Epic Games CEO says a clear No to Fortnite on Steam Deck

Quoting: F.UltraSo did a quick google (since Fortnite is not a game that I have ever played, and since I don't use cheats) and the first response was to https://www.iwantcheats.net/fortnite-hacks-cheats-glitches-aimbot/ which have a long list of cheats for Fortnite, that works on Windows 10 and Windows 11.

The cheats are sold for money so there are monetary incentives to break EAC which points back to my earlier post that Windows is open source if you are a hacker. Not only does the closed source of Windows help it in any way possible, we can also see that Epic is lying out their teeth, there is no need for cheaters to force Fortnite to work on the Steam Deck in order to cheat, they can cheat right now using Windows (and they also carry cheats for consoles).

EAC only keeps out the amateurs, and the amateurs wouldn't know where to begin to create Linux kernel drivers in the first place either so this is all moot.

About what I figured.
And OK, Sweeney can't really admit that EAC basically just doesn't work on Fortnite against anyone capable of googling and willing to pay for some cheat software. So he kind of had to tell some kind of lie.

But if he was going to lie about it, he could just as easily have lyingly claimed that it works great on Windows and would work great on Proton as well and enabled it for Fortnite. Or he could have told technically the truth, and claimed it would work "just as well" on Proton (which is to say, mostly not at all) and enabled it. But instead he chose to tell a different lie, that it works very well on Windows but would not on Proton, so he could justify not enabling it.

Enabling EAC on Proton for Fortnite would surely have resulted in some non-zero number of sales. And, showing lack of confidence in his EAC product may not have a huge impact, but it's certainly not going to help sales. So this lie is not one told for the simple immediate benefit of making a few dollars; it actually loses a little. The only plausible motivation, then, is he's trying to nobble the Steam Deck to hurt Valve, but trying to do it in such a way that he isn't just coming out and saying "We're going to block the Steam Deck from using our products because we hate Valve". I find it interesting that even some people here are falling for it.

I might be more shy of calling him a liar if it weren't for the "20-30%" comment made at the same time, which is a simple, black-and-white, direct, amazingly easily provable lie. If someone's willing to say something like that, I find it hard to give them the benefit of the doubt.


Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 8 February 2022 at 10:29 pm UTC

Quoting: F.UltraNot only does the closed source of Windows help it in any way possible, we can also see that Epic is lying out their teeth, there is no need for cheaters to force Fortnite to work on the Steam Deck in order to cheat, they can cheat right now using Windows

Amusingly, since these are Windows programs, and since the Wine people probably have never really spent any time making sure they work on Wine (I mean, correct me if I'm wrong here, just an assumption), there is a good chance these cheat programs won't work well, or perhaps at all, over Proton. Which would mean that cheating would, for the present at least, actually be harder on the Steam Deck, whether EAC worked worth a damn on it or not.

To make your competitive game available for Linux distributions, you need to suffer more cheaters. Who is going to take a proposition like that?

Well, it was fun while it lasted. There's no crossing this roadblock unless developers/publishers intentionally handicap themselves for potential profit while the rest of the playerbase complains because of the significant increase in cheaters.

Tim Sweeney's argument about the profile of the game doesn't make sense in the context of EAC. Cheaters will be attempting to bypass EAC, not the game itself, so their strategy will work for all EAC games that work on Linux.

Quoting: Purple Library GuyYou know, as someone whose only interest in Fortnite is strategic (lots of people would want it who would be buying a Steam Deck, so it would be good if the Steam Deck allowed it to be played, if I want the Steam Deck to be a success) it hadn't even occurred to me that actual existing Linux users might want to, like, play the game, and so there would be a downside if a solution didn't allow that.

my only interest is strategic too.
steam deck is the "killer app" for linux, so it has to run fortinite, but it would be nice if some people liked steamOS enough on their deck to try linux on other devices like their desktop.

speaking of it, there is nothing stoping nintendo, sony or even sega from making consoles using linux, in fact, they already did with nes mini, snes mini, playstation classic and sega game gear micro (relased in 2020)!
what if switch 2 runs linux, or maybe sony's ps6?, it may be tempting for then to relase an device that already have an big library of game, and while they can do that puting emulators for their own system, the pc library is much bigger and things like proton make ports uncessary, nintendo has strugled to get support from triple A thirdy parties even on switch that is very popular...
hell, we do have atari VCS too! and Intellivision amico!

Quoting: pb

Quoting: Purple Library GuyI have a question slightly to the side of the discussion so far:
OK, so Fortnite is a ridiculously popular game. But is it the kind of game people would be likely to play on a thing like a Steam Deck?

One of my kids plays it on a gaming pc (through GFN), while the other plays it on switch. Both are enjoying the game. So I'd say yes.

to be fair, i see a lot of people commenting that most fortinite players are kids (considering the ridiculous ammount of players, its impossible that all of then are kids, but most of then may be)
and guess what...
have we checked the size and weight of that thing? if linus from linus tech tips complained that his hand were too small to press some buttons with confort, imagine that thing in the hands of a kid!

i think this device might not be apropriate for kids, it may not be targeted at it either, so its not only not gonna direct compete with an switch, but will be too much affected by the lack of fortinite.

Disclaimer: sorry didn't have the courage to read the 8 pages ^^'

So.... I don't see the link between the kernels and the anti-cheat?! I don't know much about the ins and outs of Anti-Cheat software, so I'm doing some reading right now. Of course, I am no expert because I've read a few pages about it. But I am still an experienced developer, and have a pretty good knowledge of security overall.

I am intrigued to understand why the kernel variations are an issue for an anti-cheat software. I mean... Is EAC storing all the hashes of all the Windows DLLs, their variants, and the graphics drivers, for each releases, including the DLLs/drivers that are currently in development so that developers can test them? Seems like a daunting task.

From what I've read, the solution is more to have a unique signature send frequently to the server, proving that you are not running a different code and thus not cheating. A kernel (whichever variation you have) is basically a set of functions to talk to your hardware. I would understand that an AC software would need a very specific set of features and so the solution would be to support kernels starting from a very specific version. I'm trying to understand how modifying the kernel source code becomes an issue.

Also, security by obscurity has never been a solution. Take a look at HTTPS, it allows to have a secured connection even though everything is out in the open. There are mathematicians and researchers working on these problems (and finding solutions) since the beginning of the computer science.

So I'm confused mainly, and the answers Tim Sweeney is giving us doesn't convince me (I'm not sure Twitter is the appropriate medium for this kind of explanation, but it is what it is...)


Last edited by Creak on 9 February 2022 at 1:07 pm UTC

Quoting: elmapul

Quoting: damarrinHe doesn’t have to support all the various kernel configs, just the official SD one. Isn’t that what the chain of trust is for? Detect signed software and work, don’t and don’t.

in that case, fortinite would be an steamdeck exclusive in the context of linux...

Not at all. It would only be verified as supporting the SD kernel. That kernel would also be available for other users on other distros, so it would hardly lock FortNite (shudder) to the SD distro alone.

Any kernel, however, is going to have its source code made open to anyone who wants to see it. The best way would be to have FortNite keyed to recognise the SD specific kernel to verify that it's "clean", although Epic would have to bother doing that for every kernel update on the SD, and...I find it hard to believe that they'd be bothered, especially under this guy Sweeney's leadership.
Big sigh, but I don't like FortNite and battle royale games anyway. When FortNite comes crashing down (as it must at some point) Epic will likely go with it, as that is what mostly funds Epic as a whole.

Quoting: Corben

Quoting: Ehvis...

True.

My concern is now, that no developer or publisher will even bother to use the Linux/Wine/Proton enabled AC because of Tim's statement. Why taking the risk at all, if not even the company that creates it has enough convidence to use it in their own products and is vocal about it?

He kills two birds with one stone this way. He gets to not have to bother doing anything to make his big money-spinner work on the SD, and gets to undermine confidence in his competition. All with a single damn tweet.
Damn social media.

Quoting: elmapulhave we checked the size and weight of that thing? if linus from linus tech tips complained that his hand were too small to press some buttons with confort, imagine that thing in the hands of a kid!

i think this device might not be apropriate for kids, it may not be targeted at it either, so its not only not gonna direct compete with an switch, but will be too much affected by the lack of fortinite.

It's just a portable gaming PC, you can connect any controller and put the deck on the table or connect it to a tv. If the grip is too big for a kid, it doesn't mean the device is useless. Anyway lots of teens are pretty big I'd say. ;-)


Last edited by pb on 9 February 2022 at 9:20 am UTC

Quoting: damarrin

Quoting: dvdThe only thing that reliable stops cheating is a paywall

Uh, what?

DRM and anti cheat are equally dumb. And yes, while the paywall (hypothetically) doesn't stop 40 year old trolls from buying the game a 100 times, it's still more reliable than anticheat. Aside that, if you run a server, just have active admins (otherwise it's a waste of money.) It's of course only my opinion, but i feel like the need for anticheats is waaay overblown.

DRM is not a tool against ""piracy"" either, more a tool to restrict paying customers even more.


Last edited by dvd on 9 February 2022 at 7:03 am UTC

Fortnite won't come to the Steam Deck because it is the Steam Deck, not because of "issues" with EAC. I think it's that simple.


Last edited by Appelsin on 9 February 2022 at 11:47 am UTC

Quoting: F.Ultrathere is no need for cheaters to force Fortnite to work on the Steam Deck in order to cheat, they can cheat right now using Windows

Soooo... Your logic is that since they also have a challenge to tackle cheats on other platforms, they might just as well expand the attack vector?

I mean... That is what you are saying here.


Last edited by Beamboom on 9 February 2022 at 1:27 pm UTC

Quoting: AppelsinFortnite won't come to the Steam Deck because it is the Steam Deck, not because of "issues" with EAC. I think it's that simple.

The EPIC is driven by money, so if the Steam Deck will be success (and I hope it will be), they will probably change their decision.

They can even create a proper EPIC Store client for Linux, if there is a demand for it. Man can just dream :-)

Didn't read the entire thread tbh but - it would all make sense if his "Windows-obscured" anti cheat would actually prevent people from cheating. Obviously even that this doesn't work. Take Counter-Strike (GO) for example. There's a Windows AND a Linux version and anti cheat is pretty much useless in both cases. But at least it's there and at least it helps a bit. In addition, there's overwatch (the anti cheat community, not the game - which is a completely different approach but in my opinion it has a major contribution to the problem and doesn't depend on any platform. That, and AI driven anti cheat would be the key but also cost resources which is the whole point of not supporting it.

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: SirBubblesNot at all. It would only be verified as supporting the SD kernel. That kernel would also be available for other users on other distros, so it would hardly lock FortNite (shudder) to the SD distro alone.

You can't transplant a kernel to any other system like that because it's the build that's verified, not the source. It might possibly work in some cases, and would most definitely not in others. There are other reasons it wouldn't work and be pointless anyway from a technical perspective (let alone be incredibly bad for a multitude of moral reasons).

That's a bit of a problem, wouldn't that involve digitally signing an entire SteamOS install? What if someone installs a few flatpaks from the package manager, or removes something? Or changes something in the configuration?
Unless you meant something else, I think it's difficult to verify an entire distro as a single signed version, when there are going to be changes of some kind inevitably.

Also, regarding the kernel, that would entirely depend on how it was certified. Considering that is a moot point, as Epic aren't going to do it regardless, it's not a big deal.
I was only trying to establish that the claim by Sweeney about distro/kernel fragmentation was provably wrong in that way, and that somehow enabling Fortnite for the SD wouldn't lock it to SteamOS alone.

Quoting: pb

Quoting: elmapulhave we checked the size and weight of that thing? if linus from linus tech tips complained that his hand were too small to press some buttons with confort, imagine that thing in the hands of a kid!

i think this device might not be apropriate for kids, it may not be targeted at it either, so its not only not gonna direct compete with an switch, but will be too much affected by the lack of fortinite.

It's just a portable gaming PC, you can connect any controller and put the deck on the table or connect it to a tv. If the grip is too big for a kid, it doesn't mean the device is useless. Anyway lots of teens are pretty big I'd say. ;-)

by useless i mean to be used in it intended main use case (portable), it cant replace an gameboy when you are in school recess for example.

but you're right i forgot about the other use cases


Last edited by elmapul on 9 February 2022 at 4:10 pm UTC

Quoting: SirBubblesWhen FortNite comes crashing down (as it must at some point) Epic will likely go with it, as that is what mostly funds Epic as a whole.

better not hold your breath then, it may be a fad that people forget after a few days, or may become part of pop culture like pokemon, mario and zelda and be there to stay, forever.

maybe not as popular as its now, but with so many crossovers as they're doing, i think its very unlikely that they will lose popularity

Quoting: F.UltraSo did a quick google (since Fortnite is not a game that I have ever played, and since I don't use cheats) and the first response was to https://www.iwantcheats.net/fortnite-hacks-cheats-glitches-aimbot/ which have a long list of cheats for Fortnite, that works on Windows 10 and Windows 11.

The cheats are sold for money so there are monetary incentives to break EAC which points back to my earlier post that Windows is open source if you are a hacker. Not only does the closed source of Windows help it in any way possible, we can also see that Epic is lying out their teeth, there is no need for cheaters to force Fortnite to work on the Steam Deck in order to cheat, they can cheat right now using Windows (and they also carry cheats for consoles).

EAC only keeps out the amateurs, and the amateurs wouldn't know where to begin to create Linux kernel drivers in the first place either so this is all moot.

/me puts on his conspiracy generator hat;
Maybe it is less about the hacking of Windows than it is Sweeney & Co selling an 'API' to EAC so that people can create tools to break it, so they can cheat. I mean Fortnite should be making money with whatever means are necessary, right? And if the tools to cheat are sold, it's potentially to recoup any funds spent on getting access to the keyhole, so to speak.

Since the motives are there to make a ton of money, this is a conspiracy that'd make sense. Isn't Fortnite one of those 'Free' games? Got to monetize it from every aspect point...

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: SirBubbles

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: SirBubblesNot at all. It would only be verified as supporting the SD kernel. That kernel would also be available for other users on other distros, so it would hardly lock FortNite (shudder) to the SD distro alone.

You can't transplant a kernel to any other system like that because it's the build that's verified, not the source. It might possibly work in some cases, and would most definitely not in others. There are other reasons it wouldn't work and be pointless anyway from a technical perspective (let alone be incredibly bad for a multitude of moral reasons).

That's a bit of a problem, wouldn't that involve digitally signing an entire SteamOS install? What if someone installs a few flatpaks from the package manager, or removes something? Or changes something in the configuration?
Unless you meant something else, I think it's difficult to verify an entire distro as a single signed version, when there are going to be changes of some kind inevitably.

Also, regarding the kernel, that would entirely depend on how it was certified. Considering that is a moot point, as Epic aren't going to do it regardless, it's not a big deal.
I was only trying to establish that the claim by Sweeney about distro/kernel fragmentation was provably wrong in that way, and that somehow enabling Fortnite for the SD wouldn't lock it to SteamOS alone.

I was referring to that a compiled kernel from one distro cannot simply be copied into the boot process of another distro and be expected to work. It might work, and for many cases indeed will with a little bit of messing around, but it's not exactly guaranteed and there can easily be a large proportion of the OS that will simply fall over if tried.

Sweeney has half-truths in his statements, but there there are reasons that e.g nvidia might often need to push out a new driver to support new kernels. API, ABI, glibc versions, etc etc etc. It's certainly more maintenance effort, but he's also very misleading in trying to blow it incredibly far out of proportion, not to mention that any anti-cheat trying to hook into the kernel that needs such a level of maintenance is a _very_ Bad Idea(tm) for security.

Just a 'eac-dkms' package? :P Granted that would likely violate something, and people generally don't like seeing that their kernel is tainted with some non-GPL code :P

Quoting: slaapliedjeJust a 'eac-dkms' package? :P Granted that would likely violate something, and people generally don't like seeing that their kernel is tainted with some non-GPL code :P

That way at least people/users have a choice to use it or not!