There's been a huge amount of talk recently about switching to Linux for gaming, thanks to the challenge from Linus Tech Tips (YouTube) where two of their people tried the full-switch but it didn't go so well for Linus and Pop!_OS. Now, System76 are trying to improve.
It was pretty unfortunate that as Linus was going to install Steam, Pop's packaging had some sort of breakage that wasn't quite picked up and Linus ended up hosing the Pop desktop install. You can easily do some finger-pointing on where the real blame lies here from Pop not ensuring a major package like Steam works correctly before it's pushed to users, to Linus ignoring the (what should be) pretty-clear warning message:
Oh no, please, Linus — don't do it! Linus did it.
The point remains the same regardless, and throwing around pointy-fingers isn't really helpful. It shouldn't have happened, it's as simple as that. Loading up the Pop!_Shop GUI and telling it to install Steam should have been enough. Going by what System76 engineer Jeremy Soller said on Twitter, the cause was this:
"For some reason, an i386 version of a package was never published on Launchpad. Steam being an i386 package, when trying to install it, it had to downgrade that package to the Ubuntu version to resolve dependencies, which removed Pop!_OS packages.".
One thing System76 has now done to prevent such almighty breakage in future, is to patch APT (the package manager), in Pop to prevent users being able to see the "Yes, do as I say!" prompt by default. Unless, they add a special file to actually enable it. On top of that, another System76 developer Jacob Kauffmann mentioned on GitHub their plans to "make further improvements" to the Pop!_Shop GUI so that "users don't have to fall back to the terminal in the first place". Sounds like lessons learned, and hopefully smooth sailing for users in future.
Update: a new version of APT brings in its own improvements for this.
Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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I installed kubuntu on a random secondhand samsung notebook (for my kids) and was impressed that everything just worked out the box. Even the iGPU/dGPU switching was flawless. (Intel IvyBridge/AMD GCN1.0)
Could play games I didn't expect it to run.
It's like nvidia is holding back Linux adoption because of their software policies.
Back in the early days, they were the best option, but definitely not anymore.
Could play games I didn't expect it to run.
It's like nvidia is holding back Linux adoption because of their software policies.
Back in the early days, they were the best option, but definitely not anymore.
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Cloversheen Nov 11, 2021
Quoting: GuestQuoting: F.UltraQuoting: GuestQuoting: TuxeeQuoting: GuestThe fact this slipped through System 76's internal testing is absolutely inexcusable!
Also, who actually ignores warning messages and proceeds regardless?
What other options does he have as an "uninformed user"? You get the information that some packages are being removed. So? Then he would have to know what this packages are actually good for. And as already mentioned: He had no other option than to hit "y" if he wanted Steam.
He could have asked Anthony, but being stubborn, didn't.
I get the impression Linus is not as clueless as he makes out and ultimately manipulated his viewers.
Well that part was actually part of their "challenge" in that they should approach it as "normies" and not as some one that have instant access to an expert.
"Normies" don't ask for help when they're uncertain about things? Because that sounds counter-intuitive.
That is actually true.
Your average user, sometimes negatively referred to as "normies", generally don't ask questions from experts for the same reason I don't ask questions from fashion experts on what colours go together. The imposter syndrome plays in here and we are generally afraid to appear dumb and be made fun of, especially if we are under the impression that this is something "other people have managed to do". Thus they usually only reach for an expert when things are broken and most often they are a bit sheepish and apologetic about it and genuinely happy that you, the mighty expert, takes time to help them out. Even though it is the fault of us experts that they run into these issues in the first place.
Having worked in tech-support with both your average home owner and with people who are experts in their respective fields I've seen this thing in action, and I read several studies about it in uni though I would sadly have to go dig through my archives to find any specific paper, haven't looked at them for a decade now.
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CyborgZeta Nov 11, 2021
I've installed Steam multiple times on different flavors of Ubuntu, as well as Debian (which is now my permanent home). I've never had an issue getting Steam to work, so I am quite surprised that something like this happened.
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Quoting: x_wingBTW, is certainly very important to also notice the issues that they other guy from LTT had with mint. The shit show that was his UI due to Nvidia open source drivers is also a big heads up (yet another fuck you to Nvidia I guess).If is about the multimonitors issues that he had, that's a common Linux problem, Nvidia or not, with the exact same type of fuckups that Luke had, wrong monitor order, weird mouse problems, plus games starting wherever the hell they want.
Being AMD user myself I gave up on using two monitors, because is yes, a shit show. They work most of the time (sort of) except when you need them the most. I just went through a good part of the day cursing at my two screens while trying to make them do what I want (basically having OBS running on the second monitor):
Can I please start the game on the big monitor? No.
Then at least can I move it after? No, I don't want that.
How about you let me to... No, I don't feel like.
Not even?...No.
What if?...No.
But?...No.
So is fuck you AMD or Linux I guess, just to be fair?
On Windows I can connect two monitors or more, and use them as you see fit, they simply obey you. On Linux is a fight between you and them. Of course, is Linux, and you have ways to beat them into submission, but that's beside the point.
(I guess it shows that I had a bad day)
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I use multi-monitor Windows at my work and while you're probably not exaggerating your frustration at the Linux situation, I think you're painting a far rosier picture of Windows multi-monitor support than I experience. Windows frequently open on the wrong monitor. My biggest annoyance is having my windows on the big monitor, unplugging for a meeting, and discovering that one or two of the windows are simply gone. I can see them on the taskbar, but they're obviously still on some invisible second monitor that doesn't exist now. Only option is to kill them and re-open.
When you plug that second monitor back in too - nothing moves back to where it should be. This is a pain on Linux too, even if you fix all the other multi-monitor woes there... but apparently KDE has some functionality coming down the line that will address this. I hate having to drag four windows back to the big screen every time I sit back down at my desk.
Scaling is quirky too, given that my external monitor at work is 4K, but the laptop screen is 1080p. And don't get me started on the screen tear on the 4K monitor.
I guess multi-monitor is hard, because I've never had a very positive experience of it, on any O/S. I avoid it whenever I can.
When you plug that second monitor back in too - nothing moves back to where it should be. This is a pain on Linux too, even if you fix all the other multi-monitor woes there... but apparently KDE has some functionality coming down the line that will address this. I hate having to drag four windows back to the big screen every time I sit back down at my desk.
Scaling is quirky too, given that my external monitor at work is 4K, but the laptop screen is 1080p. And don't get me started on the screen tear on the 4K monitor.
I guess multi-monitor is hard, because I've never had a very positive experience of it, on any O/S. I avoid it whenever I can.
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Quoting: shorbergQuoting: Guest"Normies" don't ask for help when they're uncertain about things? Because that sounds counter-intuitive.
That is actually true.
Your average user, sometimes negatively referred to as "normies", generally don't ask questions from experts for the same reason I don't ask questions from fashion experts on what colours go together.
I guess that's why you and me and most of us are never asked by friends, family and even close-to-strangers: "You know your stuff with computers, right?!? How can I ..."
Oh wait...
Last edited by Eike on 11 November 2021 at 10:26 am UTC
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Quoting: scaineI think you're painting a far rosier picture of Windows multi-monitor support than I experience.It is possible, true. I rarely use Windows, and when I do is for simple tasks. Still, that's the thing, I really don't remember having ever that level of frustration with Windows as I had with Linux multi-monitors, while trying to use some really basic features.
I do that in cycles, I start one day by connecting the second monitor, then get frustrated and remove it, and after a month I remember I have a great second monitor and would be great to use, connect it again, get frustrated again, remove it from a a month, and so on. I never learn.
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Quoting: dubigrasuQuoting: scaineI think you're painting a far rosier picture of Windows multi-monitor support than I experience.It is possible, true. I rarely use Windows, and when I do is for simple tasks. Still, that's the thing, I really don't remember having ever that level of frustration with Windows as I had with Linux multi-monitors, while trying to use some really basic features.
I do that in cycles, I start one day by connecting the second monitor, then get frustrated and remove it, and after a month I remember I have a great second monitor and would be great to use, connect it again, get frustrated again, remove it from a a month, and so on. I never learn.
Yeah, it's definitely a shambles. I remember thinking, "magic, Wayland will sort all this". But it doesn't really. I think the bulk of it sits in the DE, which is why I'm now pinning my hopes on KDE!
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Quoting: EikeQuoting: GuestThe issue Linus had with Steam on Pop is why I always use the deb from the Steam website.
Good to see System76 learn from it though
I honestly got no idea how the package of the distribution makers could be worse than the one that doesn't know anything about your distribution.
Sadly, many of the Ubuntu packages are bad because they are outdated a broken. Only a small portion of packages from universe is actually maintained and not just synced from Debian during the release, then left to rot.
This and the intentionally bad Flatpak support are probably two worst things about Ubuntu and reason why I switched to Fedora.
Last edited by AsciiWolf on 11 November 2021 at 1:18 pm UTC
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Quoting: scaineYeah, it's definitely a shambles. I remember thinking, "magic, Wayland will sort all this". But it doesn't really. I think the bulk of it sits in the DE, which is why I'm now pinning my hopes on KDE!
My multi-monitor problems on my RX5700 were caused by the AMD drivers and/or firmware. Once this got sorted out (for my setup) the DE and X or Wayland didn't matter.
For reference https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues/929 - and after two years it's still open. Fun fact: The same hardware tested briefly with Win 10 didn't expose any problems with multi-monitor setups, but the screen went static in irregular intervals...
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