System76 patches APT for Pop!_OS to prevent users breaking their systems

The fact this slipped through System 76's internal testing is absolutely inexcusable!

Also, who actually ignores warning messages and proceeds regardless?

What other options does he have as an "uninformed user"? You get the information that some packages are being removed. So? Then he would have to know what this packages are actually good for. And as already mentioned: He had no other option than to hit "y" if he wanted Steam.

He could have asked Anthony, but being stubborn, didn't.

I get the impression Linus is not as clueless as he makes out and ultimately manipulated his viewers.

Well that part was actually part of their "challenge" in that they should approach it as "normies" and not as some one that have instant access to an expert.

"Normies" don't ask for help when they're uncertain about things? Because that sounds counter-intuitive.

They do but perhaps they don't have an expert at the level of Anthony nearby and they stated beforehand that they would not use him since it would be "unfair". And I also think that we come to the LTT videos a bit from the wrong angle, their idea with the series is not to determine if Linux works or not but as a challenge for Linus and Luke to see if they both can stand using exclusively Linux for a whole month.

The thing we should keep in mind is this: Linus owes us nothing.
There he is, he has a stated goal of setting up a Linux desktop and getting to the point of running a game on Steam. He installs a Linux desktop, tries to install Steam, and it won't, and he tries, not very astutely, to install Steam a different way, and that last attempt borks his install.
And he is in the entertainment business, and has already mused publicly about the rough nature of the arc he expects: Episode 1, pissed off with things being different and being unable to make things work; Episode 2, things feeling much better, gotten used to it; Episode 3, overall conclusions and stuff. Along those lines.

And Pop!OS hands him on a silver platter this decidedly entertaining "not working" stuff at the core of his stated goal, to rant about entertainingly. What's he supposed to do, shut up about it? Bend over backwards to tone his response down to be more boring?

Really, he doesn't owe us that. He's not our publicist. We can bitch that he should have done stuff differently, but the fact remains that if Steam had just installed properly in the first place, as it should have, it would have been a quite different video.

Agreed, but I still think that he can be criticized. I've yet to see anyone crucifying him, but then I'm not on reddit so I can't speak for any possible clowns there.

But there are more things to come, e.g in coming videos he will claim that it's not possible to handle root folders using the file manager in Manjaro (and that is a possibility, I don't know since I don't use Manjaro and it works just fine with Nautilus in Ubuntu) so he have a whole segment about how horrible it is that Linux now forces him to use the terminal to install a plugin for OBS (and apparently he couldn't find that OBS also looks in ~/.config/obs-studio/plugins so he wouldn't even need to be root in the first place even though a simple google would have told that [I mean I found out and I have never used OBS in my life, but then my experience with Linux told me that it probably would look in a place like .config or .local]).


Last edited by F.Ultra on 11 November 2021 at 1:38 am UTC

But there are more things to come

On the bright side, after they recorded the third video Linus said that once he'd settled in it was actually really easy to use, and Luke has switched his work laptop to Linux - not as part of the challenge, just because he prefers it for getting things done.

But there are more things to come

On the bright side, after they recorded the third video Linus said that once he'd settled in it was actually really easy to use, and Luke has switched his work laptop to Linux - not as part of the challenge, just because he prefers it for getting things done.

And I just saw one of their small clips where they praised the printer support in Linux!

I just wish they would get out of their "nobody should ever have to use the terminal mindset. The terminal is perhaps the thing that I love the most about Linux...


Last edited by F.Ultra on 11 November 2021 at 1:57 am UTC

I just wish they would get out of their "nobody should ever have to use the terminal mindset. The terminal is perhaps the thing that I love the most about Linux...

It lets me do anything on any of my computers from my phone without getting out of bed.

The change to apt that might make a difference (there's no sufficient hurdle that they could have put in front of someone like Linus to prevent this issue) would be to check when the last update was run before installing anything: if the package list is too old (say, if it hasn't been refreshed that day) then automatically update it before trying to install anything. I think Manjaro does something like that? There's no reason why it would be desirable for the package list to be stale, and people aren't generally on dial-up any more, so ensure that the list of versions and dependencies is fresh.

I just wish they would get out of their "nobody should ever have to use the terminal mindset. The terminal is perhaps the thing that I love the most about Linux...

It lets me do anything on any of my computers from my phone without getting out of bed.

The change to apt that might make a difference (there's no sufficient hurdle that they could have put in front of someone like Linus to prevent this issue) would be to check when the last update was run before installing anything: if the package list is too old (say, if it hasn't been refreshed that day) then automatically update it before trying to install anything. I think Manjaro does something like that? There's no reason why it would be desirable for the package list to be stale, and people aren't generally on dial-up any more, so ensure that the list of versions and dependencies is fresh.

Not sure how Pop handles this but the full ISO from Debian and Ubuntu contains packages so until you do "apt update" you can install the older versions of packages from the disc, this is done in case you don't have Internet access.

Not sure how Pop handles this but the full ISO from Debian and Ubuntu contains packages so until you do "apt update" you can install the older versions of packages from the disc, this is done in case you don't have Internet access.

True, but apt can already use the cached list if it can't contact particular online repository servers. So in the case of no Internet access it would simply try the update, not connect, and then use the existing list.

Not sure how Pop handles this but the full ISO from Debian and Ubuntu contains packages so until you do "apt update" you can install the older versions of packages from the disc, this is done in case you don't have Internet access.

True, but apt can already use the cached list if it can't contact particular online repository servers. So in the case of no Internet access it would simply try the update, not connect, and then use the existing list.

True, and if I'm not mistaken Ubuntu since 20.04 (or perhaps earlier) does an automatic update during the install process.

It's easy to be disappointed by the first episode of this series and view it as a disaster.

I found it to be absolutely hilarious. I don't care about petty squabbles. No distro is perfect, linux is not perfect, but that is not why any of us use it. I also find it funny how the linux community as a whole seems to behave like a corporate PR department, thinking of this in terms of a PR disaster.
I for one am excited for the rest of this series. I had a blast watching the first one.

Yeah, from my point of view it was a cautious success, and left a nice supportive comment on the video (which I'm sure will be lost among the 7,000 others) to let them know there are those of us cheering them on in their attempt. It's easy to overlook with Linus's situation, but Luke gets Linux Mint installed, gets Steam installed, and runs a game with no issues. In the first episode. His experience was basically boring (seeing as how no one is really talking about it), which is really encouraging! Meanwhile Linus manages to bork his first choice within fifteen minutes, yes, but instead of giving up for the day (an action I wouldn't blame anyone for doing at that point) he gives it a second go and gets a second distro installed. Sure it's got a sound bug, but that's probably something he'll be able to fix after a good night's sleep and a few hours of Googling, and will probably be straightened out in the second episode.

The overall tone was quite levelheaded and even, with no one smugly proclaiming Windows' superiority or Linux's inferiority, and no one angrily swore off Linux for life. I suspect (or at least hope) that with the public challenge to keep them using Linux for a month, by forcing themselves to stick with it they'll get over the initial hump of difficulties everyone new to Linux encounters and get into the smooth sailing regions well before the time is up. I'm sure they'll probably try playing some AAA games that don't work or maybe some complicated streaming setup that fails or something, but on the whole I expect the overall experience to be pretty painless after the initial few days.

I just wish they would get out of their "nobody should ever have to use the terminal mindset. The terminal is perhaps the thing that I love the most about Linux...

Stephen Hawking said that, when he was writing A Brief History of Time, his publisher told him that for every equation he put in the book he would lose half his readership. He ended up including only a single equation, and the book became a phenomenal bestseller.

I suggest a corollary: every time you require use of the terminal, you lose half your potential user base. Let's face it, the majority of computer users are only barely comfortable handling a GUI in the first place. Requiring such people to use the terminal is like requiring people who are barely comfortable with arithmetic to solve non-linear partial differential equations. I absolutely agree that the terminal is one of the best parts of Linux, and people should be able to use it as much as they want; but I also believe that people having to use will probably see Linux's fraction of desktop usage never break a few percent. (This is where different distros come in; you can have a range of distros from "never need the terminal ever" to "doesn't have a window manager", and that's fine as people can self-sort according to their comfort level as long as there are beginner-friendly distros for them to start off with.) So I don't think that's an unreasonable point of view for a new-to-Linux user...


Last edited by Philadelphus on 11 November 2021 at 4:38 am UTC

It's pretty embarrassing for System76 and they should reach out to Linus and work with him to get him to give it another try. Thought I think Linus has committed to Manjaro, lol. Now Manjaro devs are probably pretty nervous!


Last edited by TheRiddick on 11 November 2021 at 5:35 am UTC

I installed kubuntu on a random secondhand samsung notebook (for my kids) and was impressed that everything just worked out the box. Even the iGPU/dGPU switching was flawless. (Intel IvyBridge/AMD GCN1.0)
Could play games I didn't expect it to run.

It's like nvidia is holding back Linux adoption because of their software policies.
Back in the early days, they were the best option, but definitely not anymore.

The fact this slipped through System 76's internal testing is absolutely inexcusable!

Also, who actually ignores warning messages and proceeds regardless?

What other options does he have as an "uninformed user"? You get the information that some packages are being removed. So? Then he would have to know what this packages are actually good for. And as already mentioned: He had no other option than to hit "y" if he wanted Steam.

He could have asked Anthony, but being stubborn, didn't.

I get the impression Linus is not as clueless as he makes out and ultimately manipulated his viewers.

Well that part was actually part of their "challenge" in that they should approach it as "normies" and not as some one that have instant access to an expert.

"Normies" don't ask for help when they're uncertain about things? Because that sounds counter-intuitive.

That is actually true.
Your average user, sometimes negatively referred to as "normies", generally don't ask questions from experts for the same reason I don't ask questions from fashion experts on what colours go together. The imposter syndrome plays in here and we are generally afraid to appear dumb and be made fun of, especially if we are under the impression that this is something "other people have managed to do". Thus they usually only reach for an expert when things are broken and most often they are a bit sheepish and apologetic about it and genuinely happy that you, the mighty expert, takes time to help them out. Even though it is the fault of us experts that they run into these issues in the first place.

Having worked in tech-support with both your average home owner and with people who are experts in their respective fields I've seen this thing in action, and I read several studies about it in uni though I would sadly have to go dig through my archives to find any specific paper, haven't looked at them for a decade now.

I've installed Steam multiple times on different flavors of Ubuntu, as well as Debian (which is now my permanent home). I've never had an issue getting Steam to work, so I am quite surprised that something like this happened.

BTW, is certainly very important to also notice the issues that they other guy from LTT had with mint. The shit show that was his UI due to Nvidia open source drivers is also a big heads up (yet another fuck you to Nvidia I guess).

If is about the multimonitors issues that he had, that's a common Linux problem, Nvidia or not, with the exact same type of fuckups that Luke had, wrong monitor order, weird mouse problems, plus games starting wherever the hell they want.
Being AMD user myself I gave up on using two monitors, because is yes, a shit show. They work most of the time (sort of) except when you need them the most. I just went through a good part of the day cursing at my two screens while trying to make them do what I want (basically having OBS running on the second monitor):

Can I please start the game on the big monitor? No.
Then at least can I move it after? No, I don't want that.
How about you let me to... No, I don't feel like.
Not even?...No.
What if?...No.
But?...No.

So is fuck you AMD or Linux I guess, just to be fair?
On Windows I can connect two monitors or more, and use them as you see fit, they simply obey you. On Linux is a fight between you and them. Of course, is Linux, and you have ways to beat them into submission, but that's beside the point.

(I guess it shows that I had a bad day)

I use multi-monitor Windows at my work and while you're probably not exaggerating your frustration at the Linux situation, I think you're painting a far rosier picture of Windows multi-monitor support than I experience. Windows frequently open on the wrong monitor. My biggest annoyance is having my windows on the big monitor, unplugging for a meeting, and discovering that one or two of the windows are simply gone. I can see them on the taskbar, but they're obviously still on some invisible second monitor that doesn't exist now. Only option is to kill them and re-open.

When you plug that second monitor back in too - nothing moves back to where it should be. This is a pain on Linux too, even if you fix all the other multi-monitor woes there... but apparently KDE has some functionality coming down the line that will address this. I hate having to drag four windows back to the big screen every time I sit back down at my desk.

Scaling is quirky too, given that my external monitor at work is 4K, but the laptop screen is 1080p. And don't get me started on the screen tear on the 4K monitor.

I guess multi-monitor is hard, because I've never had a very positive experience of it, on any O/S. I avoid it whenever I can.

"Normies" don't ask for help when they're uncertain about things? Because that sounds counter-intuitive.

That is actually true.
Your average user, sometimes negatively referred to as "normies", generally don't ask questions from experts for the same reason I don't ask questions from fashion experts on what colours go together.

I guess that's why you and me and most of us are never asked by friends, family and even close-to-strangers: "You know your stuff with computers, right?!? How can I ..."

Oh wait...


Last edited by Eike on 11 November 2021 at 10:26 am UTC

I think you're painting a far rosier picture of Windows multi-monitor support than I experience.

It is possible, true. I rarely use Windows, and when I do is for simple tasks. Still, that's the thing, I really don't remember having ever that level of frustration with Windows as I had with Linux multi-monitors, while trying to use some really basic features.

I do that in cycles, I start one day by connecting the second monitor, then get frustrated and remove it, and after a month I remember I have a great second monitor and would be great to use, connect it again, get frustrated again, remove it from a a month, and so on. I never learn.

I think you're painting a far rosier picture of Windows multi-monitor support than I experience.

It is possible, true. I rarely use Windows, and when I do is for simple tasks. Still, that's the thing, I really don't remember having ever that level of frustration with Windows as I had with Linux multi-monitors, while trying to use some really basic features.

I do that in cycles, I start one day by connecting the second monitor, then get frustrated and remove it, and after a month I remember I have a great second monitor and would be great to use, connect it again, get frustrated again, remove it from a a month, and so on. I never learn.

Yeah, it's definitely a shambles. I remember thinking, "magic, Wayland will sort all this". But it doesn't really. I think the bulk of it sits in the DE, which is why I'm now pinning my hopes on KDE!

The issue Linus had with Steam on Pop is why I always use the deb from the Steam website.

Good to see System76 learn from it though

I honestly got no idea how the package of the distribution makers could be worse than the one that doesn't know anything about your distribution.

Sadly, many of the Ubuntu packages are bad because they are outdated a broken. Only a small portion of packages from universe is actually maintained and not just synced from Debian during the release, then left to rot.

This and the intentionally bad Flatpak support are probably two worst things about Ubuntu and reason why I switched to Fedora.


Last edited by AsciiWolf on 11 November 2021 at 1:18 pm UTC

Yeah, it's definitely a shambles. I remember thinking, "magic, Wayland will sort all this". But it doesn't really. I think the bulk of it sits in the DE, which is why I'm now pinning my hopes on KDE!

My multi-monitor problems on my RX5700 were caused by the AMD drivers and/or firmware. Once this got sorted out (for my setup) the DE and X or Wayland didn't matter.

For reference https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues/929 - and after two years it's still open. Fun fact: The same hardware tested briefly with Win 10 didn't expose any problems with multi-monitor setups, but the screen went static in irregular intervals...