Stray is the most wishlisted Steam game and it's Steam Deck Verified

Quoting: melkemind

Quoting: Mountain ManI've wishlisted it, but I'm not going to be an early adopter. I'll let others take that risk, and if the user reviews are positive, then I'll buy.

I would recommend all Nvidia users wait. Even if it's Steam Deck verified, that only guarantees it works on AMD.

I can second this.
Unreal Engine has some long standing bugs regarding VRAM usage of render targets, causing frequent OOM-crashes for nVidia users on Proton.

The AMD drivers just swap some VRAM to system RAM in such a case. This could cause performance issues if that VRAM were actually used (what happened in Old World when Vulkan was enabled - at least before the latest update, which I haven't played yet), but since those VRAM allocations in Unreal happen by accident and only remain allocated for one frame, they aren't noticeable to players.

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Mountain Man

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: kuhpunkt

Quoting: dvdWindows only, shame... When i saw the trailer it looked like a nice game.

Why is it a shame?

Are you asking that because you don't know the person's answer or because you do know and you're waiting for their reply so you can give them a hard time?
Proton is great, but I don't think there's any point to razzing people for preferring Linux native.

The reality is, Proton is a perfectly viable option for Linux gamers that, in many cases, gives native-like performance and grants access to hundreds of games we would otherwise never get to play on our operating system of choice. It's also a reality that even if every single Linux gamer boycotted every game that didn't offer native Linux support, it would not compel a single developer to suddenly produce a Linux version to take advantage of what is, by all accounts, a negligible sliver of the market. I wish it weren't it so, but those are the facts.

So, in the end, refusing to buy a promising game because it can only be played in Proton reminds me of the adage about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

So?
Some people preferring native Linux purchases is still incrementally more motivation to go native Linux than no people holding that preference. And it certainly doesn't do you any harm if someone else has that courage of their convictions. It will either have no effect or a positive effect, but there is no way it can have a negative effect. And if the whole Linux gaming community grows, and the "native strongly preferred" current stays significant, when the whole reaches a certain size it will have an impact.
So why always this rush to convince people not to do it? They're not cutting off your nose.

Disclaimer: I run, and buy, almost all native games, but not mainly out of political conviction. It's just that I buy games mostly when they're mentioned on GoL and look good, and up until recently most games mentioned here were Linux native games, and I have more games than I can play anyhow, and I'm not really into the genres AAA games are usually in, and the genres I am into are well represented natively on Linux. So I've made one or two exceptions, but mostly I haven't found much point to go for non-native. But I can't claim to have been doing it largely out of political virtue.

You say there is no way that avoiding Proton can have a negative affect on Linux. I disagree. Games bought in Linux and played in Proton are logged in Steam as a Linux sale, so people refusing to buy any game that requires Proton are, at least theoretically, directly harming Linux.

Quoting: Mountain ManGames bought in Linux and played in Proton are logged in Steam as a Linux sale, so people refusing to buy any game that requires Proton are, at least theoretically, directly harming Linux.

So if I choose to buy a native Linux game instead of a Windows game, how exactly am I harming Linux? Please explain. Nothing theoretical about this, it happens regularly.

Quoting: Mountain Man

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Mountain Man

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: kuhpunkt

Quoting: dvdWindows only, shame... When i saw the trailer it looked like a nice game.

Why is it a shame?

Are you asking that because you don't know the person's answer or because you do know and you're waiting for their reply so you can give them a hard time?
Proton is great, but I don't think there's any point to razzing people for preferring Linux native.

The reality is, Proton is a perfectly viable option for Linux gamers that, in many cases, gives native-like performance and grants access to hundreds of games we would otherwise never get to play on our operating system of choice. It's also a reality that even if every single Linux gamer boycotted every game that didn't offer native Linux support, it would not compel a single developer to suddenly produce a Linux version to take advantage of what is, by all accounts, a negligible sliver of the market. I wish it weren't it so, but those are the facts.

So, in the end, refusing to buy a promising game because it can only be played in Proton reminds me of the adage about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

So?
Some people preferring native Linux purchases is still incrementally more motivation to go native Linux than no people holding that preference. And it certainly doesn't do you any harm if someone else has that courage of their convictions. It will either have no effect or a positive effect, but there is no way it can have a negative effect. And if the whole Linux gaming community grows, and the "native strongly preferred" current stays significant, when the whole reaches a certain size it will have an impact.
So why always this rush to convince people not to do it? They're not cutting off your nose.

Disclaimer: I run, and buy, almost all native games, but not mainly out of political conviction. It's just that I buy games mostly when they're mentioned on GoL and look good, and up until recently most games mentioned here were Linux native games, and I have more games than I can play anyhow, and I'm not really into the genres AAA games are usually in, and the genres I am into are well represented natively on Linux. So I've made one or two exceptions, but mostly I haven't found much point to go for non-native. But I can't claim to have been doing it largely out of political virtue.

You say there is no way that avoiding Proton can have a negative affect on Linux. I disagree. Games bought in Linux and played in Proton are logged in Steam as a Linux sale, so people refusing to buy any game that requires Proton are, at least theoretically, directly harming Linux.

No, that doesn't work. They wouldn't be buying fewer games overall, just a different distribution. And the games they do buy also count as a Linux sale, obviously.

Quoting: tuubi

Quoting: Mountain ManGames bought in Linux and played in Proton are logged in Steam as a Linux sale, so people refusing to buy any game that requires Proton are, at least theoretically, directly harming Linux.

So if I choose to buy a native Linux game instead of a Windows game, how exactly am I harming Linux? Please explain. Nothing theoretical about this, it happens regularly.

It reduces the number of Linux sales for certain titles, which tells those developers that they were right to not support Linux directly. That's the exact opposite of what we want.


Last edited by Mountain Man on 12 July 2022 at 5:54 pm UTC

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Mountain Man

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Mountain Man

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: kuhpunkt

Quoting: dvdWindows only, shame... When i saw the trailer it looked like a nice game.

Why is it a shame?

Are you asking that because you don't know the person's answer or because you do know and you're waiting for their reply so you can give them a hard time?
Proton is great, but I don't think there's any point to razzing people for preferring Linux native.

The reality is, Proton is a perfectly viable option for Linux gamers that, in many cases, gives native-like performance and grants access to hundreds of games we would otherwise never get to play on our operating system of choice. It's also a reality that even if every single Linux gamer boycotted every game that didn't offer native Linux support, it would not compel a single developer to suddenly produce a Linux version to take advantage of what is, by all accounts, a negligible sliver of the market. I wish it weren't it so, but those are the facts.

So, in the end, refusing to buy a promising game because it can only be played in Proton reminds me of the adage about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

So?
Some people preferring native Linux purchases is still incrementally more motivation to go native Linux than no people holding that preference. And it certainly doesn't do you any harm if someone else has that courage of their convictions. It will either have no effect or a positive effect, but there is no way it can have a negative effect. And if the whole Linux gaming community grows, and the "native strongly preferred" current stays significant, when the whole reaches a certain size it will have an impact.
So why always this rush to convince people not to do it? They're not cutting off your nose.

Disclaimer: I run, and buy, almost all native games, but not mainly out of political conviction. It's just that I buy games mostly when they're mentioned on GoL and look good, and up until recently most games mentioned here were Linux native games, and I have more games than I can play anyhow, and I'm not really into the genres AAA games are usually in, and the genres I am into are well represented natively on Linux. So I've made one or two exceptions, but mostly I haven't found much point to go for non-native. But I can't claim to have been doing it largely out of political virtue.

You say there is no way that avoiding Proton can have a negative affect on Linux. I disagree. Games bought in Linux and played in Proton are logged in Steam as a Linux sale, so people refusing to buy any game that requires Proton are, at least theoretically, directly harming Linux.

No, that doesn't work. They wouldn't be buying fewer games overall, just a different distribution. And the games they do buy also count as a Linux sale, obviously.

I don't get this idea that you can only support one or the other. It's not a zero sum game. We can increase the presence of Linux across the board by supporting both native and Proton.

Quoting: Mountain Man

Quoting: tuubi

Quoting: Mountain ManGames bought in Linux and played in Proton are logged in Steam as a Linux sale, so people refusing to buy any game that requires Proton are, at least theoretically, directly harming Linux.

So if I choose to buy a native Linux game instead of a Windows game, how exactly am I harming Linux? Please explain. Nothing theoretical about this, it happens regularly.

It reduces the number of Linux sales for certain titles, which tells those developers that they were right to not support Linux directly. That's the exact opposite of what we want.

So let me get this straight: If a developer actually puts out a Linux native game that I'm interested in, I should definitely not buy it. Instead, I should buy some Windows game in the hopes that the developer might notice us and maybe support Linux in the future.

Do you perhaps see how this might confuse a simple penguin? Seems almost backwards, to put it mildly. To me it's pretty clear that buying a Windows game does less to help Linux gaming than actually buying Linux games.

I simply thought that it was adorable and was just sad it's not coming to linux. After all it seemed like an indie studio so i had my hopes up.

I really don't see how I harm "linux" by not buying games that cost almost as much as a months rent and provide no support for my platform of choice.

Quoting: tuubi

Quoting: Mountain Man

Quoting: tuubi

Quoting: Mountain ManGames bought in Linux and played in Proton are logged in Steam as a Linux sale, so people refusing to buy any game that requires Proton are, at least theoretically, directly harming Linux.

So if I choose to buy a native Linux game instead of a Windows game, how exactly am I harming Linux? Please explain. Nothing theoretical about this, it happens regularly.

It reduces the number of Linux sales for certain titles, which tells those developers that they were right to not support Linux directly. That's the exact opposite of what we want.

So let me get this straight: If a developer actually puts out a Linux native game that I'm interested in, I should definitely not buy it. Instead, I should buy some Windows game in the hopes that the developer might notice us and maybe support Linux in the future.

Do you perhaps see how this might confuse a simple penguin? Seems almost backwards, to put it mildly. To me it's pretty clear that buying a Windows game does less to help Linux gaming than actually buying Linux games.

I said nothing of the sort.

Quoting: Mountain Man

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Mountain Man

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Mountain Man

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: kuhpunkt

Quoting: dvdWindows only, shame... When i saw the trailer it looked like a nice game.

Why is it a shame?

Are you asking that because you don't know the person's answer or because you do know and you're waiting for their reply so you can give them a hard time?
Proton is great, but I don't think there's any point to razzing people for preferring Linux native.

The reality is, Proton is a perfectly viable option for Linux gamers that, in many cases, gives native-like performance and grants access to hundreds of games we would otherwise never get to play on our operating system of choice. It's also a reality that even if every single Linux gamer boycotted every game that didn't offer native Linux support, it would not compel a single developer to suddenly produce a Linux version to take advantage of what is, by all accounts, a negligible sliver of the market. I wish it weren't it so, but those are the facts.

So, in the end, refusing to buy a promising game because it can only be played in Proton reminds me of the adage about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

So?
Some people preferring native Linux purchases is still incrementally more motivation to go native Linux than no people holding that preference. And it certainly doesn't do you any harm if someone else has that courage of their convictions. It will either have no effect or a positive effect, but there is no way it can have a negative effect. And if the whole Linux gaming community grows, and the "native strongly preferred" current stays significant, when the whole reaches a certain size it will have an impact.
So why always this rush to convince people not to do it? They're not cutting off your nose.

Disclaimer: I run, and buy, almost all native games, but not mainly out of political conviction. It's just that I buy games mostly when they're mentioned on GoL and look good, and up until recently most games mentioned here were Linux native games, and I have more games than I can play anyhow, and I'm not really into the genres AAA games are usually in, and the genres I am into are well represented natively on Linux. So I've made one or two exceptions, but mostly I haven't found much point to go for non-native. But I can't claim to have been doing it largely out of political virtue.

You say there is no way that avoiding Proton can have a negative affect on Linux. I disagree. Games bought in Linux and played in Proton are logged in Steam as a Linux sale, so people refusing to buy any game that requires Proton are, at least theoretically, directly harming Linux.

No, that doesn't work. They wouldn't be buying fewer games overall, just a different distribution. And the games they do buy also count as a Linux sale, obviously.

I don't get this idea that you can only support one or the other. It's not a zero sum game. We can increase the presence of Linux across the board by supporting both native and Proton.

You just claimed it was a negative sum game. Please make up your mind.
At any rate, it isn't a zero sum game, exactly, but the optimum strategy is a bit more subtle in my opinion. People seem to think that either you think Proton is a good idea, in which case you should want everyone to use it and to treat Proton and native games interchangeably, or you insist on native, in which case you think Proton is a bad idea which will reduce developers' motivation to make native games, and should want nobody to use Proton or Wine ever.

But the best strategy is not for everyone to do the same thing. The Civil Rights movement needed both a Martin Luther King and a Malcolm X, a good cop and a bad cop.

Ideal is a mix. Proton is a Good Thing. It is a tool to grow Linux gaming market share. It drastically reduces the barriers to entry for Linux gaming, making Linux a viable gaming platform.
But ideal would be both for the Linux desktop to have a very large user share, and for that large user share to translate into developers (game developers in specific, but also software in general) targeting Linux natively, as a major target not an afterthought. This is better than continuing to rely on emulation for a number of reasons, from quality of the software itself to better defence against hostile moves; if software is made for Linux in the first place, it is not vulnerable to clever stunts by for example Microsoft.

Now. The obvious case: If everyone ignores Proton and refuses to use it and makes sure the Linux community is hostile to noobs that do, or worse if Proton or something like it did not exist, that would be terrible for the growth of Linux as a gaming platform. In fact, there's a strong case to be made that such growth simply would not happen, and the Linux (gaming) desktop would even decline. We need Proton, we need the Deck, its importance is hard to overstate.

But that doesn't mean the best strategy is for everyone to treat Windows games playable with Proton as first class citizens. If everyone did that, then no matter how much Linux gaming grew, there would be little impetus for developers to make native games, and Linux gaming would remain vulnerable to whatever Windows did.

Rather, it's best if Proton goes from strength to strength, helping to grow the number of Linux gamers, but a significant portion of those gamers strongly prefer native games. Say around a third of Linux gamers avoid Proton, or at least spend much less money on Proton games, strongly preferring native. If Linux as a gaming platform grew to around 18% of Steam users, then not making native games would lose you maybe 6% of sales. That's around the size of Mac. It's a significant motivation. Of course, we have to grow that big before the people avoiding Proton games matter, but there's no chance of that if they aren't a significant part of the Linux gaming culture now, and play a part in shaping that culture as it grows.