro. He just did what any Joe Average would do. Nothing else.
2 Likes, Who?
He could have asked Anthony, but being stubborn, didn't.
I get the impression Linus is not as clueless as he makes out and ultimately manipulated his viewers.
This I think was the point. To generate a bunch of rage to draw in clicks & viewers. It's a tactic that works all too often sadly enough, and I really would not be surprised if it was the case here as well.
I think his point was to represent average user. That was also his reasoning not to ask help from Anthony (or other people he knows). That seems to result in that he is less willing to investigate things further. He can always reason that it would be something regular user wouldn't do. Not reading messages and proceeding on is pretty much regular user behavior.
He must have been quite tired at that point though, which doesn't make things easier.
Luckily Luke seems to bring in some balance as he clearly knew what he's getting into.
2 Likes, Who?
It's easy to be disappointed by the first episode of this series and view it as a disaster.
I found it to be absolutely hilarious. I don't care about petty squabbles. No distro is perfect, linux is not perfect, but that is not why any of us use it. I also find it funny how the linux community as a whole seems to behave like a corporate PR department, thinking of this in terms of a PR disaster.
I for one am excited for the rest of this series. I had a blast watching the first one.
I have been watching LMG clips and there's further trouble ahead for sure. Luke and Linus have been discussing how things are going few time already.
Hopefully people realize that removing desktop is actually feature. It's good way to remove lot of extra cruft if you don't want to reinstall server version (or maybe even version that has some other desktop bundled).
Problem is that preventing people that don't actually want to do that doing just that is apparently not that easy.
PS: I guess the old joke about UNIX and shooting yourself in the foot applies here. There's plenty of those around, here's one: https://www.netjeff.com/humor/item.cgi?file=ShootInFoot-OS
2 Likes, Who?
Mohandevir Nov 10, 2021
I think his point was to represent average user.
But he didn't stumble on an average issue either. This particular issue is like winning at the lottery. It was a major fumble by Pop_OS! that, more than likely, will never happen again. It's not like, 10 years ago, running an ATI GPU would invariably confront you with major display issues because of bad drivers or network cards (Broadcom to name one) that were unsupported because there was no drivers available at all. This issue is absolutely not representative of what it is to run Steam on Linux. It's a sad bug that shouldn't have happened, that was taken out of context, imo.
5 Likes, Who?
This is a distraction move. Where's the news about the Steam package being fixed and the reason it was published without being tested? Because that's the real issue.A distraction move? No. Where's the news? This is it. I don't follow Pop for such issues personally to know if a package breaks, no one notified us, and now it's all solved so we've reported on it with details that we have.
I didn't mean a distraction move from your part but from System76. That's the news they're spreading and want everybody to talk about. They're trying to divert our attention from the real issue. I'm not blaming you, although we should try to look through the smoke curtain.
Last edited by berarma on 10 November 2021 at 9:49 pm UTC
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The fact this slipped through System 76's internal testing is absolutely inexcusable!
Also, who actually ignores warning messages and proceeds regardless?
What other options does he have as an "uninformed user"? You get the information that some packages are being removed. So? Then he would have to know what this packages are actually good for. And as already mentioned: He had no other option than to hit "y" if he wanted Steam.
He could have asked Anthony, but being stubborn, didn't.
I get the impression Linus is not as clueless as he makes out and ultimately manipulated his viewers.
Well that part was actually part of their "challenge" in that they should approach it as "normies" and not as some one that have instant access to an expert.
0 Likes
Great summary PLB. LTT (Linus Tech Tips) started out with a big focus on hardware with an audience who were home PC builders and PC Master Race builders. He used to do a lot of reviews on different hardware components and provide tech tips for builders. For example he has a really interesting episode where he compares thermal paste application methods and compounds to see if there is a big difference.Linus strikes me as being in that sweet spot where he knows a lot about computer tech stuff in general, which makes him confident, but doesn't actually know enough about Linux to justify his confidence in that specific setting. So he can confidently make a big mistake. If it was me, I don't have a ton of knowledge, so I don't have the confidence, but I do know enough to know that screwing up on the command line on Linux can have big results. So I wouldn't have done what he did.Also, who actually ignores warning messages and proceeds regardless?
People wanting to prove a point. The less cynical answer: "Windows people that are conditioned to ignore things like UAC and just click next->next->next regardless".
To be fair, in his case not having Steam would be almost as serious as not having a desktop--the main point of him having a desktop was to play games on Steam, so if the desktop won't let him install Steam it's kind of pointless. And it was a fresh install with no personal files on the hard drive, 'cause he'd switched to a brand new one--the "hardware guy" approach to security. So risking things going wrong was a small penalty, and potentially getting Steam by running that risk was a big reward. So where for most people, installing one package would be way less important than the chance of screwing up their system, he could be like "Sure, why not?"
The saddest part of that video to me is when his partner (who used Mint) pre-apologized to the Linux community for potentially offending them for any missteps he might take and how he was worried about "Linux Chads" berating him for it. I mean that's just sad and unfortunately a lot of comments in this thread completely reinforce his fear.
In my opinion, if Linux gamers (and Linux users in general) really want greater adoption, then the community needs to be a lot kinder, understanding, and more welcoming. Digging into tribalism, distro slagging, using denigrating terms to describe "windows users", and reinforcing an "us vs them" team mentality is not going to win hearts and minds. If someone is overly harsh and beats a puppy, it will turn on them and always fear them. Is that really the environment and direction we want to take? Is that how the community in general wants to be perceived?
Well you claim that, but there isn't even a single comment on Luke in this thread at all (unless I missed one?). So no, his fear was completely unreasonable (at least to me).
2 Likes, Who?
Pop OS must have hundreds of thousands of users—no, scratch that, it likely has over a million users. The number of users who brick their desktop environment by installing Steam must be very small, otherwise the forums, support channels, Github etc. would be chock-full of complaints. So this is literally a 1/100,000 bug and not representative of Pop (or other Linux distros) at all. Seriously, I’ve been using Linux for the better part of 10 years, and never once has installing a package uninstalled my entire desktop environment. Shit, even obscure PPAs and AUR packages didn’t brick my system (a `ppa-purge` always fixed it).
I understand that the only reason this happened is because Linus didn’t update the fresh install and there was something wrong with Launchpad that day.
I understand that the only reason this happened is because Linus didn’t update the fresh install and there was something wrong with Launchpad that day.
2 Likes, Who?
I tried popos and it was the same garbage as ubuntu. After some update the system got broken. From my experience manjaro is far better choice then anything Debian based. Turd is a turd no matter how much chocolate topping you put on
This kind of comment is unhelpful and, frankly, deluded. I've said it before - it's insanely frustrating to see such a small niche shitting on another niche just to get one over on the other 'side'. Grow up.
No, I just have an opinion, negative one and it's coming from personal experience. I tried many distros for big period of time. The last time I used ubuntu was for 8 mounts and frankly this time was better then previous time because now they use systemd and my system boot for adequate time yet many of their packages are not linked to most recent version of their libc or other crucial lib which lead to crashes or undefined behavior. I stopped using it after system get broken after update, similarly to what happen to Linus with pop os (not like I blame apt)
I don't even remember why I stop using popos but in the beginning I was so enthusiastic that I even donate money to the project and only after 4 mounts I quit it forever
Well now I have to step in here and be the big bad toxic "well it works for me" guy. There is simply no possibility that what you wrote could be true, none of the libs (including libc) are updated in that manner in Ubuntu nor on Debian. The version of the lib to use is chosen during the feature freeze some two months before release and then it will remain throughout the entire lifetime of the version of Ubuntu, updates after that fact are not ABI/API breaking in nature and will only be for backported fixes.
And this have been true since their first release (4.10) back in 2004. Now I don't doubt that you had problems, but they did not originate by packages not being built for the included version of libc or other libraries. Did you by chance add some external repositories like PPA:s or downloaded external .deb files?
8 Likes, Who?
There was nothing that Pop could have done here, except having 100% bug-free software 100% of the time, which is impossible.
If Linus has updated his package list, he wouldn't have had the problem. If Linus had just waited till the next day, he wouldn't have had the problem. If Linus had asked for help, he wouldn't have had the problem. The GUI prevented him from breaking his system. Those are the solutions for the new user that Linus claims that he wants to emulate.
Instead, he went into the command line and ran a command, read the output that said it would break everything and should not be done unless the user knew exactly what they were doing (which, obviously he doesn't), and typed out a specific phrase to do it anyway. Those are the actions of someone who's already said that they want an excuse to use Arch and wants some controversy to drive engagement and therefore revenue, rather than the actions of a new user that genuinely wants to use Linux.
Even after he'd broken everything, he managed to get to a console login. If he'd asked anyone for help at that point, or simply wanted to fix it himself, he could have used sudo apt install pop-desktop to get back to where he was. But he got his "engaging" content, and he got his excuse to run something Arch-based, so he didn't bother.
If Linus has updated his package list, he wouldn't have had the problem. If Linus had just waited till the next day, he wouldn't have had the problem. If Linus had asked for help, he wouldn't have had the problem. The GUI prevented him from breaking his system. Those are the solutions for the new user that Linus claims that he wants to emulate.
Instead, he went into the command line and ran a command, read the output that said it would break everything and should not be done unless the user knew exactly what they were doing (which, obviously he doesn't), and typed out a specific phrase to do it anyway. Those are the actions of someone who's already said that they want an excuse to use Arch and wants some controversy to drive engagement and therefore revenue, rather than the actions of a new user that genuinely wants to use Linux.
Even after he'd broken everything, he managed to get to a console login. If he'd asked anyone for help at that point, or simply wanted to fix it himself, he could have used sudo apt install pop-desktop to get back to where he was. But he got his "engaging" content, and he got his excuse to run something Arch-based, so he didn't bother.
8 Likes, Who?
AussieEevee Nov 11, 2021
If Linus has updated his package list, he wouldn't have had the problem.With all due respect, please stop saying this, Linux Community. The problem was a broken package, which would have happened, no matter what Linus did. He should have read the warning, it is true, but none of this was his fault. The fault was 100% on that broken package.
But he got his "engaging" content, and he got his excuse to run something Arch-based, so he didn't bother.
While I am equally disappointed he gave up on the Ubuntu-based distros, This isn't helpful. A normal user is not going to run a command in the terminal to fix something that should not have broken, and they're not going to want to run to the interwebs to get help with a broken install.
If Linus was the everyday user that he's trying to emulate, the normal user would have gone back to Windows at this point... and I can't say I blame them. Pop screwed up with that broken package that borked the system, and I hope they review their package review process to ensure it doesn't happen again.
In short... none of that was his fault, other than ignoring a warning message... which the average user would have also done.
Someone I was watching on YouTube said that the message should have been highlighted to stand out more. I agree.
2 Likes, Who?
questioner9 Nov 11, 2021
I just watched the video and it was quite entertaining! Having read the comments on this thead beforehand I was expecting much worse 
.
I think it's pretty positive exposure for Linux overall, a popular YT channel with two presenters newly using Linux for a month. Indeed Linus had some problems with Pop!_OS as discussed above and then sound in Manjaro not working, but his co-presenter Luke had very smooth sailing with Linux Mint.
This is only the first episode of a series and in it both presenters ultimately got their chosen OS installed, Nvidea drivers, Steam installed and native linux games working (albeit one OS without sound). Also Linus did show his Windows start menu bugging out when he went to shutdown at the start of the video as a reminder Windows isn't flawless either.
I expect/hope Linus will fix his sound next episode and then hopefully the rest of the series these teething problems will be forgotten and most viewers will see the OSes hold their own against Windows plus it's fairly straightforward to game on Linux. As either there is Native or Wine/Proton works for most games these days, but I guess it depends what games they try.
It is unfortunate for Pop!_OS specifically that they had this Steam package issue at the wrong moment (not that there is a right moment). Linus did ignore a warning message but also I think that would be normal behaviour for many new users who aren't familiar with Linux and just want to do 'whatever' to get Steam installed and running. I don't think he was unfair and did also say at the end of the video he had missed/ignored the warning, and has a pinned comment that it is now fixed.
.I think it's pretty positive exposure for Linux overall, a popular YT channel with two presenters newly using Linux for a month. Indeed Linus had some problems with Pop!_OS as discussed above and then sound in Manjaro not working, but his co-presenter Luke had very smooth sailing with Linux Mint.
This is only the first episode of a series and in it both presenters ultimately got their chosen OS installed, Nvidea drivers, Steam installed and native linux games working (albeit one OS without sound). Also Linus did show his Windows start menu bugging out when he went to shutdown at the start of the video as a reminder Windows isn't flawless either.
I expect/hope Linus will fix his sound next episode and then hopefully the rest of the series these teething problems will be forgotten and most viewers will see the OSes hold their own against Windows plus it's fairly straightforward to game on Linux. As either there is Native or Wine/Proton works for most games these days, but I guess it depends what games they try.
It is unfortunate for Pop!_OS specifically that they had this Steam package issue at the wrong moment (not that there is a right moment). Linus did ignore a warning message but also I think that would be normal behaviour for many new users who aren't familiar with Linux and just want to do 'whatever' to get Steam installed and running. I don't think he was unfair and did also say at the end of the video he had missed/ignored the warning, and has a pinned comment that it is now fixed.
5 Likes, Who?
A normal user is not going to run a command in the terminal to fix something that should not have broken
He ran the command in the terminal to break it. If he'd stuck with the GUI he would not have broken it.
It was a temporary packaging bug (fixed within a couple of hours, as I understand it). Yes, it's unfortunate that it happened, but turning that into removing xorg was Linus' choice. He literally typed in "yes, do as I say!" when his computer told him that removing xorg was potentially harmful and "should NOT be done unless you know what you're doing." From the command line, which you say normal users won't use.
Last edited by CatKiller on 11 November 2021 at 1:16 am UTC
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The thing we should keep in mind is this: Linus owes us nothing.
There he is, he has a stated goal of setting up a Linux desktop and getting to the point of running a game on Steam. He installs a Linux desktop, tries to install Steam, and it won't, and he tries, not very astutely, to install Steam a different way, and that last attempt borks his install.
And he is in the entertainment business, and has already mused publicly about the rough nature of the arc he expects: Episode 1, pissed off with things being different and being unable to make things work; Episode 2, things feeling much better, gotten used to it; Episode 3, overall conclusions and stuff. Along those lines.
And Pop!OS hands him on a silver platter this decidedly entertaining "not working" stuff at the core of his stated goal, to rant about entertainingly. What's he supposed to do, shut up about it? Bend over backwards to tone his response down to be more boring?
Really, he doesn't owe us that. He's not our publicist. We can bitch that he should have done stuff differently, but the fact remains that if Steam had just installed properly in the first place, as it should have, it would have been a quite different video.
There he is, he has a stated goal of setting up a Linux desktop and getting to the point of running a game on Steam. He installs a Linux desktop, tries to install Steam, and it won't, and he tries, not very astutely, to install Steam a different way, and that last attempt borks his install.
And he is in the entertainment business, and has already mused publicly about the rough nature of the arc he expects: Episode 1, pissed off with things being different and being unable to make things work; Episode 2, things feeling much better, gotten used to it; Episode 3, overall conclusions and stuff. Along those lines.
And Pop!OS hands him on a silver platter this decidedly entertaining "not working" stuff at the core of his stated goal, to rant about entertainingly. What's he supposed to do, shut up about it? Bend over backwards to tone his response down to be more boring?
Really, he doesn't owe us that. He's not our publicist. We can bitch that he should have done stuff differently, but the fact remains that if Steam had just installed properly in the first place, as it should have, it would have been a quite different video.
11 Likes, Who?
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