KDE Plasma 5.25 is out now, here's some of what's new

What about the updates in discover in Steam Deck? KDE updates (and others) are popping up.

Can I just simply update the individual parts of the OS? Or will they be handled by the SteamOS updates through gaming mode?

Depends on your filesystems rw state. If everything but home is readonly, you can't update anything but flatpaks from discover. I'd wait for the official update from valve, though I really want to try it :)

Everyone should keep in mind that flatpak does have updates for libraries... but they don't touch the OS level libraries, they're just for that particular user. It's to try to solve the issue that most mac software and Windows software has, where you end up with many copies of the same libraries as they're bundled with all the things. Look at any of the flatpaks for Gnome applications, they pull in 'gnome.platform' or whatever it's called. I end up having to go through and clean up old versions of those, as flatpak doesn't seem to do a fantastic job of it on it's own...

So you're saying it's to try (and fail) to solve the problem . . .

Yup, pretty much! I mean you CAN install flatpaks via root user and share those libraries that way... but it's not the general intention of doing so.

As for Valve, they should have developed their own gaming-centric DE as the Deck's desktop experience is dire at best.

Here's hoping they eventually re-base to Nobara, with their own DE.

Yeah, that's not happening. With the gargantuan mountain they're moving, they HAVE to work with partners or nothing will get done. Valve has a lot of resources to be sure, but they can't build everything on their own. Happened with Proton, and naturally happened with their DE as well.

Even system76 and Budgie leverages existing tech, but whereas they both get to focus on one thing at a time, Valve has to make sure that not only everything works perfectly for gaming and whatever else users might do with their device, they still need to move fast as well or the Chinese brands will eat into the market they've expanded.

Between GNOME and KDE to partner with, KDE is just a natural choice for them. GNOME devs are notoriously hard to work with, if you don't align with the same vision and goals as them. KDE on the other hand is pretty content with building on what they have without breaking user's usecase. Sometime's that's not elegantly done, but it's better than having a headache every other major GNOME releases (unless you don't personalize anything, which is dumb because you try giving Fedora to a total Windows-normie).

Also, Arch is a pretty sensible choice. They are literally building their own platform to get away from the existential threat that is Microsoft, why would they let themselves be beholden to another company? And Nobara is new, it's driven by an experienced dev, sure, but it's new, it doesn't have the same community size as Arch, and it's still mainly reliant on a single dev. Saying SteamOS should be based on Nobara is absurd.

The simple fact is that Valve is a company who has to ship actual products and they are not incumbents to the game - they have to take the pragmatic choices here. And I'd rather they do that and make results everyone can benefit from over pulling yet another Steam Machine/Controller/Link.

As the biggest seller of Windows games, remind me how exactly are Valve "getting away" from Microsoft?
Oh that's right, they're not.

I think that doesn't really address much of anything the reply to you said, and in itself it is a misleading comment which vastly oversimplifies a complex situation.

As the biggest seller of Windows games, remind me how exactly are Valve "getting away" from Microsoft?
Oh that's right, they're not.

???? The Steam Deck?????

Microsoft is trying to bundle everything into the Game Pass subscription, which pretty much creates an ecosystem where you just keep subscribed to Microsoft and spend most of your time with their amazing value.

The Steam Deck, on the other hand, is a platform that heavily incentivize remaining on Linux, by making a very convenient, fairly-economic, and flexible device that's also not very convenient for Windows use.

Steam Deck, on its own, is making Linux starting to be part of the consideration, to the point that even Square Enix mention it for their FF7R on Steam announcement. Ideally, that would create a loop leading more Linux releases, enough to at least be a big enough market that Steam and Linux doesn't lose to the combination of Game Pass, PS Plus, and Epic.

Before Steam Deck, there really was a good chance that they'd get rolled over by the combination of those three, and it would have been out of their hands. But now they have good long term hope, and most of their fate are reliant on things that they can control - which is their own development of the Deck as a platform.

That changes things considerably as even if everything else went wrong and Microsoft does shit that threaten Steam's viability as a platform for Windows games (a real possibility before Microsoft Store's failure, but now brought back as due to Game Pass), with Aya and OneXPlayer interest in SteamOS, they are looking to have a platform that they could keep selling games to.

They're happy to keep selling Windows games, mind you, but the problem is if there isn't anyone to sell them to or if the platform makes it less viable because Microsoft controls Windows and theorically could fuck with Steam if they manage to find a way to do so without major backlash (see: Game Pass).

So yeah, they now have a platform that they also own and control, without the horrendous amount of commitment that Canonical had to make and then fail at. If they're already making their own platform, why the fuck would they want to let themselves be fucked by Red Hat (see: CentOS and the insanity that legacy boot removal was even proposed) and Gnome team (see: literally everything that happened since Gnome 3). Sure, they might want to make their own DE later on, but not even system76 did that out of the gate and even Canonical failed, and if they aren't doing that, then KDE is the only sensible choice over using yet another Gnome fork that stagnates.


Last edited by fenglengshun on 19 June 2022 at 8:20 am UTC

As the biggest seller of Windows games, remind me how exactly are Valve "getting away" from Microsoft?
Oh that's right, they're not.

???? The Steam Deck?????

Microsoft is trying to bundle everything into the Game Pass subscription, which pretty much creates an ecosystem where you just keep subscribed to Microsoft and spend most of your time with their amazing value.

The Steam Deck, on the other hand, is a platform that heavily incentivize remaining on Linux, by making a very convenient, fairly-economic, and flexible device that's also not very convenient for Windows use.

Steam Deck, on its own, is making Linux starting to be part of the consideration, to the point that even Square Enix mention it for their FF7R on Steam announcement. Ideally, that would create a loop leading more Linux releases, enough to at least be a big enough market that Steam and Linux doesn't lose to the combination of Game Pass, PS Plus, and Epic.

Before Steam Deck, there really was a good chance that they'd get rolled over by the combination of those three, and it would have been out of their hands. But now they have good long term hope, and most of their fate are reliant on things that they can control - which is their own development of the Deck as a platform.

That changes things considerably as even if everything else went wrong and Microsoft does shit that threaten Steam's viability as a platform for Windows games (a real possibility before Microsoft Store's failure, but now brought back as due to Game Pass), with Aya and OneXPlayer interest in SteamOS, they are looking to have a platform that they could keep selling games to.

They're happy to keep selling Windows games, mind you, but the problem is if there isn't anyone to sell them to or if the platform makes it less viable because Microsoft controls Windows and theorically could fuck with Steam if they manage to find a way to do so without major backlash (see: Game Pass).

So yeah, they now have a platform that they also own and control, without the horrendous amount of commitment that Canonical had to make and then fail at. If they're already making their own platform, why the fuck would they want to let themselves be fucked by Red Hat (see: CentOS and the insanity that legacy boot removal was even proposed) and Gnome team (see: literally everything that happened since Gnome 3). Sure, they might want to make their own DE later on, but not even system76 did that out of the gate and even Canonical failed, and if they aren't doing that, then KDE is the only sensible choice over using yet another Gnome fork that stagnates.

Is FF7R a GNU+Linux native game? No, it's a Windows game running via a compatibility layer.

Remind me again how Valve are "getting away from Microsoft"?

If Valve genuinely cared about GNU+Linux, they wouldn't require every game sold on the Steam Store to have a Windows executable.

They wouldn't effectively block GNU+Linux native only games from being sold on the Steam Store.

Microsoft could, if they wanted, acquire Valve or make it so upcoming Windows games break Proton compatibility.

• You don't need Windows to play FF7R. Sqeenix even boasted about the fact it's steam deck compatible as Liam noted in the FF7R article.


• Yes, Valve require a Windows executable, but again, that doesn't require Windows.


• I'm not aware of Valve blocking Linux native games - what are you referring to here?


• Microsoft can't "acquire" Valve because it's not publicly traded. Maybe they could make GabeN a huge offer? Maybe? But he's already worth nearly $4Bn, so money isn't his motivation.


• Finally, maybe Microsoft could (yet again) be anti-competitive and try to break proton compatibility, but since Proton is based on Wine and wine is based on re-implementing Windows itself... that's a tall order. Honestly though, they already do this - secure boot, anti-cheat, TPM chips, it's not really there to protect consumers. It's there to put barriers in front of people like us who want to load their own O/S on a PC.

Is FF7R a GNU+Linux native game? No, it's a Windows game running via a compatibility layer.

Remind me again how Valve are "getting away from Microsoft"?

Is FF7R a Valve game? No, it's a game made by some other company.

Remind me again how Valve has control of whether other companies build Linux games?

You make zero sense. You know, it actually makes it harder to keep a balanced position and keep in mind any actual shortcomings of Valve, when there's people just coming up with whatever nonsense to bash them for the sake of doing it.

[quote=Guest]

Is FF7R a GNU+Linux native game? No, it's a Windows game running via a compatibility layer.

It's a step by step. The last time they forced a Linux native was the Steam Machine, and that failed spectacularly. They needed to make Linux a viable target with enough marketshare, which means requiring softwares to work with it without adding work on the developer's side.

Proton is currently the best compromise that Valve has- and for any game using DirectX 12 and below, it works as a good stopgap to get enough people on-board to become a legitimate development target while other areas catch up. And I think it's working as even Epic has started to decide mention Linux compatibility.

Do you have a source on Valve requiring Windows release on their store though? As far as I can see, it's more of a developer thing, in that it really doesn't make sense to not release a Windows version if you want your game to be played by more than twelve people.

And no, Microsoft can't really buy Valve out, assuming they even want to which is important as they are a private company, without getting into an antitrust. They were already skirting the line with Activision, Valve would too risky for them and probably not that much benefit for them given that they'd rather push their Game Pass model which is rapidly gaining ground.

[quote=fenglengshun]

Is FF7R a GNU+Linux native game? No, it's a Windows game running via a compatibility layer.

It's a step by step. The last time they forced a Linux native was the Steam Machine, and that failed spectacularly. They needed to make Linux a viable target with enough marketshare, which means requiring softwares to work with it without adding work on the developer's side.

Proton is currently the best compromise that Valve has- and for any game using DirectX 12 and below, it works as a good stopgap to get enough people on-board to become a legitimate development target while other areas catch up. And I think it's working as even Epic has started to decide mention Linux compatibility.

Do you have a source on Valve requiring Windows release on their store though? As far as I can see, it's more of a developer thing, in that it really doesn't make sense to not release a Windows version if you want your game to be played by more than twelve people.

And no, Microsoft can't really buy Valve out, assuming they even want to which is important as they are a private company, without getting into an antitrust. They were already skirting the line with Activision, Valve would too risky for them and probably not that much benefit for them given that they'd rather push their Game Pass model which is rapidly gaining ground.

Steam demanding a windows executable is not a myth, though that probably still routes back to times when Steam only supported Windows. Now they could invest time into discussing the pros and cons of that and precious developer time in changing the restriction to whatever comes out ouf the discussion or just go on and do something important like further improving SteamOS (which is their most important product for us, by far).


Last edited by const on 21 June 2022 at 8:57 am UTC

do something important like further improving SteamOS (which is their most important product for us, by far).

I would have said least important. It's just another distro, of which we have plenty.

do something important like further improving SteamOS (which is their most important product for us, by far).

I would have said least important. It's just another distro, of which we have plenty.

Pretty much, but it's THEIR distro. And it's closer to something like AtariOS, where they have it default to a read only file system. Sure you can turn that off and mess around with it at a lower level, but I honestly think if you're going to do that, then you may as well just install your favorite distro on it.

Installing everything through flatpaks has advantages and disadvantages for sure. But I do think SteamOS is important in that if / when they release it, it may be rather nice on some of the more powerful NUC-Style systems.

do something important like further improving SteamOS (which is their most important product for us, by far).

I would have said least important. It's just another distro, of which we have plenty.

Did you actually try it? In it's core, yes, it's mainly just Linux, but Valve added a lot to the experience. Partly with their new UI that isn't open source, partly with very clunky bash scripts in the default users home, partly with how the system is preconfigured and maintained. Yet these things add up and make for a great package.
People love SteamOS on the Deck. I don't believe any other distro would have had that effect. Contrary, most users would have ditched them for Windows in no time.
On the other end, SteamOS has a chance to extend to other portable PCs, couch boxes, VR headsets etc.
Will I install it on my desktop? Never
Would I consider it or a clone/fork for a couch PC if get a new main machine? Absolutely
Would I put it on an Aya instead of Windows? You bet.

Up till now, people chose Linux for the OS and luckily we could also game on it. SteamOS can actually enrich the gaming experience.

do something important like further improving SteamOS (which is their most important product for us, by far).

I would have said least important. It's just another distro, of which we have plenty.

Did you actually try it? In it's core, yes, it's mainly just Linux, but Valve added a lot to the experience.

I'm not saying it's bad. But I'm not against distros in general either. Lots of them add stuff, and then other distros and desktop environments step up their own game. GamerOS adds stuff, too, as I understand it. So, sure, I'm absolutely willing to believe SteamOS adds a nice bit of user experience and is a good fit for the role they adapted it for. Although I put SteamOS as such in a separate category from the UI stuff that applies specifically to the deck--I see SteamOS as what you get when you go into "desktop mode". And really, that could be any decent distro, wouldn't matter much.

That nice SteamOS (as such) experience is not strategically important. The Deck itself is strategically important. Proton is strategically important. Even the Steam Runtime Environment has some importance. I would even say that the Steam Deck's gaming side UI, which is independent of the distro you run it on, is more important than SteamOS itself. SteamOS, particularly in the context of "something we want Valve to spend lots more of their energy developing", because it's an important product "for us"--no, SteamoS isn't important, and it's certainly not important for any "us" who doesn't own a Steam Deck.

do something important like further improving SteamOS (which is their most important product for us, by far).

I would have said least important. It's just another distro, of which we have plenty.

Did you actually try it? In it's core, yes, it's mainly just Linux, but Valve added a lot to the experience.

I'm not saying it's bad. But I'm not against distros in general either. Lots of them add stuff, and then other distros and desktop environments step up their own game. GamerOS adds stuff, too, as I understand it. So, sure, I'm absolutely willing to believe SteamOS adds a nice bit of user experience and is a good fit for the role they adapted it for. Although I put SteamOS as such in a separate category from the UI stuff that applies specifically to the deck--I see SteamOS as what you get when you go into "desktop mode". And really, that could be any decent distro, wouldn't matter much.

That nice SteamOS (as such) experience is not strategically important. The Deck itself is strategically important. Proton is strategically important. Even the Steam Runtime Environment has some importance. I would even say that the Steam Deck's gaming side UI, which is independent of the distro you run it on, is more important than SteamOS itself. SteamOS, particularly in the context of "something we want Valve to spend lots more of their energy developing", because it's an important product "for us"--no, SteamoS isn't important, and it's certainly not important for any "us" who doesn't own a Steam Deck.

do something important like further improving SteamOS (which is their most important product for us, by far).

I would have said least important. It's just another distro, of which we have plenty.

Did you actually try it? In it's core, yes, it's mainly just Linux, but Valve added a lot to the experience.

I'm not saying it's bad. But I'm not against distros in general either. Lots of them add stuff, and then other distros and desktop environments step up their own game. GamerOS adds stuff, too, as I understand it. So, sure, I'm absolutely willing to believe SteamOS adds a nice bit of user experience and is a good fit for the role they adapted it for. Although I put SteamOS as such in a separate category from the UI stuff that applies specifically to the deck--I see SteamOS as what you get when you go into "desktop mode". And really, that could be any decent distro, wouldn't matter much.

That nice SteamOS (as such) experience is not strategically important. The Deck itself is strategically important. Proton is strategically important. Even the Steam Runtime Environment has some importance. I would even say that the Steam Deck's gaming side UI, which is independent of the distro you run it on, is more important than SteamOS itself. SteamOS, particularly in the context of "something we want Valve to spend lots more of their energy developing", because it's an important product "for us"--no, SteamoS isn't important, and it's certainly not important for any "us" who doesn't own a Steam Deck.

Then we disagree. SteamOS and gameUI are connected in a lot of ways. GameUI so far is developed for the Deck on SteamOS, they are pretty much developed in sync. You actually upgrade the OS through gameUI and gameUI lets you even load up the DE inside. Both make the experience on Deck and if you put SteamOS on other devices, the experience will be pretty much the same.
Put SteamOS on an Aya handheld and map the Steam and burger buttons and you get a much better experience then with Windows. Put SteamOS on a couch PC and it will feel like a console. If Valve manages to make other hardware producers integrate SteamOS well, things might finally start cascading.


Last edited by const on 22 June 2022 at 5:29 pm UTC

do something important like further improving SteamOS (which is their most important product for us, by far).

I would have said least important. It's just another distro, of which we have plenty.

Did you actually try it? In it's core, yes, it's mainly just Linux, but Valve added a lot to the experience.

I'm not saying it's bad. But I'm not against distros in general either. Lots of them add stuff, and then other distros and desktop environments step up their own game. GamerOS adds stuff, too, as I understand it. So, sure, I'm absolutely willing to believe SteamOS adds a nice bit of user experience and is a good fit for the role they adapted it for. Although I put SteamOS as such in a separate category from the UI stuff that applies specifically to the deck--I see SteamOS as what you get when you go into "desktop mode". And really, that could be any decent distro, wouldn't matter much.

That nice SteamOS (as such) experience is not strategically important. The Deck itself is strategically important. Proton is strategically important. Even the Steam Runtime Environment has some importance. I would even say that the Steam Deck's gaming side UI, which is independent of the distro you run it on, is more important than SteamOS itself. SteamOS, particularly in the context of "something we want Valve to spend lots more of their energy developing", because it's an important product "for us"--no, SteamoS isn't important, and it's certainly not important for any "us" who doesn't own a Steam Deck.

do something important like further improving SteamOS (which is their most important product for us, by far).

I would have said least important. It's just another distro, of which we have plenty.

Did you actually try it? In it's core, yes, it's mainly just Linux, but Valve added a lot to the experience.

I'm not saying it's bad. But I'm not against distros in general either. Lots of them add stuff, and then other distros and desktop environments step up their own game. GamerOS adds stuff, too, as I understand it. So, sure, I'm absolutely willing to believe SteamOS adds a nice bit of user experience and is a good fit for the role they adapted it for. Although I put SteamOS as such in a separate category from the UI stuff that applies specifically to the deck--I see SteamOS as what you get when you go into "desktop mode". And really, that could be any decent distro, wouldn't matter much.

That nice SteamOS (as such) experience is not strategically important. The Deck itself is strategically important. Proton is strategically important. Even the Steam Runtime Environment has some importance. I would even say that the Steam Deck's gaming side UI, which is independent of the distro you run it on, is more important than SteamOS itself. SteamOS, particularly in the context of "something we want Valve to spend lots more of their energy developing", because it's an important product "for us"--no, SteamoS isn't important, and it's certainly not important for any "us" who doesn't own a Steam Deck.

Then we disagree. SteamOS and gameUI are connected in a lot of ways. GameUI so far is developed for the Deck on SteamOS, they are pretty much developed in sync. You actually upgrade the OS through gameUI and gameUI lets you even load up the DE inside. Both make the experience on Deck and if you put SteamOS on other devices, the experience will be pretty much the same.
Put SteamOS on an Aya handheld and map the Steam and burger buttons and you get a much better experience then with Windows. Put SteamOS on a couch PC and it will feel like a console. If Valve manages to make other hardware producers integrate SteamOS well, things might finally start cascading.

Personally I think what they need to do now is sell a small box version of the Deck that you hook up to a TV with Steam Controller 2, which would be exactly like the Deck's controller layout. I'd buy one for sure.

do something important like further improving SteamOS (which is their most important product for us, by far).

I would have said least important. It's just another distro, of which we have plenty.

Did you actually try it? In it's core, yes, it's mainly just Linux, but Valve added a lot to the experience.

I'm not saying it's bad. But I'm not against distros in general either. Lots of them add stuff, and then other distros and desktop environments step up their own game. GamerOS adds stuff, too, as I understand it. So, sure, I'm absolutely willing to believe SteamOS adds a nice bit of user experience and is a good fit for the role they adapted it for. Although I put SteamOS as such in a separate category from the UI stuff that applies specifically to the deck--I see SteamOS as what you get when you go into "desktop mode". And really, that could be any decent distro, wouldn't matter much.

That nice SteamOS (as such) experience is not strategically important. The Deck itself is strategically important. Proton is strategically important. Even the Steam Runtime Environment has some importance. I would even say that the Steam Deck's gaming side UI, which is independent of the distro you run it on, is more important than SteamOS itself. SteamOS, particularly in the context of "something we want Valve to spend lots more of their energy developing", because it's an important product "for us"--no, SteamoS isn't important, and it's certainly not important for any "us" who doesn't own a Steam Deck.

do something important like further improving SteamOS (which is their most important product for us, by far).

I would have said least important. It's just another distro, of which we have plenty.

Did you actually try it? In it's core, yes, it's mainly just Linux, but Valve added a lot to the experience.

I'm not saying it's bad. But I'm not against distros in general either. Lots of them add stuff, and then other distros and desktop environments step up their own game. GamerOS adds stuff, too, as I understand it. So, sure, I'm absolutely willing to believe SteamOS adds a nice bit of user experience and is a good fit for the role they adapted it for. Although I put SteamOS as such in a separate category from the UI stuff that applies specifically to the deck--I see SteamOS as what you get when you go into "desktop mode". And really, that could be any decent distro, wouldn't matter much.

That nice SteamOS (as such) experience is not strategically important. The Deck itself is strategically important. Proton is strategically important. Even the Steam Runtime Environment has some importance. I would even say that the Steam Deck's gaming side UI, which is independent of the distro you run it on, is more important than SteamOS itself. SteamOS, particularly in the context of "something we want Valve to spend lots more of their energy developing", because it's an important product "for us"--no, SteamoS isn't important, and it's certainly not important for any "us" who doesn't own a Steam Deck.

Then we disagree. SteamOS and gameUI are connected in a lot of ways. GameUI so far is developed for the Deck on SteamOS, they are pretty much developed in sync. You actually upgrade the OS through gameUI and gameUI lets you even load up the DE inside. Both make the experience on Deck and if you put SteamOS on other devices, the experience will be pretty much the same.
Put SteamOS on an Aya handheld and map the Steam and burger buttons and you get a much better experience then with Windows. Put SteamOS on a couch PC and it will feel like a console. If Valve manages to make other hardware producers integrate SteamOS well, things might finally start cascading.

Personally I think what they need to do now is sell a small box version of the Deck that you hook up to a TV with Steam Controller 2, which would be exactly like the Deck's controller layout. I'd buy one for sure.

Guess that strengthens my point ^^
Also can't wait for SC2.