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CyborgZeta Jul 5, 2022
While I can support the idea of devolving more power to individual states rather than the US Government being a one-size-fits-all solution to every issue, to what extent the government should set the rules and to what extent the states should make the rules is something I remain unsure of what the right answer is. It's probably not a question someone like me is capable of answering.

The most I can say is that I am not a fan of states picking which freedoms/rights they want to defend, and which ones they want to disregard as lesser (or just show disdain for altogether); any freedom/right should not end at the border to another state.

And I'm not just talking about the right to abortion. That's all I'm going to say.


Last edited by CyborgZeta on 5 July 2022 at 3:07 pm UTC
Eike Jul 5, 2022
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Quoting: TherinSuntil 1973 was left to individual states (the voting citizens) to decide for themselves how they wish to address the subject matter and that right has now been restored.

How other way than to return the power to the people could Democracy be defined?

The funny thing about your comments is how you define the one thing (US) as the evil government which contrast the people's will, while the other (state) is the will of the people represented by a government.

Both is a government representing a majority of people. It's more people in the one case and less in the other, but either way you're at most a percent of a percent of a percent of those voting. On any case, the others are the majority. It might be the case (and I'd bet it is) that you feel better represented by the state's government but the federal one, but that's probably just due to our being the other party at the moment by chance. Both is a democracy. (Unfortunately, US politics seems not to be good and decreasingly so at representing also the minority...)
Purple Library Guy Jul 5, 2022
Quoting: TherinS(responding to purple).

You've always seemed like a voice of reason so I'll be kind to you in my response. It seems like many people are not aware of how the Colonies (er, US Constitution) determines what rights the citizenry has. The Constitution is a document detailing the LIMITS of the federal government. Everything not specifically enumerated in the Constitution (and its amendments) is the right of the individual States to decide. The overturned decision is not and was never defined in the founding documents or subsequent articles, and until 1973 was left to individual states (the voting citizens) to decide for themselves how they wish to address the subject matter and that right has now been restored.

How other way than to return the power to the people could Democracy be defined?

If complaints of "Freedom" and "our Democracy is being destroyed" are what you are referring to, then perhaps a good long think about what freedom looks like is necessary.
The thing is, I'm not an American so I don't have to worship the American Constitution. The Canadian one, for instance, is far better, and the Venezuelan one immeasurably better. The US Constitution needs some major updates. As a possibly-relevant example, the US Constitution does not contain equal rights for women. But it clearly should.

Well, this gets long, so
Spoiler, click me

Now, it is certainly true that the US Constitution defines the relationship between federal powers and state powers in a way that is intended to restrict federal powers. This is largely because in the US, the states were pre-existing entities whose governments wanted to continue doing their own things, committing their own injustices, rather than suffer the possible injustices of this new entity they were creating. They needed to make a federal government, but they didn't really want to make a federal government. So they tried to make one that basically wouldn't work, or at least, which would work for warfare and little else. They didn't succeed, partly because the politicians in the central government were, just like the state ones, powerhungry, partly because if a country's going to exist it needs to function, so workarounds to constitutional roadblocks had to be found. Note that one reason for doing this that they did not have was the notion that small states were somehow more democratic than large ones. Frankly, a big part of the motivation was the slave states wanted to make sure nobody interfered with slavery.

They also built the federal government to be fairly undemocratic (e.g. consider the Senate), and that part was fairly successful, so one might think that giving the individual states more power would lead to an increase in democracy. One would think wrong. The individual states are also very good at being undemocratic. Their politics are gerrymandered to hell and gone, just as deeply drenched in money as the federal politics, and of course the ways the political landscape is sewn up by the two major parties to the exclusion of all others are rooted in state institutions, which are carefully designed to make it very difficult for other parties to get on ballots or in general make any headway. The United States can only be called democratic if you squint real hard with a bunch of drinks under your belt, and that's true at both the federal and state level. And the results are similarly horrible; I'm constantly reading about some disgraceful, vicious abuse by some US state-level government, often something the state's citizens bitterly resent. There is then nothing sacred about decision-making going to state rather than federal governments (or vice versa); most countries don't even worry about that very much, it became an issue due to the specifics of political horse-trading in circumstances specific to the United States.

But the abortion dispute has, in any case, nothing to do with states' rights or democracy. In general, the right wing culture warriors have wielded whatever weapons come to hand while claiming them to be principles; when past judges have made major decisions, they say the idea of "activist judges" is terrible; they keep saying this right up until the moment they get their own activist judges in position. They back intimidation and even assassination by protesters when it comes to abortion clinics, but take principled stands against any protest around anti-abortion judges. They back states' rights when it's convenient, but use sweeping federal powers when they can get their hands on them. Even this very court, whose Roe vs Wade decision is supposedly all about states' rights, just struck down a state's right to regulate firearms. States' rights are a convenient tool to get their guns, gays and God stuff, not an actual principle they believe in in any serious way. Same goes for the constitution itself, whose stuff about religion they routinely ignore.

And in terms of democracy, polls are clear that the majority of voters in the US favour abortion rights, including majorities in most of the states which are banning abortion rights. Legislatures doing it were elected on other issues or other parts of the sort of right wing cultural zeitgeist that have broader agreement, or they won without majority support from the population because of that gerrymandering. But they sure as hell didn't gain power on promises of banning abortion, nor did they take a vote on the question. So, this decision is to allow state legislatures to better run roughshod over the wishes of their citizens. And that's democracy and freedom?

Finally, in all of this you completely ignored my fundamental point, and the real fundamental issue. You talk of what freedom looks like. I think freedom looks like actual people being free, as in for instance having the right to do things that they want and have strong reason to do. This ruling takes that away from a lot of people. It makes them less free. That is the bottom line, that is where the rubber meets the road--if you oppose actual people being free, you are not supporting freedom. Even if your point is that in theory, sometime in the future, somebody else might get some freedom as an indirect result of the decision to restrict these people's freedom, it is utterly dishonest to ignore the freedom of the actual people you are actually taking it away from.

And hey, there are times when I don't support freedom. So for instance, seatbelt laws--I'm all in favour of circumscribing people's right to ride in motor vehicles without seatbelts. There are other values and rights which need to be balanced with freedom. That's why the "Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society." But when I back restricting freedom, I don't pretend I'm doing it in the name of freedom.


Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 5 July 2022 at 4:42 pm UTC
TherinS Jul 5, 2022
Jeez, there are so many good posts to quote back at people but I'll just do this one for now.

Quoting: Purple Library GuyI think freedom looks like actual people being free, as in for instance having the right to do things that they want and have strong reason to do. This ruling takes that away from a lot of people. It makes them less free.


You mean, this ruling takes a law you cannot change away from the federal government and returns it to the people to vote in thier state as they see fit, right? Isn't that freedom? To change what you want as you see fit? The argument about big money pushing public opinion is valid, but voting is what separates some countries from others that choose to assassinate someone they didn't vote for (if the vote was valid at all, like in totalitarian - run countries).

Getting to the base of it is the belief of when life begins. Is it at conception? Is it only when that baby becomes self-sufficient? I could argue that I have some relatives who have still not reached that point after 30 years.

<s>
Let's just agree that murdering a human life is a Bad Thing. If no restrictions are in place, then why don't we make the decision fine for as long as we want? How about that 36-week point? Why not 88 weeks? Heck, let's just go for broke and say the mother can choose to end her baby's life up to 971 weeks? It's clearly not a legal human at that point yet. It has no rights, can't drink alcohol, vote, or own guns so it's clearly not viable at that point.
</s>
Illustrating absurdity by being absurd.

The US laws do give instances when murder is legal. Among those are defending your life, liberty and property, or to put to death an individual who has committed a crime so terrible that it must be administered as a warning to others that whatever act was perpetrated will not be tolerated.

I would vote in favor of baby murder in cases of incest/rape, when the mothers' life is in jeparody, or when the baby is shown without doubts that it is no longer viable. Should one of those examples happen to me or a loved one, I would want the options available.


Last edited by TherinS on 5 July 2022 at 6:31 pm UTC
denyasis Jul 5, 2022
Hello.

For discussion sake, I noticed several people commenting on the bottom of the States rights in regards to the Federal rights. I presume people are talking about the 10th amendment, which needs some clarification.

The Amendment references the rights of the states from the federal and is largely interpreted to protect states from being forced into federal programs. It doesn't directly have anything to do with personal rights. The Federal government can enumerate rights beyond what is listed in the constitution. There are debating philosophies in judicial circles on this, though. Some favor a strict, literal reading, while others favor something more flexible.

Regardless of what side of judicial philosophy one happens to be on, there are a number of laws and court decisions that have conferred rights Federally over the years. (Anti-discrimination, marriage, education, firearms ownership, etc). On top of that, States can confer additional rights above and beyond what is recognized federally.

It makes for a rather complicated legal landscape that people have to navigate. Some of that is due to the nature of the drafting of the Constitution. It's had a lot of "Compromises" between free/slave states, high/low population states, and some holdovers from the previous government, of which many of those issues aren't exactly relevant anymore. I would agree a stream lining of quite a bit of it would be nice. Also, since we're throwing things at the wall, I'd be really ok with a multi party system. I'd argue, more than design, the lack of a robust multiparty system is the biggest detriment.
Eike Jul 5, 2022
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Quoting: TherinSchange away from the federal government and returns it to the people to vote in thier state

You still sound like one would be a government and the other "the people". Both are governments, both are elected by the people.

I understand that people would like some stuff to be decided more locally. But I think both sides should be able to agree that abortion is not something for local decisions. (Imagine federal law would forbid most abortions, what would you think then?) It's a very general, even a global question, and there's no objective reason to have a different rule in another state.
Samsai Jul 5, 2022
The "states' rights" argument is basically just nonsense. It doesn't help anybody's democracy when the states that "benefit" from Roe v. Wade being overruled are ones that are horrendously voter suppressed and gerrymandered. We've also seen what this "states' rights" thing has been used to campaign for in the past and it definitely wasn't for something that would lead to greater equality and democracy for all.
TherinS Jul 5, 2022
Quoting: GBGamesAnd yet the rhetoric keeps getting repeated, and it sounds so innocent and earnestly about freedom when in fact it is often double-speak for driving the opposite outcome.

In a country that claims to value freedom as a whole, it makes no sense to say "And we'll turn it to the states to let the people decide if YOU get to have the same freedoms." We, in fact, tried that, and it turned out to be a terrible idea.

Unfortunately, that is the POINT of free states allowing its citizens to vote how they want thier state run, within the confines of some basic rules set in place at a Federal level. No one is being forced to remain in thier state (there's 48 easy to travel to) or being prevented from traveling to another state.

If one city decides jaywalking is legal and another decides its punishable by jail time, then don't jaywalk in the illegal areas. Nothing is keeping you from walking all you want, but jaywalking is viewed differently in the two cities. If the population of one city wants to make jaywalking legal, then vote into office the officials who will make that legal.

This decision is, in SPIRIT, no different than the example of jaywalking. The people can now vote for/against it as they wish and majority rules.


Last edited by TherinS on 5 July 2022 at 8:41 pm UTC
TherinS Jul 5, 2022
Quoting: CyborgZetaThe most I can say is that I am not a fan of states picking which freedoms/rights they want to defend, and which ones they want to disregard as lesser (or just show disdain for altogether); any freedom/right should not end at the border to another state.

That's exactly what is going on and I'll refer you to my previous post.
CyborgZeta Jul 5, 2022
Quoting: denyasisI would agree a stream lining of quite a bit of it would be nice. Also, since we're throwing things at the wall, I'd be really ok with a multi party system. I'd argue, more than design, the lack of a robust multiparty system is the biggest detriment.
I agree. As an independent, I fall on issues that align with one party, and issues that align with the other. Yet the nature of politics in the US means that if I vote for ______ then I'm getting ______ even if I don't want that and would rather have ______.

Of course, we all know that both parties would never, ever, accept a viable third-party (or any attempt at a multi-party) system. Especially with how partisan US politics has become. "Voting third-party is wasting your vote" "If you vote third-party, you're voting for ______." Ironically, disdain for any attempt to disrupt the two-party system is one of the few bipartisan things in Congress.
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